_Corth_ Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 completely inept article. Anyone who thinks the Empire, in the Old Republic era or the Galactic Empire, is not evil is seriously an uneducated troglodite. I hope someone has already explained why in this thread - I am too fed up with these threads to last through another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) T You must be playing your Jedi wrong... And uh I'd rather kill the Sith instead of allowing them to gut me in cold blood with no reason, which they'll do anyway except for rare exceptions(Scourge among them so far.) and converts. Whenever it's possible Jedi try to keep their enemies contained. Of course one can only go so far when the guy won't stop even after losing his arm. You kill thousands of non-sith playing a Jedi. Edited March 8, 2012 by Caelrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonezmccoy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 completely inept article. Anyone who thinks the Empire, in the Old Republic era or the Galactic Empire, is not evil is seriously an uneducated troglodite. I hope someone has already explained why in this thread - I am too fed up with these threads to last through another. lol @ troglodite. Classic. Pure win, that comment is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatB Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) That makes no sense. I mean, that's the equivalent of Dr. Evil asking for 100 Billion dollars in 1950. Remember when they mock him? It's like that. I mean, was this crap written by a 5 year old? He wants to kill all life in the galaxy so he has power over what? No one? It just doesn't make sense. That's the dumbest storyline I've ever heard. I can't tell if that's evil or retarded. They actually DO explain that if you ask pretty much that exact question in the dialogs about why would he kill everything, what would be the point if nobody is left? 1. He believes in power for it's own sake, not just to rule over people. From what I've read of the star wars universe, that's actually very much in line with one of the schools of Sith thinking. 2. There are other galaxies. Edit: That being said, from a certain point of view, the empire *was* the good guys. Which is what makes Anakins fall sort of believable. The republic had become too large, sluggish, and ineffective. Innocents were needlessly suffering when it could have been stopped. The Empire just took the "ends justify the means" farther than most are willing to take it. Most people DO understand, contrary to what Star Trek would have us believe, that the ends frequently justify the means. Modern civiliazation and the rule of law are pretty much based on the concept. The ends of haveing a safer society justifies doing nasty things to those we think violate the precepts of our safe society as a deterrant to prevent others from doing the same. Or killing those who are controlled by governments that are trying to do things to violate what we believe are our rights. Probably the best example of the ends justifing the means? Allies in WWII. You'd be hard pressed to find *anybody* who thinks that the allies weren't justified in killing all those german soldiers/etc. as they first defended themselves then attacked into germany. And yes, complete innocents were undoubtedly harmed in the bombings. Edited March 8, 2012 by GnatB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossos Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 The Emperor's plan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiiUh0PygvM I'm sorry, the Secret Plan by the Emperor is truely the dumbest plotline I've ever heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadsithdread Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 The Emperor's plan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiiUh0PygvM I'm sorry, the Secret Plan by the Emperor is truely the dumbest plotline I've ever heard of. copy/paste wow villains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukonius Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 That was a work of art. lol I have been turned from alliance to empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 ...The betrayal of the Jedi was not a moment-in-time action, either... it was a General Order, meaning it was something every clone trooper knew of (and were presumably ordered to remain silent about). Clearly, an act of evil. Just to clarify... General order 66 reads "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) GAR (Grand Army of the Republic) commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander until a new command structure is established." Order 66 was a contingency order in the event of a jedi coup, not a straight, "time to rule the galaxy, lets kill all the jedi now." order (though it could be read as such) I mean, they got handed an army, do you always read the instruction manuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtorhero Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Who says either side has to be the good guys? The Galactic Republic in Ep1 was utterly failing. It was, by almost any logical assessment, a bad government. Corruption and bureaucracy ruled the government. Slavery, piracy, and organized crime were commonplace throughout the galaxy. Planets that no longer wanted to be part of that mess were declared the enemy and war was waged upon them. So, the Republic is pretty messed up. But that doesn't mean the Empire was the happy solution. The Empire, basically, was one evil guy shaping events to create an opportunity to take over for his own benefit. His regime may have created more order and in some ways may have led to a "safer" galactic community. But that came with a price, not the least of which was some crazy guys doing things