Why did Swtor turn into GW2?

[joeypesci]

All gear worthless since its all freebie come 1.2...Who wants to pay a monthly sub for no progression just welfare for all? PvP just lost its carrot on a stick thanks for killing this game faster than Rift BW....

 

Maybe because gear shouldn't be a factor in PvP it should be pure skill and not just about gear. This patch will show the weak from the chaff as I bet there are a lot of people with high end gear rolling people, just because of the gear. Level them out and they'll play crap against people with the same gear.

[Scoobings]

I think all the hype over GW2 is comical because NO GAME will live up to the hype that inerds give a game these days.

 

What Bioware pulled with Ilum and the absolute after thought the zone obviously was, the minimal internal testing they did, the bugs, the lack of anything 'exciting' to do, the complete ignoring of the promised 'world pvp' infuriates me...I won't play GW2, I hate that fantasy setting and cash shop games...but I also have little doubt GW2 PvP will be much better than the crap we have. Geezus...honestly, how could it POSSIBLY be worse?!

 

Bioware needs to get busy with PvP in THIS game. It should be their focus IMO...especially over the worthless cosmetic Legacy crap they're hyping.

 

I'm there with you. I'm really not a big fan of fantasy, unfortunately that seems to be the only place where developers keep their head out of their *** long enough to make a decent game.

 

I don't get it either, you could literally make the same games that are coming out and reskin them to sci-fi pretty easily. Make them a little more unique, and make them stand out from the aisles and aisles of Fantasy games out there. Would love to see a diablo 3 style game that was Sci-fi.

 

I'm predicting the engine that they chose to put this game on is going to ultimately be it's death. I really don't think they're going to be able to get the scale of PVP people want out of this engine. Which is really a shame, I wish they had spent some of that money on developing their own engine that wasn't terrible. Because the PVP at it's core in this game I think it's pretty balanced and well functioning.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Scoobings

[NukeMom]

I'm predicting the engine that they chose to put this game on is going to ultimately be it's death. I really don't think they're going to be able to get the scale of PVP people want out of this engine.

 

That's 100% true. This engine is AWFUL and is a large part of why I can't stand logging in anymore.

[Badlander]

Back in the day ppl were willing to put time into earning gear, sadly now the entitlement generation has started playing mmo's and has ruined WOW and many other games.

The entitlement generation feels they should have everything right now with no work on a silver platter...

 

This says it all.

[NukeMom]

Back in the day ppl were willing to put time into earning gear, sadly now the entitlement generation has started playing mmo's and has ruined WOW and many other games.

The entitlement generation feels they should have everything right now with no work on a silver platter...

 

This says it all.

 

Does it say it all? "Back in the day" in MMO's gear didn't even matter that much and it wasn't even that hard to get. It wasn't until latter expansions in WoW with the insane gear scaling that people started taking gear so damn seriously in the genre.

[Noctournys]

The OP grossly exaggerates the effect of the PvP gear changes coming in SWTOR Update 1.2. Nothing in the update will "kill" SWTOR. The new rated gear will not be a "freebie"; it will still require a time investment, as each piece requires not only rated war zone tokens, but also the corresponding Battlemaster piece as a trade-in.

 

Unfortunately, people have a tendency to prefer to speak in absolutes. It's easier to do that. Consideration of shades of grey and complexity is confusing and requires the application of critical thinking skills. It's also easier to resort to personal attacks rather than calmly and politely attempting to refute a person whose belief is different than your own with the dispassionate application of logic and facts. As soon as one side resorts to ad hominem personal attacks, the rational debate ends.

 

Notwithstanding my criticisms of the original post and its exaggerations, I agree with the basic sentiment expressed in it to the following extent: I believe it's a mistake to move away from a progression-based system in SWTOR's PvP. Progression is the key to retaining subscribers in a subscription-based MMO like SWTOR. Guild Wars is not a subscription-based MMO, subscriber retention is not a concern, and therefore character progression is not a significant feature of GW's PvP system. It is akin to the Battlefield series in this respect.

 

I played the original Guild Wars and had a blast. For a few months. Then I moved on to the next PvP-based MMO, probably a Battlefield series title. Without tangible incentives and the ability to advance my character in significant terms over time, I ultimately tire of the "same old same old". Although most people don't like to admit this, there is a point past which your skill simply does not improve further in a video game. If my skill level has hit a plateau, and there is no way to further tangibly improve my character, why not move on to something new?

