Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details

[RMIGZ]

1) Mara/Sent is one of the best classes in the game.

2) I see it far more likely that we are nerfed, than buffed.

3) I don't want to see us nerfed. Or our complexity reduced.

 

Now, if the devs over there decide to smoke some crack and go, 'oh, we should listen to the bad players with slow reflexes, and inability to weave their abilities synergestically and buff Mara/Sent', I am going to laugh. A lot. Because things will get really, incredibly, ugly, and I think we'll witness the fastest nerf ever in SWTOR's admittedly very short lifespan.

 

Hey, I'm no masochist. If they buff us, I'll welcome it with open arms! But, I'd say the safe money is we get nerfed far before we get buffed.

 

And, despite the neverending whine on the forums in the Sent/Mara sub-forums, anyone in game should be able to attest to the large amounts of Sent/Mara alts being leveled up. The silent majority knows where it's at. ;P

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not fond of having to go cross-eyed because you can't play the class without keeping one eye fixed intently on your hotbars because the 'visual' and 'audio' cues are a joke (yes, Bioware, they exist, but lol if you think they are effective when you've got constant ability effects/sounds from the other 15 players in your warzone overlapping them). I'd rather see that addressed via the UI, than to reduce the complexity of the class though.

 

Now, I also think it's safe money that the Guardian/Juggernaut gets buffed, as they are poop. Not entirely useless (actually quite decent in Huttball), but oh so mediocore in any other situation, now that we're all beyond the stage where spamming Smash every few seconds made everyone fall over and die.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger will always be considered poop due to their rediculously bad mobility and lack of utility. It's possible their alpha strike ability will be able to be used effectively in rated warzones, but off the top of my head, there are any number of classes that do similar alpha strike damage while being able to contribute more utility to the game.

 

Operative/Scrapper healers are actually quite good, but Sorc/Sage healing is too, and when you're bored, you can become a very effective dps. Melee Ops/Scrappers are pure trash now.

 

The fact that you, Bioware, have admitted they are-by far-the least played classes, is hopefully leveraging them towards the front of your line to be looked at, even if you are being coy by saying it's perception, rather than actual mechanics, that resulted in the class demographics.

 

I'm fully aware that the class is complex and I play it well. I'm always #1, or at least top 3 depending on how much ball carrying I do, in the damage chart in PvP. That being said, it's still not as useful as a Sorcerer. My prediction is that when ranked WZ come Mara/Sent will be left to solo queues unless they PvP with a regular 8man group.

 

You're 100% right, I spend the entire PvP match watching my bars and waiting for procs. I may as well be playing a text only RPG, because I'm definitely not benefiting from the great visuals in this game.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like this game... but it's because I like it that I am so critical of these little things.

 

Give Mara/Sent their heavy armor and force pull back!

[TheRedNalroni]

Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details .....

 

This thread explains no such thing its title suggests...

 

 

We have to wait till the patch hits PTR

There is absolutley no reason to second guess, panic, emo out etc.

[Kabaal]

Some info is out on Darth Hater http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19979-guild-summit-interview-with-georg-zoeller doesn't sound hopeful for tank stats but i guess we'll see as even tiny tweaks could make all the difference.

 

1.2 should be hitting the test server today or tomorrow also.

 

A point of interest for you is class balance in Operations. Are you happy with that? Speaking specifically for the Bounty Hunter and the rebalancing that happened there, plus what people say is the over-nerf of Operatives. Where do you see this entire sphere?

 

It is two different topics, right? We can talk about nerfs, we can talk about class balance in Operations. Class balance in Operations… it’s a fact that we have to learn, right? You don’t go out and make the best Operations ever with a new team that you assembled on a new game, on a new engine, with new rules and everything, right? There is a learning period involved.

