Update 1.2 Class Balances and the Nitty Gritty Details

[Coldin]

Your sense of entitlement is incredible, I'd love some details on classes as well but your wording makes you sound like a child. MMO gamers...lol. You act like you're walking into a lambourghini dealership when you pull out your $50 + $15/month. It really is detestable.

 

Personally, I think of myself as a customer with an investment (however small) into a product. A product I hope to enjoy months and years into the future. I stated my concerns in a clear manner, and am not simply crying that Bioware isn't communicating. I actually appreciate that Georg has come into my thread to post information. I can express my desire that I would like some more information, but obviously he's unable or unwilling to give further info until 1.2 hits the PTS.

 

Honestly, I think calling me a child is more "childish" than myself expressing some impatience and dissatisfaction. We received a great deal of information about 1.2 during the guild summit, but it simply wasn't the information I was looking for. I also wish people would stop using "sense of entitlement" as if it's a slander. There is always some sense of entitlement when one is paying for a product or service. It does not matter if it's a hundred thousand dollars, or just 15 dollars a month.

[Coldin]

I would LOVE to see a dev's response to the painfully obvious issues with this class. I shelved my Marauder for a Sorcerer because of how much more useful a Sorcerer is in PvP and PvE. Next on the list is Bounty Hunter. It's sad that, to me, the most interesting class is such garbage compared to the expectation I had from reading the website prior to character creation.

 

Damage: Marauder = Sorcerer

Mobility: Marauder < Sorcerer

Healing: Marauder < Sorcerer

CC: Marauder < Sorcerer

Survival: Marauder < Sorcerer

Knockback/AoE: Marauder < Sorcerer

 

I can't imagine that Marauder's are working as intended.

 

Sorcerers, and Inquisitors in general, seem to have the most tools to bring to a group. I know some Maruaders/Sentinels that dish out some incredible damage, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

 

If we do see some changes to the class, it probably will be lessen the skill level while keeping the damage the same. Also probably to give Knights/Warriors one utility skill like a stun or knockback.

 

I actually had a Sentinel at one point, but due to the difficulty and lack of utility in the class, I switched over to a Guardian. I was a lot happier with the change.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Coldin

[rkspeck]

I don't really agree with that. Every class should have a fairly clear counter. Yes a good player should reliably beat a bad player, but it should be a lot harder to do so when against your 'counter class'.

 

Again, There will never be that balance in any MMO because so many factors play into what is OP and not based on the abilities and player skill.

 

Again, after 1.2 if you nerf Marauders, there will be another TOP 1 v 1 class. You will never get around it unless you make all the classes the same.

 

A good 1 v 1 Assassin can wreck a marauder if played right and equally geared. So does that mean they should be nerfed? no.

 

WZs are not geared around 1 v 1s. Ilum and world PvP sure, there will be a lot more 1 v 1 action. All plays a part on skill, gear and who gets the jump.

 

By your logic I need Sorcs and Sages to be nerfed. They are 1 of the best Group PvP classes and have so much more utility in WZs. This is unfair to the Marauder class...blah blah blah

Edited March 12, 2012 by rkspeck

[hadoken]

A good 1 v 1 Assassin can wreck a marauder if played right and equally geared. So does that mean they should be nerfed? no.

 

Actually they should but that's a different argument. Tank spec is far too strong in pvp for that class, compared to the others that have that role.

 

All this stuff is pointless though, we'll see what happens in 1.2 whenever they decide to throw more bones our way.

Edited March 12, 2012 by hadoken

[rkspeck]

Actually they should but that's a different argument. Tank spec is far too strong in pvp for that class, compared to the others that have that role.

 

All this stuff is pointless though, we'll see what happens in 1.2 whenever they decide to throw more bones our way.

 

I for one think the marauder class is one of the better balanced classes due to the complexity of which it takes to play their rotation/priority system. (Meaning not face role with Rage spec or mash 3 buttons like other classes).

 

You are right and this is all pointless and we can only see what will take place in 1.2.

[Dangzing]

just give me /stick and /face and let me put them on my bar and let's call it a wrap shall we?

[Felioats]

Relax. In Georg time, "Soon™" means "soon."

