PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[ScarletBlaze]

You seem to be missing that they did not make or intend to make what you define as an MMO. SWTOR is what gets made when BioWare starts with a clean sheet and tries to designn an MMO and then uses existing methods to make the MMO they would make.

 

You want to play a WoW-like playstyle in a different type of game. BioWare chose not to go head to head for the type of player wanting that expererience. This game is more about experienceing a story than it is accomplishment.

 

Exactly. If I wanted to play wow I would have done so when I had the chance. I didn't and don't. I want to play something more than that. I enjoy the story and ther interaction without the meters that get into hands of people that have no business with them and sit there and judge someone else for no other reason than the numbers are there to do so.

 

They way bioware is doing it the only person to see the log is yourself and that's is the way it should be.

[valgar]

Nah, I for one hate the drama that goes on when these tools become an issue. Whether it effects me or not, being in a group and listening to the inane bickering revolving around detailed damage output drives me mad. I have not experienced that once in this game and am glad they are keeping it to a minimum as much as possible.

 

This man speaks truth.

[Seregul]

No, noone can log it without consent under that guy's proposal; so no choice is removed.

 

It's not really my proposal, that's just how it works in WoW. If you aren't grouped with anybody the combat log will only log your information, no matter what is happening around you. Only after you join a party or a raid is your information available to the people you are grouped with. Once you join a group nothing you do is private. Everyone can see what you do, how you're specced, how you're geared, and the way you behave in chat. How can you expect privacy in those situations?

 

And for the third time, how often do pugs parse their runs? I think this question is being avoided because the obvious answer is 'almost never'. Who here can honestly say they've been harassed with a log parse (a parse would be a linked URL, not spam from Recount or Skada)?

[GalacticKegger]

The biggest issue to me, is that if Bioware doesn't understand the value of combat logs, combat metrics, and real time feedback, then there is probably a lot of things about MMOs they do not understand.

 

Like voice acting? cuz my biggest complaint about WoW is definitely the voice acting. MAN! Bioware sure gets MMOs!

The dev panel made it perfectly clear where they stood on this issue at the Guild Summit. I'm also willing to wager that they understand MMOs fairly well - or this game (and thusly this forum) wouldn't exist. Trolls aside, this isn't about BioWare not understanding what some want ... it's about those some not accepting BioWare's decision to keep their game different and untainted. Voice acting has been BW's bread and butter since Baldur's Gate, so of course it's going to be TOR's foundation.

 

How does your "biggest complaint about WoW is definitely the voice acting" relate to wanting a real combat log? Other than cutscenes scattered throughout the game, I didn't think WoW had voice acting.

Edited March 8, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Derekloffin]

It's not really my proposal, that's just how it works in WoW. If you aren't grouped with anybody the combat log will only log your information, no matter what is happening around you. Only after you join a party or a raid is your information available to the people you are grouped with. Once you join a group nothing you do is private. Everyone can see what you do, how you're specced, how you're geared, and the way you behave in chat. How can you expect privacy in those situations?

 

And for the third time, how often do pugs parse their runs? I think this question is being avoided because the obvious answer is 'almost never'. Who here can honestly say they've been harassed with a log parse (a parse would be a linked URL, not spam from Recount or Skada)?

 

Me personally, never, but that's mostly due to me playing healers. Been in groups where someone else gets harassed with it, about a dozen times, and only about a 1/4 of those were legitimately worth harassment in my mind.

 

That may not seem like a lot but then I think to all my raid or party time where the log was used constructively, and I can only think of about 3 times, all of which a private log would have also covered.

[lollermittens]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

[Verdakk]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal

majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

 

AMEN

 

BW will figure out what WoW did. The general forums consist of the player base that doesn't want to raid, contribute, or even improve the game they have created. They want to whine, feel they are entitled to the best gear without having to work for it etc.

 

WoW developers frequently visited EJ and then eventually used guilds as feedback for end game content. I bet eventually they will be looking at Sithwarrior to get constructive feedback that is rarely found on these forums.

 

When you make a post that actually addresses something BW should look at for longetivity it is met with flames, insults, and no quantifiable or qualitative arguments that are worth a damn.

 

The Irony is that all of these players have no idea just how big of an impact we "elitists" have on the continuing success of many MMOs. In fact it was damage meters that lead developers to tune content for access to the masses.

 

They bite the hand that feeds them, I love it.

[Glowrod]

No. people don't need to see others combat logs. The intentions may be good, but the reality is that people will use the info to act like elitists and qq others, frequently for no other reason that to be a bully. (Hard to think of words that will get past the language filters)

 

If you are truely a leader of a group, you will be able to tell if someone isn't holding up their end of the stick. If the tank isn't holding agro, then blame the tank. If people are not getting heals, blame the healer. If there's isn't enough DPS, you only have 2 people it can be and it shouldn't be too hard to nail it down to one person.