 

Like it or not, WoW is the most commercially successful subscriber-based MMO to date. And WoW has featured PvP gear progression since the implementation of the PvP system in WoW. Combine this with the fact that WoW's Battlegrounds are very similar to SWTOR's War Zones, and the underlying class based mechanics are similar to the extent of employing the same basic archetypes, and we may reasonably conclude that WoW's PvP incentive system is a better model for SWTOR's PvP inventive system than GW's.

 

I believe each tier of ranked WZ gear in SWTOR should provide a benefit over the prior rank, albeit a small one. Minor cosmetic differences are not a sufficient reward to keep me around over time. This model has proven successful in WoW for years. The highest ranked Arena players tend to retain that ranking season after season. Gear differences are unimportant as all competitive players will ultimately have the same quality gear. That these same people continue to dominate the rankings indicates that it is skill, and not gear or time invested, that is the key differentiating factor.

 

I play WZ's daily on a PvP server. Most of the people playing regularly are all Battlemasters. There's not much of a gear difference between one player and the next, on average. The fact these people continue to play day after day demonstrates that they aren't playing to enjoy "curb stomping scrubs" who have no PvP gear. Rather, the reason they SAY they continue to play is because they are seeking those last few pieces of BM gear, etc. Tangible rewards achieved only after a significant time investment are more meaningful than those handed out immediately. I believe that many of the regular WZ participants I see on my server would stop playing after gear advancement opportunities ceased; I know many already have in my guild for this reason (and that's a PvP-centric guild with over 300 members currently).

 

The same arguments fielded in favor of dismantling a progression based system in PvP can be leveled against a progression based system in PvE.

 

Q: Why not remove the level-based system altogether, give all players access to all skills and all gear from the moment they start playing, and thereby make all PvE raids succeed or fail based purely on the organization of the raid group and skill of its individual members?

 

A: Because this is an awful model for a subscription-based MMO. Well-organized guilds will complete all PvE content in days and move on to the next game.

 

How is getting trounced by an AI NPC due to sub-optimal gear more frustrating and "game breaking" than being beaten by a player with better gear? It seems a problem with some individual egos rather than game mechanics.

 

Continued tangible character progression opportunities are critical to the long-term retention of subscribers in an MMO. Remove that carrot and you will make some people happy in the short-term, but in the long term, few people will continue paying to play an MMO in which their character can no longer advance in power in meaningful ways.

 

Pure win.

[Scoobings]

Does it say it all? "Back in the day" in MMO's gear didn't even matter that much and it wasn't even that hard to get. It wasn't until latter expansions in WoW with the insane gear scaling that people started taking gear so damn seriously in the genre.

 

So you weren't there for 40 man Nax in vanilla WoW I'm assuming. Because there were mages 2 shotting people. Back then, when I had enough time to do those raids, my rogue could kill poor clothies before my cheapshot wore off. Gear has almost always a large factor in fights in MMOs and multiplayer RPGs in general.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Scoobings

[NukeMom]

So you weren't there for 40 man Nax in vanilla WoW I'm assuming. Because there were mages 2 shotting people. Back then, when I had enough time to do those raids, my rogue could kill poor clothies before my cheapshot wore off. Gear has almost always a large factor in fights in MMOs.

 

You didn't even need Naxx-40 gear to do that, burst DPS classes were just out of control period back in vanilla WoW. Hell, rogues could kill people naked because of their flat damage values. (And I'm not just referring to WoRc videos, either) and PoM/Pyro did insane damage even in crap blues.

[Scoobings]

The OP grossly exaggerates the effect of the PvP gear changes coming in SWTOR Update 1.2. Nothing in the update will "kill" SWTOR. The new rated gear will not be a "freebie"; it will still require a time investment, as each piece requires not only rated war zone tokens, but also the corresponding Battlemaster piece as a trade-in.

 

Unfortunately, people have a tendency to prefer to speak in absolutes. It's easier to do that. Consideration of shades of grey and complexity is confusing and requires the application of critical thinking skills. It's also easier to resort to personal attacks rather than calmly and politely attempting to refute a person whose belief is different than your own with the dispassionate application of logic and facts. As soon as one side resorts to ad hominem personal attacks, the rational debate ends.

