So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[EternalFinality]

It is a skill, I concur. So is min/maxing.

 

Min/maxing is taking a set of constraints and trying to find the best combination. Gearing is NOT min/maxing. It's just searching for a way to increase the min to compensate.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[ohnam]

So essentially you're telling us that you don't want PvP to be about skill. I didn't think someone would come out and just say it so plainly.

 

True skill that incorporates you actually having to aim and make tactical decisions are truly encompassed in fps. In RTS there is some dice rolling.

 

There are too many factors to call anything real skills in mmo's. Did the designers make the class balanced? Population balanced? The only real skill is min maxing imo.

[Laokoon]

So there has to be a way for each class through stats or abilities to beat someone of equal skill. Sometimes that is gear.

 

Why?

 

Why MUST there be away to beat someone of exactly equal skill? Even IF that were the case, then when both people of equal skill have the exact same best of the best gear you are again in the position where you have a stalemate because people have equal skill.

 

In a competition, the person with the better skill is more respected, and typically will and should win. When both people have exactly equal skill why should gear decide the outcome?

 

I said it several posts ago, and I will state it again in-case you missed it. I want a competition of skill. You want a competition of gear. That is fine, but realize that you are in the minority. As far back as there has been recorded competition, people have striven to level the playing field and make the competition about skill. You don't like that, you want a gear competition. Fine, but you are the minority.

 

And at the end of the day, when you are only going up against people who have the same exact uber gear that you have eventually, you won't have fun because there will be no difference in gear since enough people worked just as hard as you did to get the same gear. I am sorry for you because in the long run, you wont be happy with any game because ultimately they always come down to skill eventually, when enough people have the same gear sets. I just want that competition of skill to take place now so we can see who has the best skill rather than it take place somewhere down the line.

[EternalFinality]

True skill that incorporates you actually having to aim and make tactical decisions are truly encompassed in fps. In RTS there is some dice rolling.

 

PvP in different genres is about different skills? You don't say!

 

"True skill" is the best switch skills at aiming a gun? Get out.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[ohnam]

Min/maxing is taking a set of constraints and trying to find the best combination. Gearing is NOT min/maxing. It's just searching for a way to increase the min to compensate.

 

true but unfortunately in SWTOR gear and builds are the only way to do this.

[EternalFinality]

true but unfortunately in SWTOR gear and builds are the only way to do this.

 

Mods and builds are the way to do this, actually, if the gear was equal.

[Delavager]

No, you're not. PvP doesn't get progressively harder as time goes on. PvE does.

 

That's not true. PvP does get harder as time goes on. If you relate the opposing team to MoBs as you gain levels, the opposing team gains HP and does higher dmg, has more abilities etc.

 

When you hit 50 to when you are geared BM, the opponents are doing the same exact thing.

 

Basically you need to think of it as while you are progressing, so are your opponents in PvP both in skill and gear. Thus PvP does get progressively harder as time goes on.

[TetraCleric]

True skill that incorporates you actually having to aim and make tactical decisions are truly encompassed in fps. In RTS there is some dice rolling.

 

There are too many factors to call anything real skills in mmo's. Did the designers make the class balanced? Population balanced? The only real skill is min maxing imo.

 

What does population balance have to do with skill?

[ohnam]

Why?

 

Why MUST there be away to beat someone of exactly equal skill? Even IF that were the case, then when both people of equal skill have the exact same best of the best gear you are again in the position where you have a stalemate because people have equal skill.

 

In a competition, the person with the better skill is more respected, and typically will and should win. When both people have exactly equal skill why should gear decide the outcome?

 

I said it several posts ago, and I will state it again in-case you missed it. I want a competition of skill. You want a competition of gear. That is fine, but realize that you are in the minority. As far back as there has been recorded competition, people have striven to level the playing field and make the competition about skill. You don't like that, you want a gear competition. Fine, but you are the minority.

 

And at the end of the day, when you are only going up against people who have the same exact uber gear that you have eventually, you won't have fun because there will be no difference in gear since enough people worked just as hard as you did to get the same gear. I am sorry for you because in the long run, you wont be happy with any game because ultimately they always come down to skill eventually, when enough people have the same gear sets. I just want that competition of skill to take place now so we can see who has the best skill rather than it take place somewhere down the line.

 

But you are delusional also if you believe mmo's will be about true skills when these games can never be balanced unless their is only one class.

[Bovinity]

True skill that incorporates you actually having to aim and make tactical decisions are truly encompassed in fps. In RTS there is some dice rolling.

 

Dexterity isn't the only skill in the world.

 

There are too many factors to call anything real skills in mmo's. Did the designers make the class balanced? Population balanced? The only real skill is min maxing imo.