 

I seem to even recall a "very soon" that ended up happening the next day.

[Coldin]

Relax. In Georg time, "Soon™" means "soon."

 

I seem to even recall a "very soon" that ended up happening the next day.

 

Heh. I come from DDO, where if you were around, "Soon" became a bit of shunned word. We were in the dark for information for 6 months or more, with no updates or any news on the horizon. Of course, it actually ended up being because of the lawsuits with Atari and then the conversion over to the F2P model that everything was so dark. Still, I think many DDO players don't really like hearing the word "Soon" anymore.

 

I'm crossing my fingers that we'll learn more this week.

[JeramieCrowe]

Heh. I come from DDO, where if you were around, "Soon" became a bit of shunned word. We were in the dark for information for 6 months or more, with no updates or any news on the horizon. Of course, it actually ended up being because of the lawsuits with Atari and then the conversion over to the F2P model that everything was so dark. Still, I think many DDO players don't really like hearing the word "Soon" anymore.

 

I'm crossing my fingers that we'll learn more this week.

 

You're not in DDO anymore, Mephit.

[Coldin]

You're not in DDO anymore, Mephit.

 

Maybe not, but it's still amusing to see how similar MMOs can be, from the game, to the devs, to the community.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Coldin

[Felioats]

Maybe not, but it's still amusing to see how similar MMOs can be, from the game, to the devs, to the community.

 

Well, it's sort of a game of musical chairs. There aren't all that many developers, relatively speaking. They just go from company to company.

 

Unless they were involved with Flagship Studios.

 

(J/K. But seriously.)

[Hologramx]

I don't think there are any OP class in the game.

But there are a few classes that are too weak at their specifications.

You need to bring them in line with the top class (such as Sage, which is very well balanced ) so people already playing the top class want to challenge the others. Otherwise, if they got enough with that, they simply don't play the game anymore. Who want to play a weaker and useless healer if you already have a perfect one?

As a matter of fact, so far I am seeing most sages sticking to their sages while scoundrels and commandos re-rolling sages. This is a bad trend in the view of game balance.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Hologramx

[JeramieCrowe]

I don't think there are any OP class in the game.

But there are a few classes that are too weak at their specifications.

You need to bring them in line with the top class (such as Sage, which is very well balanced ) so people already playing the top class want to challenge the others. Otherwise, if they got enough with that, they simply don't play the game anymore. Who want to play a weaker and useless healer if you already have a perfect one?

As a matter of fact, so far I am seeing most sages sticking to their sages while scoundrels and commandos re-rolling sages. This is a bad trend in the view of game balance.

 

And here I've been reading that Sentinel is the top class.

 

People, the class design caters to play style, not viability. If you like micro-managing, tedious, single-target DPS, be a Sentinel/Marauder. If you like cast-timers, somewhat slower big number AoE DPS, be a Sage/Sorcerer. It really is simple.

 

Because at the end of the day, if you're playing the class that matches your play style, the numbers come out fairly even. (Fairly, because some very minor adjustments are needed, which is expected, and still more balanced than any other MMO I've played in the last decade.)

[Regault]

Actually they should but that's a different argument. Tank spec is far too strong in pvp for that class, compared to the others that have that role.

 

All this stuff is pointless though, we'll see what happens in 1.2 whenever they decide to throw more bones our way.

 

Guardian/Juggernaut tanks are useless in PvP(outside huttball). Vanguard/Powertech are okay(Due to class abilities, not the skill tree). Shadow/Assassin are good.

 

It's not that their tank spec is far too strong in PvP, it's that they're the only tank spec that works in PvP, since they're the only tank class with force/tech resistance, and their mobility with Force Speed is insane. I've had an Assassin right in front of me when the door blows in Voidstar, Force Speed out of Leap range before it came off cooldown, and by the time I'd caught up to them they'd already armed the next door.

[Brokor]

The problem is not the balance whine, this is bound to happen.

the problem is when the devs themselves unanimously agree that one crew skill is ridicously overpowered and they still dont do anything to fix it.

 

in the guild summit everyone agreed that biochem is the only useful profession.

yet nothing was done to give something to players who did not choose it.

