PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Loendar]

Exactly how would "my" implemation process remove any choice at all..?

 

You still have the right to choose who you group with and what tools you use.

 

You want me to tell you exactly? Okay.

 

If you want to raid with me you *must* allow me to see your log. I *do* want to raid.

 

You have removed my choice by presenting only one option.

 

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

[Andryah]

They said somewhere that they are already storing that server side. Most MMO's do, in fact, so that's not an additional overhead. Blizzard and SOE have both made comments referring to them.

 

That is a nonsequitor to the topic

 

They store a huge amount of everything server side. That means nothing in the context of having a client side combat log.

 

They had a client side combat log in beta, so the basic coding was done long ago. They just did not include it at release, probably because of the issues being argued adnaseum in this thread.

[ferroz]

Agreed. Every major MMO (including this one) stores every action taken into their DB for whatever future reporting they might want to make on that data. I understand that and agree that it is happening here as well, so maybe my comment about the overhead wasn't exactly what I meant to imply.

 

It's more that I don't see them running SQL (or Oracle) queries against their database every time I ask for MY data as being an overly efficient way to approach this. Assuming you take the path of least resistance you would simply stream the data to a log file as it happens and their comment about 'download' is just a poorly chosen phrasing.

it'd be a query, probably filtered using the numeric Id for your character, and the table would be indexed by that foreign key... results would be pretty snappy, even with ginormous data sets.

 

Most likely, they'd pull it from some sort of cached/materialized view that's already filtered down in some way (only the last X hours, filtered by server, etc) to improve performance.

 

That can have those request hit a distributed database system that isn't tied to the main server application, so those queries wouldn't impact the game itself. I don't they could do that with the client pulling continuous details.

 

If they're banking on people not using it all that often (maybe with enforced usage limitations), then they wind up with less overhead from that than they would have from people continuously pulling the detailed log.

[Seregul]

If we follow the Rift approach for a minute to explore this...... I think they meant to say "uploadable". In Rift, you as the user get to decide if you want combat logging or not. If you do, you select that in game and it then maintains log file. You can then upload that file anywhere you like, or load it into an application to parse it, etc. etc.

 

The only thing not clear yet is if you will be able to pase the log file in real time or not. If the log file resides on your computer, then by definition you can parse it in real time using an application like ACT.

 

Now, in Rift they allowed 3rd party apis to overlay your UI so you could actually look at ACT data while playing the game, but it was not that useful compared to the graphical analytics ACT gives you if you alt-tab to ACT from the game client.

 

Combat log + ACT + A Target (target dummy, target mob, target boss, etc) and you had the abiltiy to analyze your performance in depth. Unfortunately, you could also analyze everyone elses performance in depth without their consent.

 

The crux of the issue here is logging and analyzing other peoples combat information without their consent. That IS THE CORE ISSUE. And Bioware has simply chosen a path that puts consent in the hands of the person doing the damage. They can share the information with anyone they choose to. Conversely, nobody can see and review their information without their consent. It's the mature approach to a real problem of immaturity (ie: abusing others with data) on the part of some users inside MMOs.

 

And by joining a group to do a heroic quest, FP, or an Op, you are giving that consent. These people are going to very literally see everything that you are doing.

 

And I'll ask again, how often are parses run for anything but guild-only raids? In all my time in WoW I ran exactly one parse for a pug raid, and that was only because someone else requested it, and I had a WoL account. I never parsed a 5-man.

[Andryah]

Exactly how would "my" implemation process remove any choice at all..?

 

You still have the right to choose who you group with and what tools you use.

 

Your implementation allows some tool standing next to someone else to log their combat data and then proceed to try to grief the person with it, probably for no other reason then griefing and ego fulfillment.

 

If you cannot understand this core issue, then you have bounary issues.

 

Quite frankly boundary issues inside MMOs is precisely why things like combat logging gets abused in MMOs by some players.

[Matte_Black]

If that's the case i have no idea what im paying $15 a month for. I pay $15 a month for an MMO, if it's not what it's advertising then I'm being swindled.

 

Just out of curiosity, why play this game and not one that has more of the features you want. Combat logs, especially the kind you like, have seemed very unlikely for inclusion in most dev comments since back before release.

[ferroz]

That is a nonsequitor to the topic

No, it's on topic. We're talking about whether what they've actually talked about gives that particualr person what they want. I'm pointing out that there are some flaws in the assumptions people are using.

 

They store a huge amount of everything server side. That means nothing in the context of having a client side combat log.

Yes, it does; I'm talking about the fact that they didn't actually say they were going to have a client side log, that they've used the word downloadable, and I've done some speculating as to why they chose that word.

 

They had a client side combat log in beta, so the basic coding was done long ago. They just did not include it at release, probably because of the issues being argued adnaseum in this thread.