 

Notwithstanding my criticisms of the original post and its exaggerations, I agree with the basic sentiment expressed in it to the following extent: I believe it's a mistake to move away from a progression-based system in SWTOR's PvP. Progression is the key to retaining subscribers in a subscription-based MMO like SWTOR. Guild Wars is not a subscription-based MMO, subscriber retention is not a concern, and therefore character progression is not a significant feature of GW's PvP system. It is akin to the Battlefield series in this respect.

 

I played the original Guild Wars and had a blast. For a few months. Then I moved on to the next PvP-based MMO, probably a Battlefield series title. Without tangible incentives and the ability to advance my character in significant terms over time, I ultimately tire of the "same old same old". Although most people don't like to admit this, there is a point past which your skill simply does not improve further in a video game. If my skill level has hit a plateau, and there is no way to further tangibly improve my character, why not move on to something new?

 

Like it or not, WoW is the most commercially successful subscriber-based MMO to date. And WoW has featured PvP gear progression since the implementation of the PvP system in WoW. Combine this with the fact that WoW's Battlegrounds are very similar to SWTOR's War Zones, and the underlying class based mechanics are similar to the extent of employing the same basic archetypes, and we may reasonably conclude that WoW's PvP incentive system is a better model for SWTOR's PvP inventive system than GW's.

 

I believe each tier of ranked WZ gear in SWTOR should provide a benefit over the prior rank, albeit a small one. Minor cosmetic differences are not a sufficient reward to keep me around over time. This model has proven successful in WoW for years. The highest ranked Arena players tend to retain that ranking season after season. Gear differences are unimportant as all competitive players will ultimately have the same quality gear. That these same people continue to dominate the rankings indicates that it is skill, and not gear or time invested, that is the key differentiating factor.

 

I play WZ's daily on a PvP server. Most of the people playing regularly are all Battlemasters. There's not much of a gear difference between one player and the next, on average. The fact these people continue to play day after day demonstrates that they aren't playing to enjoy "curb stomping scrubs" who have no PvP gear. Rather, the reason they SAY they continue to play is because they are seeking those last few pieces of BM gear, etc. Tangible rewards achieved only after a significant time investment are more meaningful than those handed out immediately. I believe that many of the regular WZ participants I see on my server would stop playing after gear advancement opportunities ceased; I know many already have in my guild for this reason (and that's a PvP-centric guild with over 300 members currently).

 

The same arguments fielded in favor of dismantling a progression based system in PvP can be leveled against a progression based system in PvE.

 

Q: Why not remove the level-based system altogether, give all players access to all skills and all gear from the moment they start playing, and thereby make all PvE raids succeed or fail based purely on the organization of the raid group and skill of its individual members?

 

A: Because this is an awful model for a subscription-based MMO. Well-organized guilds will complete all PvE content in days and move on to the next game.

 

How is getting trounced by an AI NPC due to sub-optimal gear more frustrating and "game breaking" than being beaten by a player with better gear? It seems a problem with some individual egos rather than game mechanics.

 

Continued tangible character progression opportunities are critical to the long-term retention of subscribers in an MMO. Remove that carrot and you will make some people happy in the short-term, but in the long term, few people will continue paying to play an MMO in which their character can no longer advance in power in meaningful ways.

 

I.... think.... I think I love you.

[Scoobings]

You didn't even need Naxx-40 gear to do that, burst DPS classes were just out of control period back in vanilla WoW. Hell, rogues could kill people naked because of their flat damage values. (And I'm not just referring to WoRc videos, either) and PoM/Pyro did insane damage even in crap blues.

 

That's true to some extent but the gear really made a huge difference as I recall. The burst classes were for sure out of control back then though you're right.

[Vhok]

Back in the day ppl were willing to put time into earning gear, sadly now the entitlement generation has started playing mmo's and has ruined WOW and many other games.

The entitlement generation feels they should have everything right now with no work on a silver platter...

 

Really? Cause back in the day we pvp'd for the challange and the fun of of it, if you need "new gear" you bought it, made it yourslef, or killed some and took theirs (what novel idea). You to feel your entitled to "gear" because you sat on your *** in a chair in front of computer screen longer than someone else. Earning gold to buy your armor, busting your *** mining, skining, and crafting something to make the masterpeice with your name on it, or killing someone using your brain and skills and taking their "gear", thats working for it, you just punched a clock longer than someonelse.