 

so we will have to w8 1 month just to be competitive in pvp if we are not biochem... good choise devs. it is always good to come out and admit an imbalance yet do nothing at all to change it.

 

it would literally take 10 minutes for the devs to make the reusable stims/adrenals/medpacks used by everyone.

(not the rakata ones, the ones that got 380 biochem as a condition to use, which is unique in biochem since everything else i can make as a synthweaver is usable by everyone apart from the rakatas)

 

yet they decide to say "we know biochem is the only useful crew skill, we are gonna fix it SOON" and leave us in an imbalanced game for 1-2months till 1.2 comes.

 

 

also they do nothing about all those dead servers that got 4 lvl 50's in prime time.

[silky_soft_]

Uh, well, no. How do I explain this?

 

I am saying exactly what I am saying in my post. Some skills in the game had structural changes. I am not mentioning any specific class. I'm giving a generic example of something that could be considered a structural change.

 

How you can turn this into something that references Marauders, Sentinels, focus and alpha strikes or DOTs is completely beyond me.

 

Nice political answer, they chose you well for your job. All you need to do is say that we are not getting nerfed. By nerfing I mean taking away our high end alpha strike or crit chance on any spec or making the classes easy to play. But you can't can you? Due to the fact that we are going to become the forgotten redhead step child of swtor. As what happens with most pure melee.

 

Where does this nerf talk come from do you ask yourself? Is this guy smoking crack? Did he forget to take his meds? Or did he just get up on the wrong side of the bed? It came from the majority classes that feel hard done by. Ie: 30m range, slowing, mid-high dmg, indefinite, insta cast dots/dmg, while being able to heal and cc that dmg can't break or the hey look at me I can stealth, tank better then you with light armor and my own heals while getting hit by 80% of your team, also protecting somone else, did I mention I can sap you while not coming out of stealth, stun you, knock you down, drop some killer dps. Maybe even I have heavy armor, have an invul cast skill while healing myself or others while they grind into whoever is hitting me, then knocking back or cc that dmg can't break. Not mentioning any specific classes there. Just giving a generic example of somthing that could be considered a class spec in swtor. These classes get facerolled with thier mates next to them by a great Oh, lets say high dPS class and complain that the whole class is "hax imba! nerf nerf!". While they prance around with a couple of tactless non target facing skills.

 

A good sent/mara would fit in this list (ref, article 1). A trash one, which is most of them would not. They would be < at everything. Great sent/mara can even take on 2 good sorc or 3+ ability challanged sorcs. Adept sent/mara with burn/bleed or slam spec will have no troubles in taking down pretty much anything that walks in his path.

 

Article 1:

Damage: Marauder = Sorcerer

Mobility: Marauder < Sorcerer

Healing: Marauder < Sorcerer

CC: Marauder < Sorcerer

Survival: Marauder < Sorcerer

Knockback/AoE: Marauder < Sorcerer

 

We like the difficulty of our class to play. We like the current skill trees, maybe change combat to a cc/interupt spec and remove offhand mastery.

 

If you would like to affect our class in a positive way. Please look into:

• Off hand not getting any of our strength/power bonus to its base dps (not bonus dmg)
  
• Our choice in armor set as we only have 1 set for pvp or pve
  
• How stupid we look being a scubadiving space samurai in cow skin
  
• The imbalace from sent to mara, in what is ment to the be a mirror
  
• Increase our kill move from 20% or increase its range from 10m
  

 

But if you think we are grossly overpower because a few of us can actully play the class beyond what you thought its potentiel was. Then sure go ahead and confirm that we will infact be receiving a class nerf to our already underdog status.

 

For those that don't know what adept is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adept, so I'm saying the best in class.

Edited March 13, 2012 by silky_soft_

[JeramieCrowe]

Nice political answer, they chose you well for your job. All you need to do is say that we are not getting nerfed.

 

There is NO ONE who can say whether they are or not yet! They DON'T KNOW YET!!! OMG!! Why is it soo freaking hard to wrap your skull around that?! THINGS WILL PROBABLY CHANGE FROM THEIR CURRENT PLANS!!!