 

If you look at our progression, if you look at Karagga’s Palace, both in terms of stability and encounter design, and if you saw the new Operation, I think you can see that we are improving rapidly. There is a lot more interaction between the core combat, the balance team, and the Operations design team at this point. There were pain points; there’s not always the ability to read properly how aggro mechanics work. There are some pain points with area healing in Operations that we are addressing on the class side. If it is a specific boss’ aggro mechanics, then we have to address all of it on the Operations side. It is a bit hard sometimes finding out which side of the game we need to address.

 

Obviously, class changes have wide ranging implications across the entire game, but sometimes they are still necessary. In many cases, it’s the boss you want to look at and address. So with Bounty Hunter Mercenary healers or Scoundrel healers, we bolstered their area healing capability with some nice quality of life changes to make their healing output more predictable and overall comfortable to play. We did some improvement on the Sage and the Sorcerer as well, but we also identified some bugs/exploits that we fixed that caused the class to over-perform.

 

On the topic of nerfs, it’s obviously controversial if we decide we have to nerf something. I don’t expect people to throw us a parade. Ultimately, people are going to be very unhappy. Practical matter is you need a complete bird’s eye view of all eight classes — how they interplay with each other, how the entire health of the game is — to fully understand how things go. There is the small-minded approach of “so many people play Sorcerer, BioWare is never going to touch them.” No, that is not how it works. If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

 

 

 

I don’t know if it was the stun lock. I think it was the 9,000 crit with the buff stacking.

 

The stun lock was part of it but we actually identified the Operative at launch as problematic, and we had to watch it. We had to wait at least until we had data to make sure it was actually a problem. It’s very hard to balance a game on theory. We like to take a measured approach, watch what is actually happening in the game, and not meddle with you every week. Because everyone will have a feature of the week and, in many cases, the counter to that develops organically in the community in no time. There’s no reason for us to interfere, but if we see something that warrants interference, then we will have to act. 1.2 is one of those cases where we can go across the board, we can look at things, and we can rebalance.

 

Tracer Missile is a community favorite, and I can flat out state that if you pull the Tracer Missile stun on a skilled player, you are not going to live. It’s not working. Alright, if you know how to use interrupts, we see people stand there and they die. But that said, it is also dangerous to have people in a state where they can have a fairly decent DPS rotation with almost no effort. That isn’t good long term for them either. It is boring and it doesn’t add as much combat adrenaline as we want. So we did some changes there to rebalance that particular tree to move a bit out of the Tracer Missile, and require you to be more active in your combat style to achieve that kind of effect. You can call that a nerf. I call that housekeeping.

 

 

 

Where do you see tanks and their stats in regards to the the whole controversy behind tech?

 

Oh, the darthhater.com controversy on defense tech. What I said at the Guild Summit yesterday is basically, if you give up defense because you think it’s not worth it, you are a bit in trouble because now you’re vulnerable against tech and Force guys, who are your nemesis. They just blow past your defenses anyways and the guys with the weapons that can deal a lot of damage. The Sentinel and the Sniper archetypes are doing extreme amounts of damage if you let them. So you make yourself vulnerable.

 

Now, if you take class balance… I showed you the diagram yesterday of, obviously, there are more people playing Inquisitors than there is, for example, playing Snipers. There is an interesting function there where obviously you are statistically more likely to encounter Inquisitors in a Warzone. Then at some point, yes, it becomes natural that you say to yourself, “Wow, I don’t have defense against these guys anyway. I might as well stack damage because offense is the best defense.” That’s valid and we only have so much control over that because we’ll never force you to play a specific class. By our estimations, the Legacy system will equalize that a bit but the Smuggler will never be as popular as the lightning throwing dude. The Palpatine archetype is just that powerful and just to dispel the myth of “well, people are going to reroll and spec Sorcerer and maybe it’s flavor of the month,” or something like that. It’s actually not the case; these are long term trends that take a long time to change and what we see is for the majority of players is that the first character that they make is the character that they stick to 50. Even when we do focus groups, marketing research, when we put people in front of the game and they look at it and they’re like, “oh yeah, this is Palpatine or this is Luke,” or whatever they pick as their archetype. They stick with it, and it’s very hard to change their Star Wars fantasy and we have no business changing that.