 

The system that they propose where you can see your OWN performance is just fine. It allows me to fine tune my combat and doesn't allow others to stick their noses where they don't belong.

[ScarletBlaze]

It's not really my proposal, that's just how it works in WoW. If you aren't grouped with anybody the combat log will only log your information, no matter what is happening around you. Only after you join a party or a raid is your information available to the people you are grouped with. Once you join a group nothing you do is private. Everyone can see what you do, how you're specced, how you're geared, and the way you behave in chat. How can you expect privacy in those situations?

 

And for the third time, how often do pugs parse their runs? I think this question is being avoided because the obvious answer is 'almost never'. Who here can honestly say they've been harassed with a log parse (a parse would be a linked URL, not spam from Recount or Skada)?

 

Not me because after a friend was harrassed and made to feel like she wasn't performing to their satisfication I refused to run with people like that.

 

What's funny though even though she was harrassed and yelled at for not performing to their satisfication, she was the only one left fighting the boss, yet according to these "idiots" she was horrible.

 

When people use these to intentionally to harrassed and make other players feel bad I have a serious problem with it.

 

It took us time to tell her it wasn't her because honestly she was better than she thought she was. I dislke people making people feel like that just because they want to be idiots and jerks and think they have to blame someone for something instead of learning to work together.

[Vydor_HC]

No. people don't need to see others combat logs. The intentions may be good, but the reality is that people will use the info to act like elitists and qq others, frequently for no other reason that to be a bully. (Hard to think of words that will get past the language filters)

 

If you are truely a leader of a group, you will be able to tell if someone isn't holding up their end of the stick. If the tank isn't holding agro, then blame the tank. If people are not getting heals, blame the healer. If there's isn't enough DPS, you only have 2 people it can be and it shouldn't be too hard to nail it down to one person.

 

The system that they propose where you can see your OWN performance is just fine. It allows me to fine tune my combat and doesn't allow others to stick their noses where they don't belong.

 

-nods-

 

What they are implementing will cover the vast majority of needs by the player base. Of course some will be left out and not get what they want, but they will just have to adjust or leave. Bioware has moved their cheese.

[GalacticKegger]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

More simply put ... they are paying 50¢ a day to play a video game, not compete in a science fair. They aren't scared of anything other than the game becoming a 2nd job. Some happen to be modern day Galileos IRL (engineers, scientists, artists, musicians, etc.) who want nothing to do with work once they've logged on. Separating real life from avatar life can be a transition made less painful by accepting others choices and preferences for what they are, just as you would have them accept yours. Edited March 8, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Seregul]

Not me because after a friend was harrassed and made to feel like she wasn't performing to their satisfication I refused to run with people like that.

 

What's funny though even though she was harrassed and yelled at for not performing to their satisfication, she was the only one left fighting the boss, yet according to these "idiots" she was horrible.

 

When people use these to intentionally to harrassed and make other players feel bad I have a serious problem with it.

 

It took us time to tell her it wasn't her because honestly she was better than she thought she was. I dislke people making people feel like that just because they want to be idiots and jerks and think they have to blame someone for something instead of learning to work together.

 

I don't think you meant to quote me, because this answered none of my questions.

[Elysith]

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much........

 

If the calculation power could exist to resolve Chess if possible, it would simply ruin the game.

Knowledge is good, but knowledge can break the fun.

 

I don't need to see the process of a film making, to enjoy the final movie.

 

I don't need to study the recipe of a cake to enjoy eating it.

 

I don't need to know the internal logic of a game to enjoy playing it.

 

 

And so far in this thread, to few exceptions, people are against force shared self combat logs, not against private self combat logs. Which is the dilemma emphasized by the poll.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Elysith

[lollermittens]

Not me because after a friend was harrassed and made to feel like she wasn't performing to their satisfication I refused to run with people like that.

 

What's funny though even though she was harrassed and yelled at for not performing to their satisfication, she was the only one left fighting the boss, yet according to these "idiots" she was horrible.

 

When people use these to intentionally to harrassed and make other players feel bad I have a serious problem with it.

 

It took us time to tell her it wasn't her because honestly she was better than she thought she was. I dislke people making people feel like that just because they want to be idiots and jerks and think they have to blame someone for something instead of learning to work together.

 

And whose fault is that? When you willingly group with 4 other people (3 in this case) and you're bringing your crappy gear, crappy build, and have no solid rotation down, you are indeed making the gameplay experience worse for all the other players. The argument that "it's a game and I can play it however I want" simply doesn't fly here because you are playing a multiplayer game. You have to accept the consequences of gimping your party and wasting other people's time.

 

How selfish can you get?

[lollermittens]

If the calculation power could exist to resolve Chess if possible, it would simply ruin the game.