 

Maybe caps will fit inside that skull????? He even made it clear that once it hits PTS, it's still not final! Once it hits PTS, test it!

 

Amazing....

Edited March 13, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[ProfessorWalsh]

There is NO ONE who can say whether they are or not yet! They DON'T KNOW YET!!! OMG!! Why is it soo freaking hard to wrap your skull around that?! THINGS WILL PROBABLY CHANGE FROM THEIR CURRENT PLANS!!!

 

Maybe caps will fit inside that skull????? He even made it clear that once it hits PTS, it's still not final! Once it hits PTS, test it!

 

Amazing....

 

Unfortunately his fears are not unfounded. No class has been beaten down more than the Sentinel and Marauder. In Beta we were one of the last completed, last polished, and we were nerfed in beta so hard that it literally makes what Operatives and Scoundrels got look like a love tap.

[JeramieCrowe]

Unfortunately his fears are not unfounded. No class has been beaten down more than the Sentinel and Marauder. In Beta we were one of the last completed, last polished, and we were nerfed in beta so hard that it literally makes what Operatives and Scoundrels got look like a love tap.

 

I am currently a level 40 Sentinel, and my DPS is amazing. I'm loving it. I love that I have to be smart about this class to play it right.

 

What's the problem? I certainly hope we're not advocating that it be dumbed down?

Edited March 13, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Benfea]

Uh, well, no. How do I explain this?

 

I am saying exactly what I am saying in my post. Some skills in the game had structural changes. I am not mentioning any specific class. I'm giving a generic example of something that could be considered a structural change.

 

How you can turn this into something that references Marauders, Sentinels, focus and alpha strikes or DOTs is completely beyond me.

 

What? You're going to replace all the Sentinel companions with potted daffodils? HOW DARE YOU?

 

[Benfea]

I am currently a level 40 Sentinel, and my DPS is amazing. I'm loving it. I love that I have to be smart about this class to play it right.

 

What's the problem? I certainly hope we're not advocating that it be dumbed down?

 

Look, we all know that the day is coming when the theorycrafters attack this game with spreadsheets and suck all the fun out of it. By then, we will all be wandering around with the same equipment load-outs, the same skill point distributions, and using the same skill rotations in combat.

 

Personally, I want to delay that moment as much as possible, so I'm sticking to classes that let me get away with a certain amount of button-mashing.

[revial]

I would LOVE to see a dev's response to the painfully obvious issues with this class. I shelved my Marauder for a Sorcerer because of how much more useful a Sorcerer is in PvP and PvE. Next on the list is Bounty Hunter. It's sad that, to me, the most interesting class is such garbage compared to the expectation I had from reading the website prior to character creation.

 

Damage: Marauder = Sorcerer

Mobility: Marauder < Sorcerer

Healing: Marauder < Sorcerer

CC: Marauder < Sorcerer

Survival: Marauder < Sorcerer

Knockback/AoE: Marauder < Sorcerer

 

I can't imagine that Marauder's are working as intended.

 

1) Mara/Sent is one of the best classes in the game.

2) I see it far more likely that we are nerfed, than buffed.

3) I don't want to see us nerfed. Or our complexity reduced.

 

Now, if the devs over there decide to smoke some crack and go, 'oh, we should listen to the bad players with slow reflexes, and inability to weave their abilities synergestically and buff Mara/Sent', I am going to laugh. A lot. Because things will get really, incredibly, ugly, and I think we'll witness the fastest nerf ever in SWTOR's admittedly very short lifespan.

 

Hey, I'm no masochist. If they buff us, I'll welcome it with open arms! But, I'd say the safe money is we get nerfed far before we get buffed.

 

And, despite the neverending whine on the forums in the Sent/Mara sub-forums, anyone in game should be able to attest to the large amounts of Sent/Mara alts being leveled up. The silent majority knows where it's at. ;P

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not fond of having to go cross-eyed because you can't play the class without keeping one eye fixed intently on your hotbars because the 'visual' and 'audio' cues are a joke (yes, Bioware, they exist, but lol if you think they are effective when you've got constant ability effects/sounds from the other 15 players in your warzone overlapping them). I'd rather see that addressed via the UI, than to reduce the complexity of the class though.