 

Then why even PvP? Why not just sit on the space station and inspect people, look at their stats and say, "I'm better than that guy. And that guy. Oo, crap, this guy is better than me."

[ohnam]

That's not true. PvP does get harder as time goes on. If you relate the opposing team to MoBs as you gain levels, the opposing team gains HP and does higher dmg, has more abilities etc.

 

When you hit 50 to when you are geared BM, the opponents are doing the same exact thing.

 

Basically you need to think of it as while you are progressing, so are your opponents in PvP both in skill and gear. Thus PvP does get progressively harder as time goes on.

 

good point.

[ohnam]

What does population balance have to do with skill?

 

Nothing but mmo's dont have true skill. But people can still win if their numbers are greater.

 

 

Warzones, people leave and that leaves a team unbalanced correct? World pvp, huge factor there.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ohnam

[TetraCleric]

That's not true. PvP does get harder as time goes on. If you relate the opposing team to MoBs as you gain levels, the opposing team gains HP and does higher dmg, has more abilities etc.

 

When you hit 50 to when you are geared BM, the opponents are doing the same exact thing.

 

Basically you need to think of it as while you are progressing, so are your opponents in PvP both in skill and gear. Thus PvP does get progressively harder as time goes on.

 

What? We're not talking about low level PvP. We're talking about PvP at 50, in a competitive environment. It doesn't get progressively harder. There's no enrage timers to meet so the opponent doesn't one shot you. You don't need to worry about not standing some place, or having to stand in a specific area. You worry about your skill, and the skill of your opponent. When gear comes into play, it's a crutch, and is not competitive.

[Delavager]

But you are delusional also if you believe mmo's will be about true skills when these games can never be balanced unless their is only one class.

 

What the hell is "true skill"? That's a made up phrase.

 

If you want to get down to it skill is a very subjective and generic word. There is "skill" in leveling, "skill" in gearing, "skill" in gear choices, "skill" in abilities choices, "skill" in strategy, "skill" in that ability to use your spells/abilities, "skill" in knowing the opponents spells/abilities, "skill" in knowing when who used what, etc. etc.

 

So in theory there is a lot of different "skills" involved in this game. What specific "Skill" are you referring to?

[ohnam]

Dexterity isn't the only skill in the world.

 

 

 

Then why even PvP? Why not just sit on the space station and inspect people, look at their stats and say, "I'm better than that guy. And that guy. Oo, crap, this guy is better than me."

 

But this is simulated combat correct? Its a major one for combat.

 

For your second point I won't be afraid to lose to this guy and qq about it.

[TetraCleric]

Nothing but mmo's dont have true skill. But people can still win if their numbers are greater.

 

 

Warzones, people leave and that leaves a team unbalanced correct? World pvp, huge factor there.

 

You're right. Hand eye coordination isn't a skill. Critical thinking isn't a skill. Situational awareness isn't a skill.

 

Nobody is trying to claim that zerging takes skill, or that people leaving your warzone doesn't suck. I'm just trying to figure out how you want to relate that to skill.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TetraCleric

[drduncan]

I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.

 

Progressive raiding is the only viable model for PVE in any game.

 

Player versus Player is not limited by the same intrinsic difficulties that PVE is.

 

Every PVP match or duel or whatever is dynamic. The competition is what people are playing for, not the ability to kill a stronger meaner dragon. The only reason to get better gear in PVP is to stay competitive with your opponents. Gear isn't required in pvp because the players you have to kill are not like the next tier's raid boss with a 10-20% scaling of health and damage output. This is why they are different.

 

Having gear progression is fine as long as it is reasonably attainable to the majority of the playing population, but really it isn't necessary at all to most people that truly enjoy pvp for the fun of it and not because they can power level themselves to a stat advantage over 80% of the population.

 

What kills PVP in games is when you create large advantages for one side or the other. This typically happens as a result of poor gear progression design that only rewards the upper quadrant of the bell curve.

 

Now try to process what you have just been told. I know it is a lot to take in, but this one small thing is why so many people have been eager for another game to play for a couple of years now. This is a step in the right direction. It isn't perfect... but competitive anything centers around the ideals of fair play to the overwhelming majority.

[ohnam]

What the hell is "true skill"? That's a made up phrase.

 

If you want to get down to it skill is a very subjective and generic word. There is "skill" in leveling, "skill" in gearing, "skill" in gear choices, "skill" in abilities choices, "skill" in strategy, "skill" in that ability to use your spells/abilities, "skill" in knowing the opponents spells/abilities, "skill" in knowing when who used what, etc. etc.

 

So in theory there is a lot of different "skills" involved in this game. What specific "Skill" are you referring to?