 

However, it does mean that when you get onto certain servers and into Warzones; when you’re fighting more Inquisitors, for example… yes, it is probably the right choice to forego defense because it doesn’t do much against these dudes anyways. However, if you go into the topic of ranked Warzones, when people start to build teams and this is an area you want to move to, that’s a really great counter-move, right? If you know that the enemy tank is doing specifically that, well, you bring a Sniper and a Sentinel and you tear him to shreds. So there is something to it but it’s not as simple as it seems. The system is actually working as intended. There are outlines in the class balance that you cannot design a game around. I cannot go and predict what people will pick. We know roughly what they will but popularities change and all these kinds of things, and then your entire rules system breaks down if you actually started chasing that particular aspect of balance.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Kabaal

[hadoken]

I'm glad in that interview Georg mentioned the theorycrafting issue (data being wrong), as I expect some pretty big surprises once we get our (very limited) combat log.

[subrosian]

I'm glad in that interview Georg mentioned the theorycrafting issue (data being wrong), as I expect some pretty big surprises once we get our (very limited) combat log.

 

I find it amusing that people gave me such hell when I demonstrated that their math was wrong, and data was completely garbage ("it's better than nothing"... not if it's wrong it isn't) and now we have official confirmation that those sites are all completely off base.

 

Funny.

 

I'll take my apology letters and admissions of error from every person who has ever linked a spreadsheet.

[Onager]

I find it amusing that people gave me such hell when I demonstrated that their math was wrong, and data was completely garbage ("it's better than nothing"... not if it's wrong it isn't) and now we have official confirmation that those sites are all completely off base.

 

Funny.

 

I'll take my apology letters and admissions of error from every person who has ever linked a spreadsheet.

 

There's a problem with this, though. Those spreadsheet guys, when armed with the facts, do amazing things for the community. You can't be both a theorycrafter and a 'gut feeling' guy. Any theory as to the inner workings of the game mechanics when presented without the actual facts is worthless without the capacity to cross reference it with scientifically verifiable data.

[JeramieCrowe]

There's a problem with this, though. Those spreadsheet guys, when armed with the facts, do amazing things for the community. You can't be both a theorycrafter and a 'gut feeling' guy. Any theory as to the inner workings of the game mechanics when presented without the actual facts is worthless without the capacity to cross reference it with scientifically verifiable data.

 

There are savants among us whose "gut feeling" mathematics are due to an innate ability to calculate. "Scientifically verifiable data" is only necessary when presenting your findings to others, and that only applies to a few theorycrafters.

 

Many theorycrafters only craft for themselves, or a few select others.

Edited March 13, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[subrosian]

There's a problem with this, though. Those spreadsheet guys, when armed with the facts, do amazing things for the community. You can't be both a theorycrafter and a 'gut feeling' guy. Any theory as to the inner workings of the game mechanics when presented without the actual facts is worthless without the capacity to cross reference it with scientifically verifiable data.

 

I'm not just a "gut feeling" guy, I come out of the economics discipline, particularly interested in small group decision making, game theory and information gathering processes. The "spreadsheet guys" don't have the mathematical background to do the kind of analysis they want to do.

 

If you want good information, wait for the combat logs and analyze the logs against how the players were spec'd who created the logs. By studying aggregated and specific logs, with proper filtering, you can find the best way to spec for specific encounters, as well as the best spells to use, timings, etc...

 

I have tested hundreds of spreadsheets over the years in various MMOs, not a single one of them ever produced statistically valid data. Save yourself the trouble of bad information, anyone who says "my spreadsheet..." is wasting your time, and doesn't have the math background to do what they say they're doing.

Edited March 13, 2012 by subrosian

[subrosian]

There are savants among us whose "gut feeling" mathematics are due to an innate ability to calculate. "Scientifically verifiable data" is only necessary when presenting your findings to others, and that only applies to a few theorycrafters.

 

Many theorycrafters only craft for themselves, or a few select others.

