Why did Swtor turn into GW2?

[DarkDruidSS]

You are still assuming and pulling stuff out of your know where. What makes you think that GW2 would be dead in 6 months? did you even manage to check the amount of content it is releasing with? the 3 side PVP and 1500 scalable dynamic events has lot more replay ability than WOW and SWTOR combined at release.

 

Also, i will just go with existing example of GW, it was released in 2005, 7 years later it has released 3 separate expansions and one small booster pack. Even if it cost me around 200 bucks to get it all and i played it for 7 years it is still hell lot of cheaper than paying sub for WOW for 7 years and purchasing all the expansions.

 

Also comparison with SWTOR in first 4 to 6 months is pointless because we are talking about value of money in long run. And GW is perfect example that how it is hell lot cheaper to play a B2P MMO compared to a P2P model especially if you play for a very long time.

 

Not everyone is like you and still playing a 7 year old game. People still play DAoC and Everquest, but do people bring that up in agruments? NO, not unless they are trying to go to some extreme to prove a point. So yea GW has a small community... once again who cares? No games ever trully dies unless the servers are shutdown supporting it. GW hasn't been relevant for 5 years. The only reason it is relevant now is because GW2 is coming out.

 

Seriously think about how long you had to stretch out your timeline to even make your arguement. 5 years.. 7 years. Not even that many people playing WoW for 5 years straight. You are talking about a minority of the overall game population.

Edited April 5, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[KhealThar]

GW2 is free, let me remind you, free after you buy it, it wont have the content any other mmo has, what you see when it ships is what you get for quite awhile, wow has been losing subs for over a year now, anything decent and new will take away from that...

 

So enjoy your GW cause you do get what you pay for and thats 60 bucks of fun..

 

Do you not understand how free games work? This isn't like a free to play MMO that you download to try out one weekend because it failed as a sub based MMO, this is an active model that will probably be the future of MMOs.

 

You can easily make tons of money off weapon skins, armor skins, companion characters etc etc

 

They are able to release FREE content updates with micro transactions, and they will regularly release expansions like they did with GW1.

 

You should probably research about something before you talk about it based on it having no subscription, GW2 is a very innovative MMO that I will definitely be trying out.

 

 

If they waited 4 months... which by most market standards would be about the limit a community can tolerate before they abandon a game... hell look at these forums with people saying BW isn't releasing enough and they have a full game update 4 months after release (HAHA funny that 3-4 month timeline holds true).... SO

 

That's funny, the ICC patch from WoW lasted an entire year yet people still played.

 

The reason people are leaving SWTOR is because the end game is exactly like WoW except WoW does it better.

 

You don't need to release content so quickly if your content is actually good. Something WoW and SWTOR lack.

Edited April 5, 2012 by KhealThar

[NukeMom]

GW2 is free, let me remind you, free after you buy it, it wont have the content any other mmo has

 

Because F2P games don't make any money, right? Heh, you're living in the last decade.

 

Anyway, threads like this are why swtor PvP isn't any fun at all. There's no fun in the system at all, it's just treadmilling for gear. All the gear monkeys love it because it gives them something to thump their chest over, but the real PvPers just shrug and look elsewhere for their competition.

[Gorrdan]

Not everyone is like you and still playing a 7 year old game. People still play DAoC and Everquest, but do people bring that up in agruments? NO, not unless they are trying to go to some extreme to prove a point. So yea GW has a small community... once again who cares? No games ever trully dies unless the servers are shutdown supporting it. GW hasn't been relevant for 5 years. The only reason it is relevant now is because GW2 is coming out.

 

Seriously think about how long you had to stretch out your timeline to even make your arguement. 5 years.. 7 years. Not even that many people playing WoW for 5 years straight. You are talking about a minority of the overall game population.

 

yes people do play old games for long time and if a game is especially B2P it just makes it easier because i can go back and check it whenever i like. It is a lot better option then 'if you want to check our game again please pay 15 buck' barrier. Also, what has small size of community got anything to do with discussing the payment model? please don't reply with strawman.