[Blistrich]

This is an interesting discussion, because as I recall, the largest gripe among WoW players when the Arena was introduced was that PvP reward gear was now part of an eternal grinding formula; the end result of which was entirely predictable - the hardcore PvP types ended up weighed down by epic amounts of crazy gear that turned them into mobile killing floors while the casual population was left behind in the dust eating humble pie while running heroics all day on the off-chance that the one piece of gear they needed to progress to the next raid would finally drop, thus giving them a 1.235% healing advantage over another person who wanted the same raid spot.

 

WoW is gear. Gear is WoW.

 

Gear is the reason. Gear is the focus. Gear is the heart of the game.

 

So the real question is, how far in that direction is it healthy for an MMO to go in?

 

As for how this impacts SWTOR, well, bear in mind that SWTOR is still in its infancy. We're at the stage Warcraft was at when everyone was running around outside Tarren Mill waiting for some noob to pop up and make the killcounters go "DING!", which was about the closest thing to a "reward" that was available at the time.

[Olympic]

The WoW formula turned MMO gamers, and post WoW gamers, into trained monkeys.

 

"Press lever (war zone) and get your sugar treat (gear)."

 

I suppose it works from the business perspective, but it does make a weak game model as far as depth is concerned.

[Coyotecalls]

Bioware lied to us about PVP from the get go. They said you would be able to level in PVP at the same rate you could level in PVE and at the beginning that was true but once they got players playing they reduced the XP, reduced the money, reduced the rewards and made it not worth doing.

 

Bioware is nothing but a team of drug dealers offering the first hit then expecting you to keep paying even though the product they charge you for isn't any good any more.

 

Guess what Bioware? YOUR NOT BLIZZARD! *LOL* You can't get away with that BS.

 

I'm only playing this month because someone in my guild PAID MY MONTH so I would stay around till 1.2 came out to try it. They want the game to be good THAT MUCH. Honestly, with the state of PVP, the dead servers, the fact it takes me 2 HOURS to get a match some times, I don't see myself sticking around even after 1.2 unless the patch has more miracles than Jesus.

[wiazabi]

If progression means capturing keeps for your server, well thats enough progression for me. Just playing with siege weapons is fun enough.

[Thundartwothree]

Follow GW1's footsteps and die?

 

You mean, the MMO that was so unsuccessful, that ArenaNet folded, but they are bringing out another 1 to lose ohh so much more money? :rolleyes:

 

**** with your fancy logic and reason, this forum will have none of it! NONE OF IT I SAY!

[NukeMom]

. Without tangible incentives and the ability to advance my character in significant terms over time, I ultimately tire of the "same old same old". Although most people don't like to admit this, there is a point past which your skill simply does not improve further in a video game. If my skill level has hit a plateau, and there is no way to further tangibly improve my character, why not move on to something new?

 

I guess I would disagree. Games aren't supposed to just be treadmills. Games should be fun, entertaining, etc. You should be enjoying the game while you're playing it, not afterwards when you get a new shiny bauble to fawn over.

 

Look at games like SC, LoL, even lesser known but fun games like World of Tanks. (Though I could do without the cash shop selling uber-tanks in that game) Even though there's no shiny to grind for that lets you beat up people who don't have that same shiny, people still keep playing them because they have fun doing it.

 

Sad that people seem to have lost sight of that in MMO's. People focus so much on the gear element that you'll seriously hear things like, "Why should I even play if there's no gear grind?!?!?"

 

That just seems sad.

Edited April 5, 2012 by NukeMom

[Rickwala]

I dont get it, there are gear reqhirements for pve in this game and nobody complains but in pvp there are gear requirements to work towards and everyone complains? Is the difference really just you are so scared of a human beating that you post whiney threads about it? Try fighting soa hm with orange mod gear, you will equally get slaughtered. What am i missing here.

[Extenzz]

I'm from "back in the day" (Woo, MUDs!) and I have to say that it sounds retarded when people go on about how they put so much work into a valor rank and they deserve advantages in PvP. Really? Because grinding out valor is hard?

 

Same here RE: MUDs - Genocide anyone? Playing on a 2400 baud modem and owning fools N,E,S,W style is definitely "back in the day."