 

All of my theorycraft has been private, and while I won't reveal names, over the years I've helped quite a few guilds in world races. I was also involved in what later became the GCN homebrew community thanks to my reverse-cryptography, but that's not something I'll discuss publicly these days.

 

I will say, the best theorycrafters don't publish their work, and you would be amazed at the tools some of us have that the public doesn't even know about. None of us are ever going public, there's no reason for us to - and I think most of us have gotten to a point where we're frustrated with how people use (and abuse) our data.

[FaelanCaimbeul]

After skimming through this thread, one thing jumps out at me, and DEVs, you REALLY need to take notice of this. Everyone complains about lack of balance. Almost everyone who complains is just whining because their character can't either A) do the cool thing the other class can, or B) just got his butt kicked by another player or NPC because it's smarter than him. 99% of the time, it's B. After being a DM in many, MANY systems over 25 years or so I can tell you one unalterable truth. The smarter player will ALWAYS win. He will always find a way to accomplish something with what he has available and he will always discover some way to do it that you, as the DEV or GM will never even consider. This is not, repeat NOT a game balance issue, it's a player balance issue. You can't fix player balance. Ever. We're all different. Some people are incapable of doing anything other than a frontal assault and getting creamed every time. Some of us, like myself, use the assassin like... well, and assassin. I do all my dailies with minimal casualties because of liberal use of stealth and moving smartly. I don't need to plow through a whole cave full of badies when I only need to sneak in, kill the boss in the back, and sneak out, or quicktravel out (honestly, I'd like to see some real XP and loot bonuses for doing exactly that, but I have no idea how you'd program it. Plus, someone will undoubtedly cry foul because I'm being rewarded for playing my character correctly).

 

Most of the whining I've seen boils down to this. Players who don't want to learn how to play their characters correctly blaming it on the game, not themselves. Spend a little time learning to play a character correctly. Learn how to work with other players that compliment your abilities and you'll quickly realize EVERY character is overpowered, and that's OK. It's called balance.

[justntrue]

After skimming through this thread, one thing jumps out at me, and DEVs, you REALLY need to take notice of this. Everyone complains about lack of balance. Almost everyone who complains is just whining because their character can't either A) do the cool thing the other class can, or B) just got his butt kicked by another player or NPC because it's smarter than him. 99% of the time, it's B. After being a DM in many, MANY systems over 25 years or so I can tell you one unalterable truth. The smarter player will ALWAYS win. He will always find a way to accomplish something with what he has available and he will always discover some way to do it that you, as the DEV or GM will never even consider. This is not, repeat NOT a game balance issue, it's a player balance issue. You can't fix player balance. Ever. We're all different. Some people are incapable of doing anything other than a frontal assault and getting creamed every time. Some of us, like myself, use the assassin like... well, and assassin. I do all my dailies with minimal casualties because of liberal use of stealth and moving smartly. I don't need to plow through a whole cave full of badies when I only need to sneak in, kill the boss in the back, and sneak out, or quicktravel out (honestly, I'd like to see some real XP and loot bonuses for doing exactly that, but I have no idea how you'd program it. Plus, someone will undoubtedly cry foul because I'm being rewarded for playing my character correctly).

 

Most of the whining I've seen boils down to this. Players who don't want to learn how to play their characters correctly blaming it on the game, not themselves. Spend a little time learning to play a character correctly. Learn how to work with other players that compliment your abilities and you'll quickly realize EVERY character is overpowered, and that's OK. It's called balance.

 

QFT.

 

SOOO many whiners who can't be arsed to bind their interupt = epic fail.

 

People using their heads in respect to using specific attacks/tactics vs specific profs = win, every time.

 

people whinging/whining about "my prof is da suxxorz" and "your prof needs nerfles" remind me of 6 year olds who can't think outside the brown paper bag, let alone the box.

[Coldin]

QFT.

 

SOOO many whiners who can't be arsed to bind their interupt = epic fail.

 

People using their heads in respect to using specific attacks/tactics vs specific profs = win, every time.