 

And yes amount of years make a lot of sense when you compare B2P with P2P model because in long run it is still very cheap. Also who is in minority or not, i would like to see your data to back it up. Got any proof that only minority of players stick to a MMO for a long time?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Gorrdan

[TUXs]

This is the dumbest argument.

There is no reason you can not have gear progression and have it be moderate.

It's amazing that this thread and topic goes on and on and no one mentions this.

I agree! Moderate is all that's needed. The casuals won't get blown away by not having the 25% boosts and the hardcore players will do everything they need to do for that ONE extra Power point. Moderate boosts are acceptable.

[DarkDruidSS]

yes people do play old games for long time and if a game is especially B2P it just makes it easier because i can go back and check it whenever i like. It is a lot better option then 'if you want to check our game again please pay 15 buck' barrier. Also, what has small size of community got anything to do with discussing the payment model? please don't reply with strawman.

 

And yes amount of years make a lot of sense when you compare B2P with P2P model because in long run it is still very cheap. Also who is in minority or not, i would like to see your data to back it up. Got any proof that only minority of players stick to a MMO for a long time?

 

Heh, ok. We can settle this with a "I WIN" now.

 

So now I have to prove what everyone knows is true and the only reason you are dismissing it is because YOU know it is true too and you know it's hard to prove because developers don't release their numbers on failing products.

 

I'm done with this. GW2 looks fancy, but I'm not getting it. I would rather get the Dominus MMO which is like a DAoC Scifi clone than get GW2.

[Gorrdan]

Heh, ok. We can settle this with a "I WIN" now.

 

So now I have to prove what everyone knows is true and the only reason you are dismissing it is because YOU know it is true too and you know it's hard to prove because developers don't release their numbers on failing products.

 

I'm done with this. GW2 looks fancy, but I'm not getting it. I would rather get the Dominus MMO which is like a DAoC Scifi clone than get GW2.

 

Nowhere i claimed i know the truth. I am simply talking about what game is cheaper in long run B2P or P2P. Everything else is irrelevant to this discussion.

[TUXs]

I'm done with this. GW2 looks fancy, but I'm not getting it. I would rather get the Dominus MMO which is like a DAoC Scifi clone than get GW2.

 

Ah! So...is Dominus the new GW2 now that GW2 isn't what people thought it was going to be?

[teambff]

yeah, good!

 

the main people outraged over this are the same people who play with premades, these same people who simply cannot live without having every single possible advantage they can obtain just so they can continue the veil of supremacy and the feeling as if they're somehow "better than" when in reality and logically they are on the same level as every other "pack mob mentality".

 

what's the matter? afraid your premades will end up going against a group that's actually geared for a change and you won't be able to continue the facade.

 

anything that goes against these players i can't deny, makes me giggle on the inside a leeetle bit.

 

i'm half joking/taunting. i don't care enough to get all raged and hold some grudge against these players, etc. i just pvp to have fun and mess around for the most part even though they are the birthday party crashers and the sun on a rainy day. (for reference, the sun is bad in that analogy)

Edited April 5, 2012 by teambff

[Gorrdan]

yeah, good!

 

the main people outraged over this are the same people who play with premades, these same people who simply cannot live without having every single possible advantage they can obtain just so they can continue the veil of supremacy and the feeling as if they're somehow "better than" when in reality and logically they are on the same level as every other "pack mob mentality".

 

what's the matter? afraid your premades will end up going against a group that's actually geared for a change and you won't be able to continue the facade.

 

anything that goes against these players i can't deny, makes me giggle on the inside a leeetle bit.

 

i'm half joking/taunting. i don't care enough to get all raged and hold some grudge against these players, etc. i just pvp to have fun and mess around for the most part even though they are the birthday party crashers and the sun on a rainy day. (for reference, the sun is bad in that analogy)

 

I agree with your sentiment. This whole tier gear based PVP is such an archaic concept. I know things won't change over night but i am glad BW is at least trying to bridge the gap and trying to make PVP more skill based than gear based.