Knowledge is good, but knowledge is not necessarily fun.

 

I don't need to see the process of a film making, to enjoy the final movie.

 

I don't need to study the recipe of a cake to enjoy eating it.

 

I don't need to know the internal logic of a game to enjoy playing it.

 

 

And so far in this thread, to few exceptions, people are against shared combat logs, not against personal combat logs. Which is the question emphasized by the poll.

 

Your comparisons simply don't work here. I want quantitative, accurate data regarding my actions in a virtual game world that can be viewed by everyone else. Performance in a virtual world matters whether you believe it or not

 

I'm not asking for their internal development methods and I'm also not asking them to show me how they create each polygon for each piece of gear.

 

I want to tailor my gameplay experience in the most efficient way possible. You're obviously not interested in that goal. I am. That's the difference between us.

Edited March 8, 2012 by lollermittens

[Vydor_HC]

Your comparisons simply don't work here. I want quantitative, accurate data regarding my actions in a virtual game world that can be viewed by everyone else. Performance in a virtual world matters whether you believe it or not

 

I'm not asking for their internal development methods and I'm also not asking them to show me how they create each polygon for each piece of gear.

 

I want to tailor my gameplay experience in the most efficient way possible. You're obviously not interested in that goal. I am. That's the difference between us.

 

That's what you are getting. Unless you're talking about getting "quantitative, accurate" data concerning others in your group, your requirements will be met.

[Frezzyisfuzzy]

Ok, so I proposed a solution yesterday and then got distracted, but no one really gave a reasonable argument against it.

 

Make it the raid/group leader's decision (much like loot options) whether or not logs are public.

 

This would allow everyone to play the way they want. If you join a group and see that public logs are enabled, but you don't want to be scrutinized, then leave the group. The two attitudes behind these sides seem so different that those two people probably don't want to group together anyway.

 

The only semi-coherent argument one could make against this is that there's too many people that would demand they be public. But if you claim that, then you're admitting that the pro public log crowd is a significant portion of this game's population. And if that's the case, then we have just as much a right to our viewpoint and playstyle as you guys have to yours.

 

Honestly, I'd be fine if they just made new servers with public logs enabled. I wouldn't even care about a free transfer. I'd reroll on that server, and I'm sure a large group of like-minded people would as well. That probably is the best solution, but I doubt it's going to happen.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Frezzyisfuzzy

[lollermittens]

That's what you are getting. Unless you're talking about getting "quantitative, accurate" data concerning others in your group, your requirements will be met.

 

I don't consider a third-party program that will dump all of my actions into a text file as a combat log. This is rubbish. Plain and simple.

 

Are we going to have to create a repository where people can dump their text files and compare their parses? What is this? 1988?

 

People who are against a combat log that shows that activity of others are simply players who currently lack confidence in their ability to play optimally and are scared to get scolded once people discover so. One just has to read most of the nay-sayers and 99% of the time, their argument will revolve around the fact that them or one of their friends got scolded for having bad gear or playing badly.

 

What are you? 5 years old? How is that a bad thing? If somebody (and let's make this clear: the claims have to be valid) does that, they're actually doing you a service and you should take some time off playing the game and inform yourself a little bit regarding whatever shortcomings you had. I

 

If you want a good, knowledgeable community, that is what is required. Not the "It's-my game-and-I-can-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want" attitude. But this is wishful thinking anyways.

[Vydor_HC]

Ok, so I proposed a solution yesterday and then got distracted, but no one really gave a reasonable argument against it.

 

Make it the raid/group leader's decision (much like loot options) whether or not logs are public.

 

This would allow everyone to play the way they want. If you join a group and see that public logs are enabled, but you don't want to be scrutinized, then leave the group. The two attitudes behind these sides seem so different that those two people probably don't want to group together anyway.

 

The only semi-coherent argument one could make against this is that there's too many people that would demand they be public. But if you claim that, then you're admitting that the pro public log crowd is a significant portion of this game's population. And if that's the case, then we have just as much a right to our viewpoint and playstyle as you guys have to yours.

 

Honestly, I'd be fine if they just made new servers with public logs enabled. I wouldn't even care about a free transfer. I'd reroll on that server, and I'm sure a large group of like-minded people would as well. That probably is the best solution, but I doubt it's going to happen.

 

 

-nods-

 

I think logically this might be in the future, but haven't heard so from Bioware. Essentially it will be what we have now, however I don't know how many PUG leaders will demand logs, but many will flip the switch if they can.

 

I do think that it will require more number crunching on the game to log whats going on in an encounter...it can get pretty laggy sometimes and keeping the code as efficient as possible might be a reason to keep it out as a toggle.