 

people whinging/whining about "my prof is da suxxorz" and "your prof needs nerfles" remind me of 6 year olds who can't think outside the brown paper bag, let alone the box.

 

Actually, what I take from this is that Devs shouldn't be catering to that player that can somehow make a bad class work. Too many times I've seen someone point at a broken mechanic, and say "I can do just fine with this, and defeat the deadliest dragons." Okay, so that one person can beat it. What about the rest of the 90% of players that are just struggling along. Should we just say "play better", even though there's other classes that require less skill for a bigger return? Personally, I don't think so. Different playstyles, sure. But not inherently more difficult.

[JeramieCrowe]

After skimming through this thread, one thing jumps out at me, and DEVs, you REALLY need to take notice of this. Everyone complains about lack of balance. Almost everyone who complains is just whining because their character can't either A) do the cool thing the other class can, or B) just got his butt kicked by another player or NPC because it's smarter than him. 99% of the time, it's B. After being a DM in many, MANY systems over 25 years or so I can tell you one unalterable truth. The smarter player will ALWAYS win. He will always find a way to accomplish something with what he has available and he will always discover some way to do it that you, as the DEV or GM will never even consider. This is not, repeat NOT a game balance issue, it's a player balance issue. You can't fix player balance. Ever. We're all different. Some people are incapable of doing anything other than a frontal assault and getting creamed every time. Some of us, like myself, use the assassin like... well, and assassin. I do all my dailies with minimal casualties because of liberal use of stealth and moving smartly. I don't need to plow through a whole cave full of badies when I only need to sneak in, kill the boss in the back, and sneak out, or quicktravel out (honestly, I'd like to see some real XP and loot bonuses for doing exactly that, but I have no idea how you'd program it. Plus, someone will undoubtedly cry foul because I'm being rewarded for playing my character correctly).

 

Most of the whining I've seen boils down to this. Players who don't want to learn how to play their characters correctly blaming it on the game, not themselves. Spend a little time learning to play a character correctly. Learn how to work with other players that compliment your abilities and you'll quickly realize EVERY character is overpowered, and that's OK. It's called balance.

 

Oh, the devs agree. In fact, Georg Zoeller just said:

 

If we ever reach the point where every class thinks they are completely balanced and everything is great, I'll take the red pill and unplug from the matrix.

 

LOL!

[ProfessorWalsh]

Actually, what I take from this is that Devs shouldn't be catering to that player that can somehow make a bad class work. Too many times I've seen someone point at a broken mechanic, and say "I can do just fine with this, and defeat the deadliest dragons." Okay, so that one person can beat it. What about the rest of the 90% of players that are just struggling along. Should we just say "play better", even though there's other classes that require less skill for a bigger return? Personally, I don't think so. Different playstyles, sure. But not inherently more difficult.

 

This... In spades...

 

I play Watchman spec Sentinel. In Combat spec I was struggling to hit 190k in a decent Warzone. Now, as Watchman spec, I have hit 380k, 390k, 450k, and 620k. I can make the class work.

 

I also have to be perfect to do it.

 

I have to use my relics as often as humanly possible (meaning I cannot let one ever be off CD). I have to use rebuke 100% of the time if I even think something is going to attack me. I have to saber ward at the first hint that Rebuke is not able to be brought up and I am under attack. I have to time any uses of Guarded by the Force so that I will lose less HP than I gain from using a health packs after using it (and I better keep a stockpile of health packs). I have to have a solid rotation and I have to keep merciless slash on the 7.5 second cooldown at all times. If Zen is ready I must pop it and instantly get as many burns as possible out. I have to save my force leap to counter knock back and snares, all targets I am facing must be snared, I have to maintain melee range at all times and attempt to LOS as much as possible. I have to juggle perfectly two different resource systems (centering and focus) and no other class in the game even comes close to the insane complexity.

 

On top of that I also have to build stats in a way that is different from the actual PVP gear we are given because the PVP gear is itemized for tanks for Jedi Sentinels for some inexplicable reason.