 

I play casually now and am currently valor rank 68 with BM/Champ gear and find the gear grind dull and the commendation system simply retarded (batting 8% or so on BM commendations). I do like the WZs overall and enjoy the PvP play style. I left competitive WoW PvP for this game and feel so far there is more class balance here and the gear system seems fine (though rigid in terms of modification). Maybe 1.2 will help.

 

I'm not sure what to think about giving everyone the same gear without some effort. I was competitive in 50 warzones the minute I hit 50 and do enjoy being rewarded with better (looking) gear for my time. For people crying on the forums that new 50s are fodder for BattleMasters my message to you is simple: l2p. The stat difference on BM gear is pretty minimal compared to champion/centurion and it's really not that hard to gear up in full centurion.

 

GW2 looks great on paper and I've always wanted to see an MMO get world PvP right and include objectives/fortifications and more complexity in the reward system. WoW and SWTOR both cater to a PvE crowd and have really not figured out how to balance PvE and PvP in an engaging way for the PvP folks. If I have to raid to compete, that's the end of my sub (whoever posted about rogues running around with legendary weapons hit that spot on).

 

Remember, though, this game is young and still has a solid base of players so we can only hope BW gets a few things right and keeps us engaged. If not, GW2 awaits and who knows what next.

[Seriasx]

Back in the day ppl were willing to put time into earning gear, sadly now the entitlement generation has started playing mmo's and has ruined WOW and many other games.

The entitlement generation feels they should have everything right now with no work on a silver platter...

 

Back in the day there was no pvp gear because it would have ruined the competitive pvp which as we all know was the entire purpose of pvp in the first place.

 

Now a days we get people like yourself who think playing instanced pvp with zero chance of loss upon death for hours on end is somehow earning something.

[Olympic]

Back in the day there was no pvp gear because it would have ruined the competitive pvp which as we all know was the entire purpose of pvp in the first place.

 

Now a days we get people like yourself who think playing instanced pvp with zero chance of loss upon death for hours on end is somehow earning something.

 

 

This is pretty much it, have a sugar treat...

[Seriasx]

I dont get it, there are gear reqhirements for pve in this game and nobody complains but in pvp there are gear requirements to work towards and everyone complains? Is the difference really just you are so scared of a human beating that you post whiney threads about it? Try fighting soa hm with orange mod gear, you will equally get slaughtered. What am i missing here.

 

Because pve players fight the easiest raid mob for the lowest raid drop all the way to the highest dragon and the best loot.

 

Pvp doesnt work like this because all players regardless of gear fight one another, the ones with the gear beat the ones without the gear and the only way to get gear is by winning, the saddest part being that none of us want gear in the first place, were pvpers and we want to kill everyone without dumb gear advantages from playing more often.

[NukeMom]

Try fighting soa hm with orange mod gear, you will equally get slaughtered. What am i missing here.

 

Actually you can do nightmare Soa in modded gear just fine.

[catnipkiller]

rift is back up and pvp pops fast as hell btw

 

 

this games dead quit playing it see ya all in guild wars 2

[Faat]

Clearly, GW2 discussions leads to the dark side of the force, all those emotions flowing, hate, love, anger... Stay calm, relax, take a chill pill, the light side is much better, the dark side leads to destruction.

 

Some people are in for a massive disapointment, as games can't please everyone, and also because the WoW generation is so spoiled that they always and only see flaws instead of having fun playing a different game. Same can be said about CoD generation. 1st person shooters have all become gimmicks of those games. I miss the old DOOM, Quake, Dune 2, Xwing, yet they constantly release clones and dumb down everything so kids can play.

 

So many people took WoW so serious, take e-sports like LoL so seriously, that some will surely developp psychiatric problems or cancer diseases over being overly stressed for too long. Step back from the PC folks, GW2 ain't released, SWTOR updates are incoming for the better of the game. Also, some people liked GW1, some didn't. Some vote Rep some vote Demo, some are Canadian and don't give a fuss. Like most gamers, I'll play GW2 but I'm not hyped whatsoever, and don't believe the hype. Remember the broken promises for SWTOR. But SWTOR is still a great game. It can only improve. If you're fed up, move on, no one cares that your feelings are hurt.

 

If you want extreme gear imbalance and class disparity, go play Warhammer. See how it was so succesfull as a model. If anything, SWTOR better be doing everything to get away from the WAR fiasco.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Faat