So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Darth_Sookie]

If you're just creating a higher bracket for people with this special gear to play against other people with this special gear, then what is the point of the special gear? Why wouldn't a bracket with the rating requirement be sufficient, (if you're really OK with shrinking the pool of players you have to play with)?

 

If the math advantage/disadvantage is a wash anyway, then why is cosmetic gear not a sufficient reward?

 

As i've said many times. It's ANOTHER added incentive to compete. Just as price money, medals and fame are incentives to athletes. It's frankly more fun to be able to work towards difficult to get gear. This is an mmorpg after all.

 

You just keep coming up with new questions in response to my answers without providing any of your own.

 

So i'll ask again. Why are you so afraid of having to compete with others for rating to acquire rating locked gear?

[BDutch]

As i've said many times. It's ANOTHER added incentive to compete. Just as price money, medals and fame are incentives to athletes. It's frankly more fun to be able to work towards difficult to get gear. This is an mmorpg after all.

 

You just keep coming up with new questions in response to my answers without providing any of your own.

 

So i'll ask again. Why are you so afraid of having to compete with others for rating to acquire rating locked gear?

 

I think you're the one who's dodging the question. If you're only playing against other elite people with the same gear then gear is not an advantage. The only reason you would need gear from this bracket to have better math would be to use it against people in a different bracket.

 

Out of all the possibilities for rewards, the only one you're concerned about is the type that gives you an additional advantage over the people you should need the least advantage to win against.

[Gwal]

We're not the ones flooding the forums with nerf and "champion gear is too hard to get" posts.

You have been crying since release about facing premades and getting rolled in PvP.

 

Atleast stick to the truth.

 

Never have I complained about premades in my life.

 

I've never complained about champion gear being hard to get.

 

I think the shear magnitude of effect the gear has in this game is crap and it's fun watching wow kiddies defend it. And call themselves things like "hardcore" the time I spend with the other half instead of gear grinding is much more hardcore.

[AstralProjection]

Very nice adds to the cesspool, Astral. Calling people laughable, sending them after phat lewts, telling them to leave and what to play makes for a very "constructive" post. Yes, the force is strong with you as you hold the undeniable truth. Sorry for the pointing but as you hate gear progression so I hate hypocrisy.

 

Thank you : )

 

I never said I hated progression. I've taken part in plenty of it. But when matching person versus person, is it necessary? Nope, not one bit.

 

There was some intentional hypocrisy there, because it is oh, so sweet to see the situation turned around on people who have been bashing casual players all this time.

 

If you had read the posts in this thread, you'd know there's no changing the minds of the folks in here. This discussion has been going on for some time with a handful of people clutching on to the claim that everyone else is lazy, lacking skill, or wants everything handed to them.

 

I've never asked for anything handed to me. If it makes me a hypocrite for telling elitists to leave because it will make a better community I'm fine with that.

 

There's a whole genre within this genre of Korean style grind based games if that's what you want. It seems like most people don't. For the happiness of both parties, I suggested they find a different game.

 

I called people laughable for throwing one-line expressions of scorn out at the casual playerbase, and claiming they're "Hardcore", and yet afraid of an even playing field. I didn't say everyone in here was one of those people. But, it is pretty funny to be calling yourself a "real", "hardcore" PVPer, and yet be so ideologically averse to having less starting advantage over your enemy. To you that screams hypocrisy, because you want to spin it that way. To me, that screams positive, because I'm demonstrating how little anyone cares about that elitist attitude, and trying to chase off that toxic element in the community. I guess that shows the power of opinion-I was accusing the people that say they're hardcore of being hypocrites, which in turn makes me one to you.

 

Progression is a part of MMORPG's, that's true. But having the progression be stat improvements garnered based on playtime has never made a community better, especially when that stat improvement is tied to player-versus-player combat.

Edited March 7, 2012 by AstralProjection

[Gwal]

Astral, can you stop trying to derail this thread and join in the trolling?

[Helig]

As i've said many times. It's ANOTHER added incentive to compete. Just as price money, medals and fame are incentives to athletes. It's frankly more fun to be able to work towards difficult to get gear. This is an mmorpg after all.