 

People who believe that they have to 'work' in a video game are obviously going to be pissed about it and call new generation of players having entitlement issues. Even though this entitlement generation would rather actually work hard at real life jobs which means a lot more than 'working...err playing' in a video game.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Gorrdan

[Silwyth]

Ah! So...is Dominus the new GW2 now that GW2 isn't what people thought it was going to be?

 

Quoted for Excellence. Its been this same nonsense ever since WoW came out. People latch on to whatever MMO is coming out next, and spend months hyping it up to be some crazy revolutionary step in gaming. Sorry guys. It just isn't going to happen.

[DarkDruidSS]

Ah! So...is Dominus the new GW2 now that GW2 isn't what people thought it was going to be?

 

I don't know. I am loosely following Dominus. The crafting looks really interesting with how it interacts with the economy and player base. Basically all gear has durability and the only way to replace it is to get new gear.. so crafters will make the best gear which players will have to buy. Then to get the mats you pretty much have to own areas that are material rich with your faction to get them so it drives the PvPers to fight for their crafters. They want to allow people to place bounties on others and then have a bounty system for rewards. There was talk about having gambling in the game by betting on arena type matchs. I try to keep up with it like once a month.

 

I think it will be worth trying though. Might wait till after release to see player reactions.

[teambff]

I agree with your sentiment. This whole tier gear based PVP is such an archaic concept. I know things won't change over night but i am glad BW is at least trying to bridge the gap and trying to make PVP more skill based than gear based.

 

People who believe that they have to 'work' in a video game are obviously going to be pissed about it and call new generation of players having entitlement issues. Even though this entitlement generation would rather actually work hard at real life jobs which means a lot more than 'working...err playing' in a video game.

 

exactly! i'd prefer they take gear out of the equation like in an fps game.

people who always talk about skill this and skill that well then let's take all the gear and advantages out and let it be all about skill/intelligence and fair play.

 

i'm all for continuing to close the gear gap and have more focus on the gameplay aspect rather than who outgears who and what advantages does player (a) have over player (b).

Edited April 5, 2012 by teambff

[Zocat]

Ah! So...is Dominus the new GW2 now that GW2 isn't what people thought it was going to be?

 

But Dominus is using the Hero Engine, just like SWTOR.

We need another one!!

[DarkDruidSS]

But Dominus is using the Hero Engine, just like SWTOR.

We need another one!!

 

That's true, but if they can release a game with the type of RvR that they are talking about then BioWare won't have an excuse to get their crap together on Ilum and open world content. So at the very least if Dominus is successful then maybe BW can learn from it and adapt it into the game.

[Ozzone]

I have been playing GW2 for 5 years now and including all of its expansions it is still cheaper compared to say 5 years of WOW.

 

You have been playing GW2 for 5 years? I hope that's a typo.

[Ashraman]

All gear worthless since its all freebie come 1.2...Who wants to pay a monthly sub for no progression just welfare for all? PvP just lost its carrot on a stick thanks for killing this game faster than Rift BW....

 

The OP grossly exaggerates the effect of the PvP gear changes coming in SWTOR Update 1.2. Nothing in the update will "kill" SWTOR. The new rated gear will not be a "freebie"; it will still require a time investment, as each piece requires not only rated war zone tokens, but also the corresponding Battlemaster piece as a trade-in.

 

Unfortunately, people have a tendency to prefer to speak in absolutes. It's easier to do that. Consideration of shades of grey and complexity is confusing and requires the application of critical thinking skills. It's also easier to resort to personal attacks rather than calmly and politely attempting to refute a person whose belief is different than your own with the dispassionate application of logic and facts. As soon as one side resorts to ad hominem personal attacks, the rational debate ends.

 

Notwithstanding my criticisms of the original post and its exaggerations, I agree with the basic sentiment expressed in it to the following extent: I believe it's a mistake to move away from a progression-based system in SWTOR's PvP. Progression is the key to retaining subscribers in a subscription-based MMO like SWTOR. Guild Wars is not a subscription-based MMO, subscriber retention is not a concern, and therefore character progression is not a significant feature of GW's PvP system. It is akin to the Battlefield series in this respect.