 

Now, I also think it's safe money that the Guardian/Juggernaut gets buffed, as they are poop. Not entirely useless (actually quite decent in Huttball), but oh so mediocore in any other situation, now that we're all beyond the stage where spamming Smash every few seconds made everyone fall over and die.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger will always be considered poop due to their rediculously bad mobility and lack of utility. It's possible their alpha strike ability will be able to be used effectively in rated warzones, but off the top of my head, there are any number of classes that do similar alpha strike damage while being able to contribute more utility to the game.

 

Operative/Scrapper healers are actually quite good, but Sorc/Sage healing is too, and when you're bored, you can become a very effective dps. Melee Ops/Scrappers are pure trash now.

 

The fact that you, Bioware, have admitted they are-by far-the least played classes, is hopefully leveraging them towards the front of your line to be looked at, even if you are being coy by saying it's perception, rather than actual mechanics, that resulted in the class demographics.

[DralenBrand]

Nobody outside the building has seen the patch notes for 1.2 yet. So whoever is reporting anything regarding the class changes in 1.2 is likely doing so based on second or third hand commentary from someone who might - or might not - have seen the patch notes.

 

I got asked some questions regarding individual classes by people at the Guild Summit and have answered all of them. When / if these people decide to divulge those answers is up to them.

 

In regards to comments about 'relative silence about class X': We generally do not comment on balance related plans or findings on the Forums, for any class, until we have made a firm decision to change something and the patch that does so is on the Public Test Server. Doing anything else would limit options and create unreasonable expectations.

 

We do, at rare occasions, hint at upcoming changes (e.g. in a Q&A), but these cases are exceptions.

 

Yes, you may say 'Georg, then give us the real information'. That's fair, we totally appreciate that you guys are impatient. However, giving you that information requires it to be final, and it is not. It will be final enough for initial public consumption when patch 1.2 is on PTS.

 

It's tempting to give snippets and hints about these changes here, now, to calm people down - but all that will accomplish is everyone who isn't getting their information will cry foul. It's happening already based on the article you are referencing ("Why are you nerfing X but not Y"), which is completely void of any details. On the internet, saying X means that everyone else hears 'Not Y'.

 

So:

 

Yes, I want you to have that information, but I want everyone to get it at the same time, when it is ready, and I want you to get the full picture. Thus, you will all get it with the full patch notes on PTS. Once that information is there, you can test the changes on the server and voice your feedback as usual and yes, some people will be happy, some won't.

 

If we ever reach the point where every class thinks they are completely balanced and everything is great, I'll take the red pill and unplug from the matrix.

 

 

 

Georg, without being too much of a kiss-arse (I hope), you rock. I just wanted you to know how much this user appreciates the info that you do give, and also your explanations for why some information won't come until later. It makes waiting for the info that I really want easier to tolerate (e.g., details on changes - hopefully improvements - to the combat-specced sentinel and combat's quality of life).

 

Many of us are going nuts not knowing what is going to happen to our toons, especially the toons we have already ground to 50. I realize, from your perspective, we are probably like misbehaviing kids constantly shouting "Are we there yet?" in the car, but I appreciate you humoring us and providing as much detail as you can. Thanks.

 

[Wrathoran]

Guardian and Jugg : both shelved at the moment. They doing OK but not amazingly good. Could use some help.

 

Sorcerer : my sorc is OP, need a nerf

 

Assassin : Darkness is Op, Deception is ok and so is madness, could use some love.

 

Merc : Yeah, the arsenal tree need to go. I got both merc and commando and it suck to play that. Its strong yeah but so boring. Its the class with the fewest button to dps that i played.

 

Smuggler : i shelved it too. Was fun but i had to work twice as hard as everyone to get the same result at 50 (from 36 to 49 though i was a killing machine). The sets look bad... what i mean by that is 1.2 set armor was the nails in the coffin. But wielding a shotgun and a single revolver is kick ***. Loved the story.