 

I have played a Trooper... They aren't that complicated... I have played a Sage... They aren't that complicated... I even tried a Smuggler and they too are much easier to play.

 

No class in this game is anywhere near as hard as a Jedi Sentinel. I can make the class sing, but I am not average. The average player can't make the class sing, but has no problem making any other class sing, and that is a problem.

 

BioWare needs to make the class easier to play. Plain and simple.

[JeramieCrowe]

This... In spades...

 

I play Watchman spec Sentinel. In Combat spec I was struggling to hit 190k in a decent Warzone. Now, as Watchman spec, I have hit 380k, 390k, 450k, and 620k. I can make the class work.

 

I also have to be perfect to do it.

 

I have to use my relics as often as humanly possible (meaning I cannot let one ever be off CD). I have to use rebuke 100% of the time if I even think something is going to attack me. I have to saber ward at the first hint that Rebuke is not able to be brought up and I am under attack. I have to time any uses of Guarded by the Force so that I will lose less HP than I gain from using a health packs after using it (and I better keep a stockpile of health packs). I have to have a solid rotation and I have to keep merciless slash on the 7.5 second cooldown at all times. If Zen is ready I must pop it and instantly get as many burns as possible out. I have to save my force leap to counter knock back and snares, all targets I am facing must be snared, I have to maintain melee range at all times and attempt to LOS as much as possible. I have to juggle perfectly two different resource systems (centering and focus) and no other class in the game even comes close to the insane complexity.

 

On top of that I also have to build stats in a way that is different from the actual PVP gear we are given because the PVP gear is itemized for tanks for Jedi Sentinels for some inexplicable reason.

 

I have played a Trooper... They aren't that complicated... I have played a Sage... They aren't that complicated... I even tried a Smuggler and they too are much easier to play.

 

No class in this game is anywhere near as hard as a Jedi Sentinel. I can make the class sing, but I am not average. The average player can't make the class sing, but has no problem making any other class sing, and that is a problem.

 

BioWare needs to make the class easier to play. Plain and simple.

 

Everything you listed here is exactly WHY I play a Sentinel. I do NOT want that change.

 

So far, every class that was remotely challenging in other games got dumbed down by the developer, and it has ALWAYS resulted in destroying that class.

 

BioWare would be repeating the same awful mistake if they dumb down Sentinel, too. I'm tired of playing these MMOs where I can win by rolling my face across the keyboard. It's boring, broken, and causes me to stop playing.

[Coldin]

Everything you listed here is exactly WHY I play a Sentinel. I do NOT want that change.

 

So far, every class that was remotely challenging in other games got dumbed down by the developer, and it has ALWAYS resulted in destroying that class.

 

BioWare would be repeating the same awful mistake if they dumb down Sentinel, too. I'm tired of playing these MMOs where I can win by rolling my face across the keyboard. It's boring, broken, and causes me to stop playing.

 

There's no reason that they'd have to "dumb down" Sentinel just to make it more accessible to the average player. The nice thing about class balance is you can have tiers of play. A viable rotation that produces a fair amount of DPS or Defense, and then a much more complicated method that produces better results. Not necessarily a huge gap, but big enough that the higher level of play is rewarded. Right now, the lower level of play isn't being suitably rewarded, and that will cause players to not have fun. You could have the devs say "Play Better", but when players aren't going to be happy with that answer when otherwise they like the dual wielding lightsaber class.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Everything you listed here is exactly WHY I play a Sentinel. I do NOT want that change.

 

So far, every class that was remotely challenging in other games got dumbed down by the developer, and it has ALWAYS resulted in destroying that class.

 

BioWare would be repeating the same awful mistake if they dumb down Sentinel, too. I'm tired of playing these MMOs where I can win by rolling my face across the keyboard. It's boring, broken, and causes me to stop playing.

 

JeramieCrowe, please don't take this comment the wrong way, but...

 

I don't care.