like blowing up planets. (though looked at without the lens of 21st century Western mores, even that is reasonably easy to see as acceptable military practice) So the Republic was corrupt, decadent, and ineffective. The Empire came along and replaced it with a totalitarian (though I wouldn't think of it as dystopian) regime. What came next? A generation later, the very same people who once went to war to prevent separatists from leaving the Republic now wage a rebellion against the Empire because... they... want... to... leave... the... Empire. The rebels are the new separatists. Conclusion: any government big and powerful enough to rule an entire galaxy probably isn't all sunshine and roses. Edited March 11, 2012 by Ellvaan Inappropriate Content (Pm'd) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roccobb Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 In the NJO (I know, curse words), there are questions about how the emperor would have handled the vong invasion. Many (even in the New Republic or Galactic Alliance, can't remember where exactly it was) believed that the Vong wouldn't have had a chance. He would have recognized them as the enemy they were from the very beginning and eradicated them before they ever got a foothold. The empire has it's strengths. Less corruption is one. But is the trade off worth it? Instead of 950 good senators and 50 corrupt ones, you get one extremely powerful, corrupt individual just seeking more power. And argue it any way you wish, but they destroyed a planet. How many other planets would they have destroyed? That was just the demo. There is no redemption from that, no matter what Luke said about his father returning from the dark side. A planet. With mostly innocent people. It doesn't matter if there were traitors on the planet. Lets take the above numbers from the senate. Is it ok to kill all 1000 for the 50 bad ones? Spoiler from Academy books:Yes, Kyp blew up an entire system. I still think they were too easy on him. At the beginning of NJO, he proved to be more of a reliability than help. Nothing he has done since Academy has shown ME complete redemption. It would have been more difficult, but they could have survived every crisis since had he been sentenced by the New Republic to a sentence he deserved. But that is way off topic... :-) The empire was bad and evil for many reasons. I could take ANY part of our history and show why the bad guy was actually good. In high school I wrote a paper demonstrating that, that Hitler was actually a good guy. (I didn't believe it, but it was part of the assignment...) It is all in how you spin stuff. I can't see the spin on destroying a planet. End of story. The empire was evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viewtifuldee Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Awww. Did someone escape from the insane asylum? Edited March 9, 2012 by viewtifuldee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boops Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 I was hoping for this kind of discussion. Next thread: Lightning McQueen suffered from Stockholm Syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordarn Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?page=1 An interesting article breaking down empire vs. republic - and why there is some confusion on who the real good guys are. enjoy, I did. Boop Arkata Mind Prison server Go ahead make yourself feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esproc Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 The empire has it's strengths. Less corruption is one. But is the trade off worth it? Instead of 950 good senators and 50 corrupt ones, you get one extremely powerful, corrupt individual just seeking more power. What makes you say that there was less corruption in the Empire? It was rife with corruption, as part of daily dealings and survival. And the Empire was expanding it's control, total control, and influence further into the the galaxy. No one left the Empire, unless they happened to blow up your planet. Is the Empire bad? Is the Republic bad? Are the Separatists bad? They are people. Look to the leaders to judge what is bad about them, not the people who may have no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitix Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I do think it's interesting that in Attack of the Clones Dooku promises limited government, unlimited free trade, and capitalism --this likely sounds like Dark Side rhetoric to Hollyweird liberals Because that would have benefitted the corporations such as the Trade Federation or Demask Holdings. The reason why there was a lot of corruption in the Republic during the prequel-era was because corporations were becoming powerful; there were even people representing these corporations in the Galactic Senate(such as Lott Dod) and as was shown in The Phantom Menace, had their own private armies. Let's not forget that Darth Plagieus and Darth Sidious were helping the spread of the corruption in the Republic as was said in the Darth Plagieus novel by James Luceno. If anything, the Sith behind the Galactic Empire in the movie-era are the reason the Republic slowly died from the inside. Edited March 9, 2012 by Aitix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Corth_ Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 just posted this in another thread on the forum. "To be sith is to follow the darkside Lucas always intended the darkside of the force to be evil and corrupting. NO ambiguity. Why no ambiguity? because he has said himself that his story was about the fall of a man and later his redemption. To work, there could not be any ambiguity about what the darkside was. this is why star wars is a powerful story - yet not that complex. i am tired of all the arguments that