 

I played the original Guild Wars and had a blast. For a few months. Then I moved on to the next PvP-based MMO, probably a Battlefield series title. Without tangible incentives and the ability to advance my character in significant terms over time, I ultimately tire of the "same old same old". Although most people don't like to admit this, there is a point past which your skill simply does not improve further in a video game. If my skill level has hit a plateau, and there is no way to further tangibly improve my character, why not move on to something new?

 

Like it or not, WoW is the most commercially successful subscriber-based MMO to date. And WoW has featured PvP gear progression since the implementation of the PvP system in WoW. Combine this with the fact that WoW's Battlegrounds are very similar to SWTOR's War Zones, and the underlying class based mechanics are similar to the extent of employing the same basic archetypes, and we may reasonably conclude that WoW's PvP incentive system is a better model for SWTOR's PvP inventive system than GW's.

 

I believe each tier of ranked WZ gear in SWTOR should provide a benefit over the prior rank, albeit a small one. Minor cosmetic differences are not a sufficient reward to keep me around over time. This model has proven successful in WoW for years. The highest ranked Arena players tend to retain that ranking season after season. Gear differences are unimportant as all competitive players will ultimately have the same quality gear. That these same people continue to dominate the rankings indicates that it is skill, and not gear or time invested, that is the key differentiating factor.

 

I play WZ's daily on a PvP server. Most of the people playing regularly are all Battlemasters. There's not much of a gear difference between one player and the next, on average. The fact these people continue to play day after day demonstrates that they aren't playing to enjoy "curb stomping scrubs" who have no PvP gear. Rather, the reason they SAY they continue to play is because they are seeking those last few pieces of BM gear, etc. Tangible rewards achieved only after a significant time investment are more meaningful than those handed out immediately. I believe that many of the regular WZ participants I see on my server would stop playing after gear advancement opportunities ceased; I know many already have in my guild for this reason (and that's a PvP-centric guild with over 300 members currently).

 

The same arguments fielded in favor of dismantling a progression based system in PvP can be leveled against a progression based system in PvE.

 

Q: Why not remove the level-based system altogether, give all players access to all skills and all gear from the moment they start playing, and thereby make all PvE raids succeed or fail based purely on the organization of the raid group and skill of its individual members?

 

A: Because this is an awful model for a subscription-based MMO. Well-organized guilds will complete all PvE content in days and move on to the next game.

 

How is getting trounced by an AI NPC due to sub-optimal gear more frustrating and "game breaking" than being beaten by a player with better gear? It seems a problem with some individual egos rather than game mechanics.

 

Continued tangible character progression opportunities are critical to the long-term retention of subscribers in an MMO. Remove that carrot and you will make some people happy in the short-term, but in the long term, few people will continue paying to play an MMO in which their character can no longer advance in power in meaningful ways.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ashraman

[xxIncubixx]

Diablo 3 won't compete with any MMO ever lmao

 

 

WoW is actually going to be in trouble with GW2, it's the only MMO in the last 5 years that has actually tested end game content, offered a different leveling experience than quests and actually separates pve and pvp so they can balance both.

 

They plan on making it an e-sport, allow you to dodge spells, allow you to COMBINE spells with different classes to make more powerful ones (ie: Elementalist summoning a fire wall to allow a Ranger to shoot arrows of fire through it.)

 

The world is actually ALIVE, and beautiful. WvWvW PVP, for all the DaoC fans.

 

 

The only way this game can fail is if it is as clunky and unresponsive as SWTOR, and they add 498238998498 stuns to the game with no DR.

 

forgot to mention fanboy, that there is tons of AOE spam abilities, all classes are basicaly the same, WvWvW is instanced and hmmm what is there more... oh yes horrible client, horrible engine. sounds like WAR round 2 to me. pretty sure GW2 engine wont be able to handle the keep sieges they are advertising but then again one can dream.

[TUXs]

Curious...

 

GW2 has more loading screens than SWTOR, SWTOR is trying to reduce the number.

GW2 will be available as a console game.