 

You just keep coming up with new questions in response to my answers without providing any of your own.

 

So i'll ask again. Why are you so afraid of having to compete with others for rating to acquire rating locked gear?

 

Why more powerful gear must be the reward? If anything, it makes the game a nightmare to balance, because all classes have different scaling curves.

 

Classic example - WoW TBC. Season 1 was the burst DPS season - even at the end, when people got their hands on Resilience. Seasons 2-3 - healer\SL-SL 'lock season, because healing and overtime damage grew too powerful with Resilience. And it wasn't about the balance specifics of a particular game. Same dynamics exist in ToR.

 

For example, a low-end Guardian is vastly inferior, compared to most other classes. Once I got my hands on my PvP+raid gear mix, the gap between me and equally-geared players of other classes virtually disappeared.

 

If anything, rated rewards must be honorary e-peen style rewards, like unique orange PvP gear (with 1.2 in mind - armoring transfers and stuff), or access to "pvp vip lounge", or the ability to buy mods and ehnancements separate from gear (convenience- not a real advantage).

Edited March 7, 2012 by Helig

[AstralProjection]

Astral, can you stop trying to derail this thread and join in the trolling?

 

Sorry, my bad! Troll away!

[DarkDruidSS]

Talk about this kind of changes when you actually leveled one of your chars over 50.

Your opinion on this matter is equal to 0 since you didnt even reach 50 to see what kind of pvp grinding there is.

 

Because I haven't seen this kind of gear progression in Rift? WoW? Warhammer? Aion? Oh, Right... Yea, clearly I have to have a 50 in SWTOR to know what the hell is going on. Was that your only reason to post?

[Almghty_gir]

imagine if this year in the olympic games, they gave the winner of the 100 meter sprint some special spring shoes, he earned them, for winning.

 

but at the next olympics because the other runners didn't earn them by winning, they're now at a disadvantage to him, with his new special shoes.

 

it would destroy everything the olympics stand for. just like it destroys pvp competition.

[Darth_Sookie]

I think you're the one who's dodging the question. If you're only playing against other elite people with the same gear then gear is not an advantage. The only reason you would need gear from this bracket to have better math would be to use it against people in a different bracket.

 

Out of all the possibilities for rewards, the only one you're concerned about is the type that gives you an additional advantage over the people you should need the least advantage to win against.

 

Again you're dodging the question.

 

I've answered as plain as i can multiple times. The whole game is build upon advancing from level 1-50 and packing on better gear and numbers. I would like to participate in the core of the game doing what i like the most which is PvP while still enjoying character progression.

Everyone has a chance to acquire rated gear if they have the will and skill.

 

It's a very casual outlook to always assume that the better players are always out to "get you" and make life miserable for the bad players. I would probably never que a non rated warzone if i didn't have to.

 

All this has almost made me wish that for one day we could all PvP with the exact same gear, exact same comp with the exact same talent point spreads. Just so we could totally OBLITERATE the casuals and prove ones and for all that it won't matter AT ALL how equal the game is, the strong will still crush the weak.

You think it's an accident that our premades still win even though we are carrying two fresh level 50s? Or run with terrible comps?

 

In the end though it would still be someting like like playing league of legends only you'd always be stuck with your same hero. Boring.

[Gwal]

Again you're dodging the question.

 

I've answered as plain as i can multiple times. The whole game is build upon advancing from level 1-50 and packing on better gear and numbers. I would like to participate in the core of the game doing what i like the most which is PvP while still enjoying character progression.

Everyone has a chance to acquire rated gear if they have the will and skill.

 

It's a very casual outlook to always assume that the better players are always out to "get you" and make life miserable for the bad players. I would probably never que a non rated warzone if i didn't have to.

 

All this has almost made me wish that for one day we could all PvP with the exact same gear, exact same comp with the exact same talent point spreads. Just so we could totally OBLITERATE the casuals and prove ones and for all that it won't matter AT ALL how equal the game is, the strong will still crush the weak.