 

I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact that you like the class overly complicated and nearly impossible for a casual or average player to play and succeed at doesn't persuade me that such a thing is needed.

 

I don't mind a challenge.

 

I don't consider the current state "challenging" though.

 

I consider the current state "unfair" and remember I am one of the people who can use the class properly.

 

Why do I consider it unfair?

 

Because, with my skill level, if I apply myself the same way I must do on my Sentinel to any other class... I put my Sentinel performance to shame. Doing 700k damage and 300k healing as a Sorcerer? Yeah I can do that. From range. Easier.

 

Don't even get me started on what I can do as a Bounty Hunter where I have near Sentinel level DPS output but can also be virtually unbeatable one on one.

 

The fact is to match my Sentinel on virtually any other class I don't have to work very hard and that isn't fair.

 

If I am going to have to continue to work as hard as I am forced to then I want to see a benefit for doing it. I don't want to be "on par" with classes that don't work that hard, I want to be better than they are because I am working harder. I want reward for the work I am putting in.

[JeramieCrowe]

JeramieCrowe, please don't take this comment the wrong way, but...

 

I don't care.

 

I don't care that you don't care.

 

I'm not trying to convince you, anyway. I'm posting on these forums so that the developers of the game know that there are players who are tired of the dumbing down of complex classes.

 

I'm posting for them, not you.

 

There are plenty of classes in this game that are easy street. Why take away the only one or two that appeals to players like me? You talk about fairness, well removing options will always be the unfair move.

 

You have your options for easy classes. Now let me have my complex one.

Edited March 14, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[ProfessorWalsh]

I don't care that you don't care.

 

I'm not trying to convince you, anyway. I'm posting on these forums so that the developers of the game know that there are players who are tired of the dumbing down of complex classes.

 

I'm posting for them, not you.

 

There are plenty of classes in this game that are easy street. Why take away the only one or two that appeals to players like me? You talk about fairness, well removing options will always be the unfair move.

 

You have your options for easy classes. Now let me have my complex one.

 

This class isn't "complex" it is overly complex. That isn't a good thing. You can remove some of the complexity without making it an "easy" class. Nobody is asking for it to be a Bounty Hunter who can get by with 4 abilities.

 

We are asking for some quality of life adjustments that not only stop us from giving ourselves carpal tunnel syndrome but also allow this class to be more accessible. We should not be required to have high end equipment specifically to make things possible to compete.

 

For example do you play your Sentinel with a gaming mouse and/or gaming keyboard? Do you use button/key macros? If your answer is yes (and I know no Sentinels who are successful that don't) then you can increase the complexity of the class by not doing so, but you shouldn't feel like those things are needed.

 

Currently I do feel like my gaming mouse/keyboard are required for me to play my Sentinel.

[hadoken]

For example do you play your Sentinel with a gaming mouse and/or gaming keyboard? Do you use button/key macros? If your answer is yes (and I know no Sentinels who are successful that don't) then you can increase the complexity of the class by not doing so, but you shouldn't feel like those things are needed.

 

Currently I do feel like my gaming mouse/keyboard are required for me to play my Sentinel.

 

Plenty do not, just because you need these crutches does not mean the class is broken. It is more difficult than the other classes, sure. Not nearly as much as you are implying (granted, maybe it is for you, but that's a 'you' issue).

[LordbishopX]

Plenty do not, just because you need these crutches does not mean the class is broken. It is more difficult than the other classes, sure. Not nearly as much as you are implying (granted, maybe it is for you, but that's a 'you' issue).

 

QFT play a one button clicker tracer missle comes to mind. Nothing really hard at all about sent/mara build rage use rage it's that simple...

[JeramieCrowe]

This class isn't "complex" it is overly complex. That isn't a good thing. You can remove some of the complexity without making it an "easy" class. Nobody is asking for it to be a Bounty Hunter who can get by with 4 abilities.

 

We are asking for some quality of life adjustments that not only stop us from giving ourselves carpal tunnel syndrome but also allow this class to be more accessible. We should not be required to have high end equipment specifically to make things possible to compete.