[ScarletBlaze]

And whose fault is that? When you willingly group with 4 other people (3 in this case) and you're bringing your crappy gear, crappy build, and have no solid rotation down, you are indeed making the gameplay experience worse for all the other players. The argument that "it's a game and I can play it however I want" simply doesn't fly here because you are playing a multiplayer game. You have to accept the consequences of gimping your party and wasting other people's time.

 

How selfish can you get?

 

Not hers. Her gear was up to date and exactly better than anyone elses. She was actually better than they were. So you see your argument doesn't hold water. They were taking the stupid logs and comparing them to theirs yet they didn't know how to damn well play their class and only blamed her because of their stupid attitudes.

 

People that do that are why I disagree with combat logs being available for everyone to see.

 

So she wasn't wasting their times they were wasting hers by complaining and letting her do all the work.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[lollermittens]

Ok, so I proposed a solution yesterday and then got distracted, but no one really gave a reasonable argument against it.

 

Make it the raid/group leader's decision (much like loot options) whether or not logs are public.

 

This would allow everyone to play the way they want. If you join a group and see that public logs are enabled, but you don't want to be scrutinized, then leave the group. The two attitudes behind these sides seem so different that those two people probably don't want to group together anyway.

 

The only semi-coherent argument one could make against this is that there's too many people that would demand they be public. But if you claim that, then you're admitting that the pro public log crowd is a significant portion of this game's population. And if that's the case, then we have just as much a right to our viewpoint and playstyle as you guys have to yours.

 

Honestly, I'd be fine if they just made new servers with public logs enabled. I wouldn't even care about a free transfer. I'd reroll on that server, and I'm sure a large group of like-minded people would as well. That probably is the best solution, but I doubt it's going to happen.

 

It shouldn't be the raid's leader/flashpoint leader opinion. It should be a vote like the /votekick they're implementing.

 

That's a sensible solution.

[Gaje]

lol for the lack of votes to support this

 

A combat log as has been proposed is more then acceptable

 

heck the one in SWG provided lag trying to feed all that data to you and that we do not need !

[Vydor_HC]

I don't consider a third-party program that will dump all of my actions into a text file as a combat log. This is rubbish. Plain and simple.

 

Are we going to have to create a repository where people can dump their text files and compare their parses? What is this? 1988?

 

People who are against a combat log that shows that activity of others are simply players who currently lack confidence in their ability to play optimally and are scared to get scolded once people discover so. One just has to read most of the nay-sayers and 99% of the time, their argument will revolve around the fact that them or one of their friends got scolded for having bad gear or playing badly.

 

What are you? 5 years old? How is that a bad thing? If somebody (and let's make this clear: the claims have to be valid) does that, they're actually doing you a service and you should take some time off playing the game and inform yourself a little bit regarding whatever shortcomings you had. I

 

If you want a good, knowledgeable community, that is what is required. Not the "It's-my game-and-I-can-do-whatever-the-hell-I-want" attitude. But this is wishful thinking anyways.

 

 

You make childish insults to me and call me 5 years old? Comical.

 

You will be getting exactly what numbers you want from the log. Crying about how you get to view them is your problem not theirs. There are plenty of games out there today that use the log parse method of analysis, and it's perfectly viable.

 

You can adapt or leave or whine. Your choice.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Snibb]

It's so simple... Offer in game combat logs/dps meters/threat meters. Make them toggle on/off. Make sharing them toggle on/off.

 

If you don't like to use them for all of the reasons mentioned by others, then why on earth (or nar shadaa) would you want to group with people who want to use them (and therefore care about performance on that level?)

These people care about performance with or without logs, and if you don't, there is going to be conflict. Save yourself the trouble if you don't want advice, or don't want to be harrassed. People can still tell during a fight if you're standing in the death aura, or if you're just constantly spamming your "free ability" to skate by, and you're still going to be harrassed for that sort of thing. If you're just okay at playing your character, and leave your log private, and that's agreed on up front, no one will have a problem.

 

This way, you have a solid metric to measure personal performance, while still having the option too keep said metric private.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Snibb

[Vydor_HC]

It's so simple... Offer in game combat logs/dps meters/threat meters. Make them toggle on/off. Make sharing them toggle on/off.

 

If you don't like to use them for all of the reasons mentioned by others, then why on earth (or nar shadaa) would you want to group with people who want to use them (and therefore care about performance on that level?)

These people care about performance with or without logs, and if you don't, there is going to be conflict. Save yourself the trouble if you don't want advice, or don't want to be harrassed. People can still tell during a fight if you're standing in the death aura, or if you're just constantly spamming your "free ability" to skate by.

 

This way, you have a solid metric to measure personal performance, while still having the option too keep said metric private.

 

I have zero issues getting a problem finding a PUG FP group in the game today. I have not been in a group that has not completed an FP either. Why would I want to cut down the number of groups I can find simply because some people want to see damage output when it's not necessary?