You think it's an accident that our premades still win even though we are carrying two fresh level 50s? Or run with terrible comps?

 

In the end though it would still be someting like like playing league of legends only you'd always be stuck with your same hero. Boring.

 

Want to make that happen?

You have a Guild Wars account?

 

We can make this happen!

[Darth_Sookie]

imagine if this year in the olympic games, they gave the winner of the 100 meter sprint some special spring shoes, he earned them, for winning.

 

but at the next olympics because the other runners didn't earn them by winning, they're now at a disadvantage to him, with his new special shoes.

 

it would destroy everything the olympics stand for. just like it destroys pvp competition.

 

No, it would be more like the top 500 sprinters would be given slightly better running shoes. The 501:th runner up would be at a disadvantage, sure. But if he can't even break in to the top 500 despite a very small disadvantage, he probably doesn't belong in the Olympics in the first place. To draw more from real life, you think the 500th best sprinter in the world has access to the same trainers, doctors, physical therapists, training camps etc that Husain Bolt has? Life is not fair and equal. Sometimes you just got to want to win more than the guy next to you,.

 

Taking examples to the extreme serves nobody. Just makes it look like you don't understand what the grownups are talking about.

[Bofromkentwood]

I have no problem with solo queue people getting gear so long as it takes them time to get it. It also helps the team game because it will be easier to find geared teammates to recruit.

 

But people that sat around at the beginning in the Ilum Valor Farms deserve it quickly? Most BMs got their BM title in a very short time before Ilum got hotfixed. Saying that a solo queue person doesn't deserve the gear as quickly as you because you are on a "team" is crazy. There are players that choose to PvP that are not in hardcore PvP guilds. And many times they know their toon better than many of the hardcore guys, as the hardcore guys just fast leveled to 50, then went to Ilum to farm valor.

 

Now BW is making the game not so much of a grind, so the people that got the BM stuff before Ilum was fixed are complaining? Wow...this is just plain nuts.

[Darth_Sookie]

But people that sat around at the beginning in the Ilum Valor Farms deserve it quickly? Most BMs got their BM title in a very short time before Ilum got hotfixed.

 

That is an outright LIE. I knew every signle person close to BM or above BM before that fateful patch and most of them got only a couple of levels worth of valor if they were there the minute the server opened. Hardly game breaking compared to the 3k valor a game we get now.

[Gwal]

That is an outright LIE. I knew every signle person close to BM or above BM before that fateful patch and most of them got only a couple of levels worth of valor if they were there the minute the server opened. Hardly game breaking compared to the 3k valor a game we get now.

 

Lol. You don't know me.

[Nicain]

Why more powerful gear must be the reward? If anything, it makes the game a nightmare to balance, because all classes have different scaling curves.

 

Classic example - WoW TBC. Season 1 was the burst DPS season - even at the end, when people got their hands on Resilience. Seasons 2-3 - healer\SL-SL 'lock season, because healing and overtime damage grew too powerful with Resilience. And it wasn't about the balance specifics of a particular game. Same dynamics exist in ToR.

 

For example, a low-end Guardian is vastly inferior, compared to most other classes. Once I got my hands on my PvP+raid gear mix, the gap between me and equally-geared players of other classes virtually disappeared.

 

If anything, rated rewards must be honorary e-peen style rewards, like unique orange PvP gear (with 1.2 in mind - armoring transfers and stuff), or access to "pvp vip lounge", or the ability to buy mods and ehnancements separate from gear (convenience- not a real advantage).

 

 

Balance isn't making all things equal, it's IF all things are equal there is balance. The gear curve is in addition to that. It's another level of the game, but you don't want to get your gear you want it given to you.

 

To many retarded console players are trying to get into MMO's, and when they get rolled because they don't understand how it works they want all these changes.

 

Sad really.

[Helig]

Balance isn't making all things equal, it's IF all things are equal there is balance. The gear curve is in addition to that. It's another level of the game, but you don't want to get your gear you want it given to you.

 

To many retarded console players are trying to get into MMO's, and when they get rolled because they don't understand how it works they want all these changes.