Their claim was that it was for performance reasons. Those performance problems wouldn't have changed, so my suspicion is that they will implement something different, perhaps significantly so.

[ferroz]

Combat logs, especially the kind you like, have seemed very unlikely for inclusion in most dev comments since back before release.

they were in the beta... and people were surprised when they were removed.

[DadadadaBATMAN]

they were in the beta... and people were surprised when they were removed.

 

Why is this still an issue?

 

Combat logs are coming. You won't be able to parse them in-game, but during the guild summit they said that it would be possible with a 3rd party program. I took this to mean something similar to World of Logs.

[Loxion]

Combat logs etc can help some players, that is undeniable. However, in my experience across numerous games that have included them, those people are the minority. The majority just use them as a means to kick people from groups (not help them improve), use them as an epeen stroker (my DPS is higher than yours) or in some otherway make themselves feel good at anothers expense. This, in my opinion, is a good enough excuse to not include them as they are not essential to play the game.

 

So, as far as the vote goes, I vote no.

[ferroz]

You want me to tell you exactly? Okay.

 

If you want to raid with me you *must* allow me to see your log. I *do* want to raid.

 

You have removed my choice by presenting only one option.

False; your options are:

• Give him your log and raid with him
  
• Give him your log and don't raid with him
  
• Don't give him your log and don't raid at all
  
• Don't give him your log and raid with someone else that doesn't require it.
  
• etc
  

 

 

You have multiple options; the fact that you don't like some of them doesn't make them non-options. You're not being forced to do anything.

[Andryah]

And by joining a group to do a heroic quest, FP, or an Op, you are giving that consent. These people are going to very literally see everything that you are doing.

 

Consent is something someone must give. If by joinging a group, your consent is removed, then it's not consent.

 

Depending on the group, you may or may not want to consent to log sharing.

 

I know that if I am in a PUG where they are all strangers, and I know nothing about them, I'm not consenting to anything other then what is mutually agreed upon by the group before the encounter starts. Especially if it were a PUG raid, because people that form PUG raids quite often like to be dictators and imposers.

 

I know that if I am in a group with fellow guild members, I know them and I would consent ot share just about everything with them. Which is why I do not oppose group logging IF all members of the group are in the same guild. The guild structure generally prevents the kind of ******ery that any random player in a PUG can/will do to fellow group members.

[Stupiddrummer]

Just out of curiosity, why play this game and not one that has more of the features you want. Combat logs, especially the kind you like, have seemed very unlikely for inclusion in most dev comments since back before release.

 

I came here for two things: Star Wars and an MMORPG

 

The game is filled with Star Wars stuff. Just not MMORPG stuff.

 

and before you say something like "yeah well this isn't every MMORPG," this game is WoW with a star wars coat of paint, and the freaking innovation of "hey lets get rid of that pesky auto attack...people like mashing buttons right?"

[Loendar]

it'd be a query, probably filtered using the numeric Id for your character, and the table would be indexed by that foreign key... results would be pretty snappy, even with ginormous data sets.

 

Most likely, they'd pull it from some sort of cached/materialized view that's already filtered down in some way (only the last X hours, filtered by server, etc) to improve performance.

 

That can have those request hit a distributed database system that isn't tied to the main server application, so those queries wouldn't impact the game itself. I don't they could do that with the client pulling continuous details.

 

If they're banking on people not using it all that often (maybe with enforced usage limitations), then they wind up with less overhead from that than they would have from people continuously pulling the detailed log.

 

I spend a lot of time working with enormous databases and the Infrastructure around them - so I'm pretty well-versed in what you are talking about. It doesn't take a lot to bring even the most robust DB system to its knees with concurrent queries from just a few people, multiply that by those playing the game and you are asking for trouble.

 

I don't think the approach you are leaning towards is realistic - and I have a lot of experience trying to allow pretty much what you are saying they might be doing.

 

I gather from your response(s) that you are also pretty well informed on the subject and I think you are understating the impact of what you profess (maybe on purpose).

[Andryah]

combat logs etc can help some players, that is undeniable. However, in my experience across numerous games that have included them, those people are the minority. The majority just use them as a means to kick people from groups (not help them improve), use them as an epeen stroker (my dps is higher than yours) or in some otherway make themselves feel good at anothers expense. This, in my opinion, is a good enough excuse to not include them as they are not essential to play the game.

 

exactly.

[Drewser]

No, it's on topic. We're talking about whether what they've actually talked about gives that particualr person what they want. I'm pointing out that there are some flaws in the assumptions people are using.

 

Yes, it does; I'm talking about the fact that they didn't actually say they were going to have a client side log, that they've used the word downloadable, and I've done some speculating as to why they chose that word.