GW2 will sell cash shop items that allow all the hardwork of the hardcore players to be bypassed by the casuals for $10 - karma boosts, XP boosts, crafting boosts, inventory slots, etc.

 

How exactly is SWTOR turning into GW2?

[Gorrdan]

Curious...

 

GW2 has more loading screens than SWTOR, SWTOR is trying to reduce the number.

GW2 will be available as a console game.

GW2 will sell cash shop items that allow all the hardwork of the hardcore players to be bypassed by the casuals for $10 - karma boosts, XP boosts, crafting boosts, inventory slots, etc.

 

How exactly is SWTOR turning into GW2?

 

I have no idea if GW2 has more loading screen than SWTOR, infact from all the gameplay videos i have seen, loading screens are minimal. I am glad they are releasing GW2 for concole players after all it is business and consoles grabs majority of gaming market from balls.

 

Now item shops is purely cosmetic and since there is no gear grind or fear of being left behind all those XP boost will give you what advantage over other players? say you leveled faster to lvl 80 then what? there is no tier system so what advantage you will have for rushing to level cap?

[NukeMom]

forgot to mention fanboy, that there is tons of AOE spam abilities, all classes are basicaly the same, WvWvW is instanced and hmmm what is there more... oh yes horrible client, horrible engine. sounds like WAR round 2 to me. pretty sure GW2 engine wont be able to handle the keep sieges they are advertising but then again one can dream.

 

And zero of those things are true, wow. It's one thing to say you don't like the idea of a game, but to be just completely misinformed about it and then spout hate at the misinformation is sad.

 

GW2 will sell cash shop items that allow all the hardwork of the hardcore players to be bypassed by the casuals for $10 - karma boosts, XP boosts, crafting boosts, inventory slots, etc.

 

Yeah, no. Nothing in the GW2 item shop lets you buy your way into winning. Sure, there's some XP boosts, but that doesn't let you "win" anything or "bypass hard work".

Edited April 5, 2012 by NukeMom

[Gorrdan]

And zero of those things are true, wow. It's one thing to say you don't like the idea of a game, but to be just completely misinformed about it and then spout hate at the misinformation is sad.

 

 

 

Yeah, no. Nothing in the GW2 item shop lets you buy your way into winning. Sure, there's some XP boosts, but that doesn't let you "win" anything or "bypass hard work".

 

People are grasping at straws. Given the condition of pvp in SWTOR it is hilarious to see people trying too hard to find flaws in GW2 PVP.

[xxIncubixx]

And zero of those things are true, wow. It's one thing to say you don't like the idea of a game, but to be just completely misinformed about it and then spout hate at the misinformation is sad.

 

 

 

Yeah, no. Nothing in the GW2 item shop lets you buy your way into winning. Sure, there's some XP boosts, but that doesn't let you "win" anything or "bypass hard work".

 

lol nope i aint

[EnochThompson]

forgot to mention fanboy, that there is tons of AOE spam abilities, all classes are basicaly the same, WvWvW is instanced and hmmm what is there more... oh yes horrible client, horrible engine. sounds like WAR round 2 to me. pretty sure GW2 engine wont be able to handle the keep sieges they are advertising but then again one can dream.

 

What game had it right at launch? Sure GW2 will have bug issues at release just like every other game... Big difference is that you don't pay a monthly sub.

 

Right now we all pay for something that is half ***, I myself already invested on pre-release cost and 5 months sub which is a total of approximately 200$ for: 2 dungeons to do every week for Rakata and stupid repeatable daily's, and lets not forget on dead servers WZ pops every 10 minutes.

 

So my enjoyment in this game is to stand in the IMP ship just waiting for WZ to pop every 10 minutes at a cost of 15$ a month... Sad... Is this really worth the 15$ a month...

 

Let's not forget the grind we all did in PVP to only end up with free gear next patch, now that's a slap in the face.

 

Trust me no monthly sub WvWvW will be more interesting then waiting 10 minutes for WZ pops and paying 15$ a month.

[NukeMom]

lol nope i aint

 

....you "ain't" what?

Edited April 5, 2012 by NukeMom