 

Sad really.

 

I "want" nothing. I already have a BiS (or close to BiS)-geared\modded PvP Guardian. Marauder, Shadow and Sniper coming up, gear-wise.

 

Gear curve is not "another level of the game". It's a carrot-on-a-stick crutch that does more harm than good (namely, makes PvP unfriendly for endgame entry-level PvPers, harms the community, makes it more difficult for developers to balance classes).

 

Now, if you said "gear customization is another level of game", then I'd completely, wholeheartedly agree. Give rated players access to a broader variety of mods to fine-tune their class to that magical 0.1%. It's definitely a good thing, because a lot of "casual" (term used loosely) players don't even get into the whole modding system, and it's more of a tool for competitive players.

[JaddynnStarr]

Are you serious?

 

My first reaction would be: "wow, what a tool". Someone's compensating!

 

 

 

 

IRONY:

 

Comparing a discussion of online gaming parameters to political ideologies.

 

AND THEN SAYING "IT'S JUST A GAME".

 

 

 

 

Not that BiOWare necessarily gives a ****, but I figure if enough players ***** about it, it'll save me some useless grinding time in a later patch.

 

this is sooo funny... cuz you just dont get it... you call people posers for only wanting gear and you call people cool for wanting only to play with skill and for the spirit of the game... my point is now double proved... why cant you see that people play for 2 reasons... to have fun and be recognized... the fact you drag real life into this proves you are one of those posers you so sanctimoniously call other people... As for compensating... whos the one on a forum having a bigger epeen contest here? oh thats right... YOU.... my comment you quoted was just an explanation to show you its in our nature as human beings to seek recognition and praise from others... everything we do is to better ourselves and our life status... As for your second statement, there is no IRONY in it at all, the guy was just pointing out how us GAMERS were acting like its REAL LIFE in these forums, and weneed to chill cuz its ONLY A GAME...

[BDutch]

Again you're dodging the question.

 

Alright, I'll try to give as concise an answer as possible to your question if you'll do me the same favor.

 

So i'll ask again. Why are you so afraid of having to compete with others for rating to acquire rating locked gear?

 

My definition of competition is pitting equally matched opponents against each other. Rating is required to set that up, gear is not. So I believe that, while acquiring uber gear via PvP may be fun, it can only serve to hinder a truly competitive rated bracket/environment.

 

I hope that answers why I personally dislike the idea of competing for rating locked gear.

 

My question is: If the measure of your gear's worth is determined by comparing it to your opponents gear, then how are upgrades not merely cosmetic if you only plan on playing against equally geared players, (as you would in a properly matched rated bracket)?

[Ezzem]

everyone being equal, is good if the game is a super competetive esport which its not, and ranked warzones wont change that, unless theres gonna be alot of tournaments etc etc.

 

People here say do pvp for the fame and glory, what fame and glory? colored gear? dont kid yourself, its not going to work.

 

Theres nothing that acknowledges you for your skills, other than your title/color on your gear, thats not enough for most "hardcore" pvp'ers

[DarkDruidSS]

Gear grinds for PvP took a major shift in the EQ2/WoW era. Prior to that point gear meant a lot less than skill and knowing your class. Once PvE-ers starting getting their epic lewts from raids then PvPers felt they were at a disadvantage because those PvE-ers would blow them up with their new gear. So then PvPers demanded their own set of gear. Which is when both EQ2 and WoW started introducing PvP specific gear.

 

That is how PvP got to the point it is at today. It didn't start that way, so it doesn't neccessarily mean it has to be that way. Gear grinds for PvP was all started by the PvE-ers... I blame them for ruining my PvP... but that is a different subject.

 

Relying on gear to be competitive isn't the way PvP should be for any truly competitve player. Game competitions have always been about fairness and equal ground with skill/team work providing the edge to the players who had it... not gear.

 

Now any person that grinds up their full set of PvP gear can demolish most competent players with gear alone.. you get a geared up and skilled player then it's a completely different story. It's not balanced at that point and it's not very competitive. Ranked matches are going to be a bandaid solution to the problem with PvP gear grinds. Until then everyone has to suck it up and grind out the gear to get on the equal playing field.