 

Their claim was that it was for performance reasons. Those performance problems wouldn't have changed, so my suspicion is that they will implement something different, perhaps significantly so.

 

They have also said there will be info in a chat log. We don't anything about it other than something like "what you killed and what killed you".

 

Maybe it will have the damage you delivered and received as part part of the killing/being killed maybe not.

 

It should be on test soon.

[ferroz]

If you listen to the devs, you sort of are right. Yes, the game functions on values but, it is supposed to represent a world lacking such exactly measured values.

Sounds exactly like what the everquest dev's talked about. You know, a game with a fully detailed combat log, that included everyone within range. Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[Loendar]

False; your options are:

• Give him your log and raid with him
  
• Give him your log and don't raid with him
  
• Don't give him your log and don't raid at all
  
• Don't give him your log and raid with someone else that doesn't require it.
  
• etc
  

 

 

You have multiple options; the fact that you don't like some of them doesn't make them non-options. You're not being forced to do anything.

 

To a degree. Although the implementation they are presenting gives me MORE choices (and him too, for that matter). More is better. /nod

[Andryah]

I came here for two things: Star Wars and an MMORPG

 

The game is filled with Star Wars stuff. Just not MMORPG stuff.

 

and before you say something like "yeah well this isn't every MMORPG," this game is WoW with a star wars coat of paint, and the freaking innovation of "hey lets get rid of that pesky auto attack...people like mashing buttons right?"

 

Sounds like your fundamental needs in an MMO are not being met with this MMO. Maybe a little genuine self-reflection and you will conclude the same thing and find something you actually enjoy.

 

None of which has anything to do with this specific topic. You are using the topic as a soapbox to express your unhappiness about this MMO.

[Stupiddrummer]

Sounds like your fundamental needs in an MMO are not being met with this MMO. Maybe a little genuine self-reflection and you will conclude the same thing and find something you actually enjoy.

 

None of which has anything to do with this specific topic. You are using the topic as a soapbox to express your unhappiness about this MMO.

 

Firstly, since posting in this thread yesterday, I have installed Global Agenda. That game is actually pretty fun (and has combat logs lol).

 

Secondly - it may have been a tangent - but the original point was if Bioware doesn't see the value in combat metrics, a lot of their other video games ideas are probably also flawed.

 

Edit; Thirdly - personal reflection - how much displeasure am i willing to subject myself to in order to satiate my love for star wars

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Andryah]

Secondly - it may have been a tangent - but the original point was if Bioware doesn't see the value in combat metrics, a lot of their other video games ideas are probably also flawed.

 

Actually, Bioware does see the value of combat metrics. This is why they are adding personal combat logging into the game for players.

 

The fact that they have the foresight and care with respect to combat log data abuse in other MMOs shows that they actully are mindful of protecting their player base from such abuse as has become common in other MMOs.

 

Just because you do not agree with their approach to some aspect of their MMO design does not invalidate their approach. It only invalidates it for you.

[Valens_Andorius]

IMHO when metrics are relied upon so heavily it takes the GAME part out of the MMO. Yeah they can be helpful for those looking to improve, but its like this (To ME):

 

Imagine watching Star Wars (Any of them) and instead of seeing a seamless feature you have to watch the camera turn, see the mic grip guy, and hear George Lucas give the actors ques during a cut scene etc...

 

Metrics are delving into the mechanics/grey-matter of the brain of the game, and yeah some people like that, but for me it RUINS the feel of what SHOULD BE an adventure.

 

If I wanted to bandy about mathematics I would go be an Engineer.

 

This is why I love seeing BW implement a PRIVATE system.

[Stupiddrummer]

IMHO when metrics are relied upon so heavily it takes the GAME part out of the MMO. Yeah they can be helpful for those looking to improve, but its like this (To ME):

 

Imagine watching Star Wars (Any of them) and instead of seeing a seamless feature you have to watch the camera turn, see the mic grip guy, and hear George Lucas give the actors ques during a cut scene etc...

 

Metrics are delving into the mechanics/grey-matter of the brain of the game, and yeah some people like that, but for me it RUINS the feel of what SHOULD BE an adventure.

 

If I wanted to bandy about mathematics I would go be an Engineer.

 

This is why I love seeing BW implement a PRIVATE system.

 

part of the game of an MMO is complex metrics. It may not be fun to you, but it is fun to me.

[Valens_Andorius]

part of the game of an MMO is complex metrics. It may not be fun to you, but it is fun to me.

 

Thanks for clarifying what IMHO means.

[Drewser]

So much for the analogy discussion.

 

But my one point that got deleted was Bioware is trying to give 2 very diverse parties both what they would like in the game as far as logs go.

 

Given that, both sides will not get exactly what they want.