 

For example do you play your Sentinel with a gaming mouse and/or gaming keyboard? Do you use button/key macros? If your answer is yes (and I know no Sentinels who are successful that don't) then you can increase the complexity of the class by not doing so, but you shouldn't feel like those things are needed.

 

Currently I do feel like my gaming mouse/keyboard are required for me to play my Sentinel.

 

I have a $10 Wal-mart GE keyboard and a $15 Engage 5-button mouse. Button/key macros? There are no macros ingame right now...

 

Don't get me wrong: I'd LOVE a Razer Naga, but there's no way on this green earth I'm going to get an $80 mouse past the wife...

 

But you're talking to someone who used to land the top 10 consistently in Quake 2, playing on dialup with a Pentium II. And I'm not alone out here.

 

Not much more to say. There's a post right after your last one that sums up fairly well how I feel about this.

[Superastro]

@ProfessorWalsh -

 

The problem is that the Marauders/Sentinels in this forum dont actually know how hard the class can be if you want to put the BEST POSSIBLE dmg "rotation".

 

Ive been asking "good" marauders on my server Rep and Emp side, about their rotations, what they do to put perfect dmg.

 

I was really amazed by the fact the 100% of all the mara/sent I ask those questions did not know how to play it perfectly. they perform alright, but not perfect, and is way too much effort.

 

Most of the good Maras/Sent here just pool their rage and dump mindlessly with what skill is light. In pvp some of then dont even use rebuke/retaliation, ravage/master strike, some think they have to wait only for the first two hits, some dont check if they actually have buff, debuff fully stack to activate berserk...

 

 

Perfect dps priority list for MARAUDERS and SENTINELS for pve:

 

1- Berserk/Zen: Use always when available, if you about to use Adrenal and Relics, line them up here

 

2- Annihilate/Merciless Slash: if cd-reduction buff is about to expire

 

3- Vicious Throw/Dispatch: When target is below 20% hp

 

4- Rupture/Cauterize

 

5- Annihilate/Merciless Slash

 

6- Deadly Saber/Overload Saber: lined up with Force Charge or Assault

 

7- Battering Assault/Zealous Strike: If resource < 7

 

9- Ravage/Master Strike: When 2,4 + 5 remaining cd is above 5 seconds

 

10- Assault/Strike: When nothing else is ready for use or your resource would fall below 5

 

11- Assalut/Strike together with Retaliation/Rebuke procs: When everything is on CD and youre falling below 5 resource and you know you wont need the Rage spent for the next 2/3 globals. . YOU ONLY LOSE 1 RAGE BY USING THIS!

 

iF YOU want to PVP try to add your heal and slow debuff in this rotation.

 

 

GOOD LUCK

 

http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.219936100

[ProfessorWalsh]

I have a $10 Wal-mart GE keyboard and a $15 Engage 5-button mouse. Button/key macros? There are no macros ingame right now...

 

Don't get me wrong: I'd LOVE a Razer Naga, but there's no way on this green earth I'm going to get an $80 mouse past the wife...

 

But you're talking to someone who used to land the top 10 consistently in Quake 2, playing on dialup with a Pentium II. And I'm not alone out here.

 

Not much more to say. There's a post right after your last one that sums up fairly well how I feel about this.

 

If you have a gaming keyboard/mouse you can indeed set macros to your keys. I played Quake 2 back when we were on dialup too, as a high ranking Sentinel I literally caused injury to myself before I bought that mouse.

 

As in I literally aggravated my carpal tunnel and had to walk around with a brace on for the last 6 days of early access from using the overly complex rotation. Am I asking for a 4-8 button rotation like a Bounty Hunter? No.

 

But I am asking for something to alleviate the massive storm of buttons I have to hit at the moment.

[JeramieCrowe]

The problem is that the Marauders/Sentinels in this forum dont actually know how hard the class can be if you want to put the BEST POSSIBLE dmg "rotation".

 

Edited March 14, 2012 by JeramieCrowe