Sozin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 As a juggernaut I would give up intercede while holding the huttball if they take away the friendly rescue/pull. Now charge on the other hand requires the enemy be stupid enough to allow me that positioning and seems legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Every Role has a responsiblity. DPS must help to control certain areas. Controlling the middle is extremely important beause no matter who scores first, or spikes, the ball will respawn in the middle every time. You need to kill, CC will only get you so far mid. Tanks need to protect healers and ball carrier, or sorcs in position to grab ball. Healers need to heal the carrier. Utility needs to do things like pull etc, but while they are concentrating on, you know, objectives, they are vulnurable. I am a Sentinel, I typically don't act as ball carrier but I help to control mid, and the upper areas since I can leap up to sorcs etc. Im not a very good ball carrier even though my class can make one, for short bursts. Huttball is about teamwork, and really it's people who only know how to DPS that complain. Typically, competent healers are smart enough to realize what it is, so do tanks, but all DPS requires is tunnel vision and a rotation. To be OK. DPS is a dime a dozen, and so bad/mediocre players will come here and complain, rather than improve. I really don't want to be condescending, but typically people bad at Huttball, or complain about it, just flat out aren't good at PVP in SWTOR. I know it may hurt your pride, but it's true. Huttball is a great great map, and it is all about a Team. 8 of any class that works as a team will crush 8 disoritented Inquisitors/Consulars no matter how much you complain about them. Huttball is all about teamplay, no ifs ands or butts. If it wasn't pull, people would just pass. You dont get that this is nothing but 'good and bad' story, do you? Edited March 7, 2012 by Maxkardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scav Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) So, ya got beat by players that know how maximize their tools in a team game? Come to forums and cry..... Hmmm, we have a winner here, folks. Considering all to the push away CCs, one friendly pull is nothing. Edited March 7, 2012 by Scav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DariuszPol Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 You know you can "chain pull" enemy carrier from your own base to the center of the map if you want and have enough sorcs ? Just idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinktress Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I've gotten bumped and pulled into the fire while using Rescue [pull friendly] and it killed both me and the ball carrier. No complaints, it was darn impressive Apologies to the ball carriers I *tried* to rescue who ended up dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) So, ya got beat by players that know how maximize their tools in a team game? Come to forums and cry..... Hmmm, we have a winner here, folks. Considering all to the push away CCs, one friendly pull is nothing. Nothing I've said has been crying, thanks for your input though! Also, if you look at the two toolsets given to say, Pyrotechs and Sorcs. If we were to look at a pyrotech chain trying to pull a ball carrier across the map (while it would have to be an enemy carrier) this would be fundamentally impossible as there is a RESOLVE component to Grapple. This is where the imbalance occurs as Rescue chains are not dependant on anything but cooldown. There is nothing preventing long chains of Rescues to be used in quick succession to move the ball insanely fast across the map. I'm not disagreeing that these players used the tools given to them in a very efficient way, but it completely negates the need for passing, and the risks that are inherently involved in passing (such as intercepted passes, potentially missing your mark etc). Edited March 7, 2012 by buubz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 will you then also agree that trooper's should not be allowed to pull enemy ball carriers, eh? The fundamental problem with the comparison between grapple and rescue, is the fact that one is RESOLVE dependant, as I've stated many times before. This is what creates the imbalance between the two abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiekaboom Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 BOTH TEAMS HAVE THIS ABILITY (assuming they have one class) The winner in all WZs should always go to the team that has more sages / sorcs. This already happens in the other two WZs, why not in huttball? If you are not playing a sorc / sage in PVP why are you even there? Re-roll, help out your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 To balance sorc friendly pull, when someone is pulled they turn into a sniper for the rest of the warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girltank Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Even that would be productive at this point, but the fact of the matter is leaps/pulls break that map fundamentally. They remove the need to pass, and just make it a 'give ball to tank, leap, pull, pull score!'. I doubt this was intended but Bioware has shown that they have 0 clue on what constitutes balanced gameplay at this point, so I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed. except there is a defending team that has pulls pushes, stuns/pins to stop the tank from getting where he needs to go and the enemy Sage/sorc from getting into position to pull. Defending is a lot easier than scoring so why are people concerned with an offensive pull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 BOTH TEAMS HAVE THIS ABILITY (assuming they have one class) The winner in all WZs should always go to the team that has more sages / sorcs. This already happens in the other two WZs, why not in huttball? If you are not playing a sorc / sage in PVP why are you even there? Re-roll, help out your team. As much as I hate to admit it, there is some truth behind your post. PvP in this game (at this point in time) is fairly biased to sages/sorcs and the crazy amount of utility they bring to their team. I'm just trying to get productive ideas on a smaller scale on how to reduce the amount of Rescue abuse that occurs in Huttball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girltank Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 The fundamental problem with the comparison between grapple and rescue, is the fact that one is RESOLVE dependant, as I've stated many times before. This is what creates the imbalance between the two abilities. one does get affected by resolve but the other requires you to get into a decent position which is much more difficult to control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 BOTH TEAMS HAVE THIS ABILITY (assuming they have one class) The winner in all WZs should always go to the team that has more sages / sorcs. This already happens in the other two WZs, why not in huttball? If you are not playing a sorc / sage in PVP why are you even there? Re-roll, help out your team. That's why in the next patch whenever a player enters a WZ as a non sorc, they have to watch an unskippable cutscene of them slowly walking through a crowd while being booed and having tomatoes thrown