darkside is just about embracing emotion. no it isn't. it was always intended to be evil. no debate. " the empire is led, directed by and serves, the emperor and the dark council. do i mean to say ALL imperial citizens or members of the military are evil? no. but the empire as a whole, is evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deneric Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 To be fair, Pellaeon's Empire was pretty awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aginoth Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) Always advocated that the imperials are the good guys, and both my bounty hunter and imperial agent are lightsiders at that =P 2. Racism. The Empire and the majority of it's citizens are humans who are extremely racist against all non-human species (save for those that become sith lords). If the Empire would throw away it's purism and accept alien species, it would be a much more powerful entity. Technically that's Species-ism, not racism, the "races" within each species, especially the "humans" for want of a better name seem to be quite equal and therefore patently not racist. In a Darwinian universe such as the one portrayed the imperative is the survival and propagation of your own species and genes, there is no evolutionary reason to not reject, belittle, shun or undermine other species. Edited March 10, 2012 by Aginoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryan-Blitz Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 All of it is on POV. From one side, The Empire had inspired Galactic peace. On the other, they were war mongers that thrived on an iron fist (Vader's to be exact). From one side, the Republic inspired rebellion by ordering freedom, and then trying to control everything, while on the other, the inspired freedom compared to the CIS while keeping a basic system of laws needed for a functioning galaxy. The CIS was inspiring more freedom and actually a bit of Capitalism, while also re-installing slavery. The Rebellion cost millions of lives and the destruction of a planet, while also saving more lives in the long run. The Emperor used the trick of perception to take power. All know of its power, the powerful know of its uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGriffith Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I play on the side of the Empire, and I do recognize its virtues but if I were really living in the Star Wars world I would take the side of the Republic in a heartbeat. Freedom and liberty are a lot more messy, totalitarianism a lot more clean and tidy --yet I still prefer the former (as does everyone else) I do think it's interesting that in Attack of the Clones Dooku promises limited government, unlimited free trade, and capitalism --this likely sounds like Dark Side rhetoric to Hollyweird liberals Actually, that would be the neocon liberals, not the hollywood ones. Not that it really matters as neither exists in the star wars universe and inferring a relation between fictional characters and fictional real world politics is highly questionable. And also probably not something that belongs on this board (so I will not mention it ever again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalkingDinosaur Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hmm... So far in TOR the Empire has: Tried to annihilate all life on several planets.Enslave Non-human species. (With the exception of being strong in the force or a Chiss.)Several attempts of genocide of alien races (Claiming to be purifying the galaxy.) Yeah... Don't think anything they do can make up for above and much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellvaan Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Greetings everyone! We want to thank you for keeping this thread on-topic and constructive! Just a friendly reminder as we are seeing some references to real-life analogies and we know in this type of discussion it can be easy to do so; due to the volatile nature of discussion regarding real-life morality, religious, and political discussion, we do not allow them on the forums. Please keep all analogies and references to the above as it relates to the Star Wars Universe. Thank you for your understanding and we look forward to everyone's contribution to this discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonezmccoy Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hmm... some good points on the Republic not being good. All true. All accurate. And in no way do any of the points validate the Empire as good. This is not opposite-land. Because the Republic isn't the shining example of purity it aspires to be does not make the Empire any less evil, tyrannical, and genoicdal. Evil: Empire, Sith Good: Jedi Neither: Republic Why is the Empire evil by default? Because the Sith are evil, and they directly control the Empire. The emperor is a Sith. The Dark Council are Sith. They are evil. Why isn't the Republic good? The Jedi are good, but they don't control the Republic, they SERVE it. They do good on behalf of the Republic, which makes the Republic good-leaning. The protect the Republic from corrupt senators, scientists experimenting on living subjects, evil prison policies, etc., so they bring good to the Republic. Sure, there are light-side Sith. And dark-side Jedi, but really - drop in the bucket overall. Not enough to shift the balance of light/dark-side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celcionna Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I think that it really is all based on perspective. I mean, it would be hard trying to convince a Sith of the "error of his ways" in a Jedi's eyes. And vice versa I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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