 

PT: i was trying to decide between playing my assassin or PT. The assassin won. PT is good looking but lack mobility until 30 and lack defensive cooldown. Like the assassin has more burst, can stealth cap objectives, more defensive cooldown like root removal with sprint and a second Escape ability etc. I felt when i was playing my PT i could do good dmg but it was only in AOE and when i was getting focused, there is hardly any button i could press to make things better, my shield thats all (point of view of a lvl30). When i fight was not in my favor i couldnt just stealth away, recover really quick and come back.. no i had to die and come back. So i think PT could enjoy one more defensive cooldown.

 

Sniper : great deal of fun, i would only give it one more ability though. A camouflage just like marauder/sent. A 4 sec stealth that break root to get away. Thats the only thing lacking on that class i believe.

 

So yeah, i dont have a stand point really valid other then on a jugg and smugg since its both my 50 but the rest is all in the 30

Edited March 13, 2012 by Wrathoran

[DralenBrand]

1) Mara/Sent is one of the best classes in the game.

2) I see it far more likely that we are nerfed, than buffed.

3) I don't want to see us nerfed. Or our complexity reduced.

 

Now, if the devs over there decide to smoke some crack and go, 'oh, we should listen to the bad players with slow reflexes, and inability to weave their abilities synergestically and buff Mara/Sent', I am going to laugh. A lot. Because things will get really, incredibly, ugly, and I think we'll witness the fastest nerf ever in SWTOR's admittedly very short lifespan.

 

Hey, I'm no masochist. If they buff us, I'll welcome it with open arms! But, I'd say the safe money is we get nerfed far before we get buffed.

 

And, despite the neverending whine on the forums in the Sent/Mara sub-forums, anyone in game should be able to attest to the large amounts of Sent/Mara alts being leveled up. The silent majority knows where it's at. ;P

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not fond of having to go cross-eyed because you can't play the class without keeping one eye fixed intently on your hotbars because the 'visual' and 'audio' cues are a joke (yes, Bioware, they exist, but lol if you think they are effective when you've got constant ability effects/sounds from the other 15 players in your warzone overlapping them). I'd rather see that addressed via the UI, than to reduce the complexity of the class though.

 

Now, I also think it's safe money that the Guardian/Juggernaut gets buffed, as they are poop. Not entirely useless (actually quite decent in Huttball), but oh so mediocore in any other situation, now that we're all beyond the stage where spamming Smash every few seconds made everyone fall over and die.

 

Sniper/Gunslinger will always be considered poop due to their rediculously bad mobility and lack of utility. It's possible their alpha strike ability will be able to be used effectively in rated warzones, but off the top of my head, there are any number of classes that do similar alpha strike damage while being able to contribute more utility to the game.

 

Operative/Scrapper healers are actually quite good, but Sorc/Sage healing is too, and when you're bored, you can become a very effective dps. Melee Ops/Scrappers are pure trash now.

 

The fact that you, Bioware, have admitted they are-by far-the least played classes, is hopefully leveraging them towards the front of your line to be looked at, even if you are being coy by saying it's perception, rather than actual mechanics, that resulted in the class demographics.

 

 

 

I don't think we need a "buff" per se, and we definitely don't need a nerf. I would like my combat-sent to me more "bursty" on the front end of the battle, even if post-burst I do less dmg output to balance it. Also, I would like a second gap closer for anti-kiting and to balance speed bursts. Also, a lower CD on resolute would be nice (or a 2nd de-mezz option with a separate CD).

 

I hate having to keep Force Leap in reserve in PvP - but if I burn it on the initial attack, when someone uses force speed (or whatever it is called) to escape, or when they mez me and run, I have no hopeful means of closing the gap before they heal up. As a combat sent, I have no innate healing ability ala watchman, so this is problematic at times. Yes, I can just reserve Force Leap, but that means I am sacrificing my best/favorite opener to be a gap closer. Even if that is balanced somehow, it sure is tedious.

 

Yes we have slow and root abilities, but I just don't find themto be equally effective to the opposition's escape and kiting abilities.

 

All this said, I am not talking major buffs or anything - just some very minor tweaking. On the whole, I do pretty well in PvP. I just want some of the more annoying PvP scenarios to be mitigated a bit.