at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 except there is a defending team that has pulls pushes, stuns/pins to stop the tank from getting where he needs to go and the enemy Sage/sorc from getting into position to pull. Defending is a lot easier than scoring so why are people concerned with an offensive pull? I'd emplore you to actually watch a 4 man rescue train, that occurs within the first minute or so of play, and tell me how you'd get a pug to defend against it. Resolve also plays a big role in the potential abuse of rescue chains. In other MMOs, not naming any, deminishing returns negate chain stunning players, but still allow different types of CC to be used when (stuns for example) go on DR. This isn't the case with resolve, as 2 stuns will render the carrier immune to grapple, stuns, knockbacks etc. I personally don't agree with the resolve system, or the obscene amount of CC in this game, but again, that's not what this thread is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiekaboom Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) That's why in the next patch whenever a player enters a WZ as a non sorc, they have to watch an unskippable cutscene of them slowly walking through a crowd while being booed and having tomatoes thrown at them. In 1.2 we can just vote kick non-sorcs. Can't wait. Maybe keep a tracer spammers around, but 1.2 will include a "nerf to bounty hunters" (as per the IGN report) and I'm guessing that's tracer. Edited March 7, 2012 by lexiekaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar_Breeze Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Nothing I've said has been crying, thanks for your input though! Also, if you look at the two toolsets given to say, Pyrotechs and Sorcs. If we were to look at a pyrotech chain trying to pull a ball carrier across the map (while it would have to be an enemy carrier) this would be fundamentally impossible as there is a RESOLVE component to Grapple. This is where the imbalance occurs as Rescue chains are not dependant on anything but cooldown. There is nothing preventing long chains of Rescues to be used in quick succession to move the ball insanely fast across the map. I'm not disagreeing that these players used the tools given to them in a very efficient way, but it completely negates the need for passing, and the risks that are inherently involved in passing (such as intercepted passes, potentially missing your mark etc). ^ This. or at least a 30 second 'unmovable' type cooldown so that 5 sorcs and 3 runners cant just line up a pull chain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veyl Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) It's real difficult to see that a sorc/sage is going ahead of the pack for the pull, eh? It's also real difficult to: A) kill the sorc/sage before the pull can occur B) cc the sorc/sage then knock them off the platform C) grip the sorc/sage back to where the ball carrier is or to the sides of the map where they then have to run and catch up to the Carrier. Wait, it's not difficult to do any of those things. Thinking outside of the box in Huttball is hard. Edited March 7, 2012 by veyl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 one does get affected by resolve but the other requires you to get into a decent position which is much more difficult to control No, it definitely is not. Most pug teams see the flashing light of the ball carrier and swarm him. This makes it unbelievably easy for a sorc to run up the opposite side of the catwalk, rescue up the goal line, and receive a free point. This however isn't what I want changed, if you get one rescue that leads to a clever point, fantastic, you've used your ability well. However, if there are 4 sorcs/sages chaining rescues on the ball carrier and scoring within 5 seconds (with no chance of interception) of picking up the ball, that seems a bit broken to me. Also, there are many shortcomings of grapple, like hitting terrain when they're on the arc over to you and negating the effects of the grapple entirely, just as one example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 It's real difficult to see that a sorc/sage is going ahead of the pack for the pull, eh? It's also real difficult to: A) kill the sorc/sage before the pull can occur B) cc the sorc/sage then knock them off the platform C) grip the sorc/sage back to where the ball carrier is or to the sides of the map where they then have to run and catch up to the Carrier. Wait, it's not difficult to do any of those things. Thinking outside of the box in Huttball is hard. So you're suggesting that we simultaneously kill 4 sages with 15K+ health each, without them popping 1 GCD. The entire chain lasts ~5 seconds and once the first rescue has been launched, it's almost impossible to catch the carrier. Sure, knocking the sorcs who are chaining off is potentially a solution, but it's hard to see the opposing teams composition before the match even starts, so there's no way to tell if they're setting up without leaving someone behind at the catwalk on literally every single match. This may not be a problem to do with a premade, but in pugs it's hard to convince someone that they need to stay out of the action to watch for a potentially gamebreaking play. So many peoples posts end with obvious anger that I'd even bring this up. Why, so, serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 yup you dont pvp There is nothing to do BUT pvp in this game... calling someone out for not pvp'n in this game basically is just saying they dont play the game. ... you can only raid once a week max of 4 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar_Breeze Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 No, it definitely is not. Most pug teams see the flashing light of the ball carrier and swarm him. This makes it unbelievably easy for a sorc to run up the opposite side of the catwalk, rescue up the goal line, and receive a free point. This however isn't what I want changed, if you get one rescue that leads to a clever point, fantastic, you've used your ability well. However, if there are 4 sorcs/sages chaining rescues on the ball carrier and scoring within 5 seconds (with no chance of interception) of picking up the ball, that seems a bit broken to me. Also, there are many shortcomings of grapple, like hitting terrain when they're on the arc over to you and negating the effects of the grapple entirely, just as one example. exactly the problem with chain pulling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map. EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated! NO!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 exactly the problem with chain pulling The team that's chain pulling can use the top catwalks and avoid any terrain issues though, so your point is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruxe Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Should just add a lockout debuff like force shield has. Can't be Rescued again for 3 min or something. Really though Rescue isn't near as bad as what Knight/Juggs can do. Seen one jump from grabbing the ball to the goal line in about 5 seconds solo. Edited March 7, 2012 by Cruxe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 NO!!!!!! You bring up a good point. I concede to your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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