 

Anyway, I guess my whole point is I can dislike the current state of MMOs, but I don't see it changing any time soon. Every new raid set that comes out the PvPers are going to want a similar PvP tier.. the gear gap will always be there. It's highly doubtful that BioWare will change the current state of the game to completely take away the gear grind and the advantage it brings.

[EternalFinality]

Of course it is. How long did you play those multiplayer games for? Do they even still have servers up?

 

I don't want to discredit any game you've played, or anything like that, but in the gaming world, 7 years is a long time.

 

Mario Brothers didn't need a "server." One person got the controls on the left side of the keyboard, and the other person got the right.

 

Darth_Sookie and all her shill friends QQ are nothing but fake PvPers, afflicted with a PvE grind fantasy mentality; a diseased mind brought on by too many hours spent with EQ/WoW.

 

Not once, in any of your QQ threads and QQ posts Darth, have I heard you talk about wanting actual competitive, skill based PvP.

 

You talk about ranked warzones, but all I hear is "progression", "incentives", and "gear."

 

When are we going to actually talk about the PvP? You know, the competitive battles; the challenging fights against other skilled players?

 

Why is it always about shiny loot, titles, and other carrots-on-sticks?

 

IMHO, the diseased mind of PvEers and their obsession with progression and gear, has carried over to and ruined competitive PvP in MMOs.

 

It's no longer about the fight. It's 'what do I get afterwards?' that only seems to matter.

 

That's right. And worse, they want to get stuff even if they lose. "How can I progress otherwise!?" they wail.

 

When I lose a match in Counterstrike I don't get anything except maybe the other players taunting me. Oddly, I don't get anything even if I win!

 

The majority in America also voted George W Bush for president. Love your lline of thought though. "My arguments are thin and hollow yet people agree with me, ergo i am right".

 

Tell me and i wrong in what i said about how the bracket works and is the other guy right? WELL?

 

Actually, the majority voted for Al Gore.....remember?

[Gwal]

Balance isn't making all things equal, it's IF all things are equal there is balance. The gear curve is in addition to that. It's another level of the game, but you don't want to get your gear you want it given to you.

 

To many retarded console players are trying to get into MMO's, and when they get rolled because they don't understand how it works they want all these changes.

 

Sad really.

 

Nah WoW kiddies are the curse not console gamers.

 

PvP sucks in this game simply because without the gear grind there is no motivating factor. No server pride, no sense of conflict etc.

 

The people that love these gear grinds are the new kids. Us old schoolers are used to exp loss on death in pvp being looted on death in pvp. The lolgear grind is carebear ****. Would you want BM gear if I could loot it off you?

[Darth_Sookie]

 

 

That's right. And worse, they want to get stuff even if they lose. "How can I progress otherwise!?" they wail.

 

 

Actually, the majority voted for Al Gore.....remember?

 

WHAT? That is the complete opposite of what i want. I'd be extatic if you would only make progress by actually winning.

 

You must be confused.

[JakeOfFury]

PvP sucks in this game simply because without the gear grind there is no motivating factor. No server pride, no sense of conflict etc.

 

I agree with this.

 

Coming from SWG, which was admittedly an abysmal game in most respects, I really miss the ability to change sides *and* interact with people on the opposite side who weren't flagged.

 

I think it is utterly stupid that we can't send whispers to players on the opposing faction. I think it is utterly stupid that as a sniper I can't ever help out republic players.

 

In SWG you got this really great pvp community on each server where players would switch sides based on politics and friendships, people would congregate in the major cities and duel and taunt each other or just have massive battles all the time, guilds would raid each other's built up towns, etc.

 

This game is so different -- there are no guild headquarters to raid, I can't talk to rebels except in general chat, I can't switch sides to fight against the a-holes I don't like in my own faction...

 

I enjoy the systems of this game but I really think they are missing the ball by enforcing this strange notion of what pvp should be in an MMO rather than just letting players do what they naturally want to do -- act like social human beings.