 

The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

[Yutaa]

I ask you again why do I have to do it for pve? You sound like you are ok for pve to be gated but for pvp, how dare you? Same concept, its gated.

 

I don't care about PVE.

May be, just may be, they found that they can't keep players in PVE without gear progression. May be gear progresson is the only way to keep players in PVE for long time...

May be PVE is sooo boring that without this extra carrot ppl with just quit.

May be while its fun to win WZ again and again its just not that fun to beat the same boss again and again without gear progression.

 

No idea and I don't care. But I can see that the same approach didn't work for PVP. PVP and PVE are two completely different aspects of the game, so they should be addressed in different ways.

Just to be clear, PVP is not better. They just different.

 

Now back to my question - why I need to spend 200+ hours for something I don't like just to be able to play with my friends?

[Delavager]

What? We're not talking about low level PvP. We're talking about PvP at 50, in a competitive environment. It doesn't get progressively harder. There's no enrage timers to meet so the opponent doesn't one shot you. You don't need to worry about not standing some place, or having to stand in a specific area. You worry about your skill, and the skill of your opponent. When gear comes into play, it's a crutch, and is not competitive.

 

Did you fail to read the 2nd half of my comment?

 

Also "harder" isn't the same as PvE. Enrage timer isn't even a mechanic that is relevant to the discussion.

 

As you grow in "skill" so does your opponents. People get better at the warzones and using their characters everyday, thus PvP is getting harder.

 

Also as players are GEARING they are getting "harder" to beat, thus PvP is getting HARDER at level 50.

 

Open up your mind and stop thinking so simply.

[TetraCleric]

The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

 

facepalm

[ohnam]

Progressive raiding is the only viable model for PVE in any game.

 

Player versus Player is not limited by the same intrinsic difficulties that PVE is.

 

Every PVP match or duel or whatever is dynamic. The competition is what people are playing for, not the ability to kill a stronger meaner dragon. The only reason to get better gear in PVP is to stay competitive with your opponents. Gear isn't required in pvp because the players you have to kill are not like the next tier's raid boss with a 10-20% scaling of health and damage output. This is why they are different.

 

Having gear progression is fine as long as it is reasonably attainable to the majority of the playing population, but really it isn't necessary at all to most people that truly enjoy pvp for the fun of it and not because they can power level themselves to a stat advantage over 80% of the population.

 

What kills PVP in games is when you create large advantages for one side or the other. This typically happens as a result of poor gear progression design that only rewards the upper quadrant of the bell curve.

 

Now try to process what you have just been told. I know it is a lot to take in, but this one small thing is why so many people have been eager for another game to play for a couple of years now. This is a step in the right direction. It isn't perfect... but competitive anything centers around the ideals of fair play to the overwhelming majority.

 

I don't care if its a huge boost. Even if its .5% percent chance to hit I would work for because its a mmo and mmo are about building your toon.

[Laokoon]

But you are delusional also if you believe mmo's will be about true skills when these games can never be balanced unless their is only one class.

 

But that is exactly what the previous point that I made and you responded to was about. Every class does not need to be the same, we need a rock/paper/scissor situation, only much more complex. One class beats another class beats another class beats another class ect. Different combinations of classes beat other different combinations. There IS a way to balance the classes in their abilities to help the team win and accomplish the goals, it is just a very difficult thing to do. That is when things are constantly nerfed/buffed for PvP use, to try to make the playing field level. No one class should ever be able to solo take on an entire enemy team of diverse abilities and skills equal to that of the one class. That one class should be curb-stomped.

 

Throwing gear into the mix is just for people who want to be more power than others, not more skilled than others. Skill speaks for itself. Michael Jordan doesn't need a jetpack to own me 1v1 in Basketball, he is so much more skilled than I am that even if we were the same height, strength, age, and weight he would still beat me 100 to 0.

 

And at the end of the day when everyone that you play against all have the best gear in the game? What is the competition at that point if not a competition of skill?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

[TetraCleric]

Did you fail to read the 2nd half of my comment?

 

Also "harder" isn't the same as PvE. Enrage timer isn't even a mechanic that is relevant to the discussion.

 

As you grow in "skill" so does your opponents. People get better at the warzones and using their characters everyday, thus PvP is getting harder.

 

Also as players are GEARING they are getting "harder" to beat, thus PvP is getting HARDER at level 50.

 

Open up your mind and stop thinking so simply.

 

Honestly, I think you're thinking too complex.

 

duncan explained what I tried to convey in less words.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Bovinity]

I don't even know how to approach this anymore. It sounds like some people want to PvP but have no interest at all in competition, they just want to load up ProgressQuest and compare run-times to see who wins.