PVP Tank spec, damage higher than intended. [Design flaw]

[Mize]

I've read countless forum threads, and lots of whine threads, about nearly every class. I never saw myself posting one, but I do so in the vain hope that it will get some kind of attention that may eventually reach the ears of those who control class balance.

 

Many of you know the spec, and abuse it heavily. I really can't blame you because who wouldn't use the most powerful build in PVP? We're talking about 31/0/10, or 27/0/14. When the Shadow/Sin class was designed, I'm very certain the devs had intended people using the tank tree to be using tank gear. However, by using DPS heavy stats and stacking power/surge while using a focus, PVP Shadows/Sins have found they are much more mobile and able to dish out large amounts of consistent damage.

 

This stems mainly from a few abilities that, when used with the aforementioned heavy DPS stats, do much greater than intended damage (Note I have spelled out terms for both Shadow and Assassin):

 

Energize/Particle Acceleration: When using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, each hit of Double Strike/Thrash has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Project/Shock and cause it to auto-crit. If Force Potency/Recklessness is popped, it adds +50% crit damage (This hits VERY hard with FP/Reck popped).

 

Bombardment/Electrify: Makes Project/Shock do +15% base damage.

 

Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness: Project/Shock has a 100% chance to grant a stack of HS/HD, which causes the next Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning to be uninterruptible and have no pushback. Also, each stack adds 25% damage, to a max of 75% bonus damage with 3 stacks.

 

Force Synergy/Exploitive Strikes: Critical hits with Force attacks add 9% melee crit for 10 seconds. With crit Project/Shocks going off, this ability has a long and dependable uptime.

 

Upheavel/Chain Shock: Project/Shock has a 45% chance to activate a second Project/Shock that does 50% of normal damage.

 

Force in Balance/Death Field: Deals 1002-1066 damage to up to 3 targets in an 8-meter radius, healing you for 1% of max health for each target struck.

 

 

 

The above abilities, when used in combination with gear heavier on Willpower, Crit, Power, and Surge, are able to deal very high and consistent damage. It is my opinion that the devs did not balance these abilities around DPS gear, but rather to give tanks sufficient damage to hold threat and maintain decent DPS.

 

This spec, 31/0/10 or 27/0/14, is a very resilient build as well. By using Dark Charge/Combat Technique, armor is automatically increased by 150%. White damage is still a significant source of DPS in this game, and that boost to armor is nothing to scoff at. Also, by using the Darkness/Combat trees, players will pick up many defensive and utility abilities as well, making this the most mobile and defensive of all Shadow/Sin builds. Just to touch on this, here are the advantages gained in the mobility/utility department:

 

- Force speed cooldown reduced to 20s, and breaks roots/snares on use.

 

- Force Shroud/Resilience lasts 2 seconds longer, and has a 15 second shorter cooldown. (this is a VERY powerful cooldown, on a 45 second timer!)

 

- 10% max health every 2 min (Impact Control/Hollow in tank tree)

 

- Force Pull, I think this one speaks for itself. Basically a melee/short-range DPS class that can pull targets to them. Yes Vanguard/Powertech can do this anyway, but I'm just citing how this adds a lot to the utility of this build.

 

- Spinning Kick/Spike usable out of stealth. This gives Shadow/Sin two stuns and an interrupt.

 

- Force Lift/Whirlwind activation time removed, instant cast, and adds 2s stun if broken early on damage. This depends on build, but adds a great level of battlefield control on a 1 min cooldown. You have to ditch Harnessed Shadows/Darkness for this though, so damage is traded for utility.

 

 

 

Those of you that play this build and gearing know how powerful it is. I cannot blame you at all for (ab)using it, as every PVP player will take any edge they can get. However, you just can't claim that the Tank tree was intended to be played this way. It is out of balance, and for lack of a better term, just straight OP. You can respond with L2P, how you die all the time in this spec, etc. etc. It doesn't really matter, because you are defending something you don't want to lose. Are these players un-killable? Of course not, and PVP for the most part is a team affair. One Shadow/Sin with the FOTM build is not going to win the WZ for you. But properly supported, they can be absolute machines that tip the scales far too much in their team's favor. In numbers, this build is downright scary.

 

I hope I've shed some light on an imbalance, and again my only intention was to make a public explanation in the hopes that a Dev might see or hear about this. Not looking for support or criticism. If you don't believe me, play it yourself with real gear (read: Champ/BM) and learn how to excel with the build.

 

----

 

P.S. If this strategy is indeed nerfed, Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness NEED to be buffed somewhat to make Shadow/Sin DPS more formidable when they have less survivability. In no way am I saying to adjust the popular spec and not make up for the shortcomings of the true damage specs.

[Astarica]

The biggest problem with Assassin tank DPS is that Darkness DPS comes from Force Attack, which is unaffected by the 5% penalty. Also, an offhand does not increase any melee attack beyond the normal amount of +willpower/crit/surge on the focus, but you get an incredible 600 Force Power for all Force-based attack from your offhand. If you look at the attacks, normally it works out weapon damage gets the 140 weapon damage added, while Force attacks gets 600 FP added so those are suposed to be even. However, your offhand adds 0 to weapon damage, but 600 FP to Force attacks. Basically, you can think of Force attacks getting the benefit as if you can simply put the weapon + focus as if it's one rating 280 super weapon, while melee attack only benefit from a single weapon (rating 140).

 

The easiest fix would be to make offhand simply +600 Power, not +600 Force Power. That way melee damage gets increased by the same amount as Force-based attack. This should help Deception some too since that built is most dependent on melee attacks. Of course if you do this with all classes that uses an offhand it'd result a significant increase (~7% for melee/ranged classification DPS) so maybe you need to scale everyone's total DPS by a couple % to compensate, or change offhand from 600 Force Power to 400 Power. It'd be a nerf to Force-based built (mostly Darkness) and a buff to melee-based built, and if you're somewhere in between like Madness hybrids you probably break even.

[AetherMcLoud]

The problem isn't that darkness does too much damage, the problem is that Deception is way to squishy.

[Skorpeo]

The problem isn't that darkness does too much damage, the problem is that Deception is way to squishy.

 

^ this. Sorc has better damage, survivability, and CC then Deception or Madness. Pretty sad when the same armor class can do all this and from range. Sure Madness or Deception can do great in PVP but thats with a pocket healer and/or guard up 100% of the time. Until they buff survivability to Deception or Madness, be prepared to see a lot of Darkness spec players.

 

Oh and if they nerf Darkness and not do anything about the other two specs, be prepared to see a lot of aggravted players.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Skorpeo

[Pwnyride]

^ this. Sorc has better damage, survivability, and CC then Deception or Madness. Pretty sad when the same armor class can do all this and from range. Sure Madness or Deception can do great in PVP but thats with a pocket healer and/or guard up 100% of the time. Until they buff survivability to Deception or Madness, be prepared to see a lot of Darkness spec players.

 

Oh and if they nerf Darkness and not do anything about the other two specs, be prepared to see a lot of aggravted players.

 

This.

 

I find as deception without a pocket healer, I basically exit stealth burst one-2 people down then find myself running away or force cloaking to go find healing or to seethe because im probably near death, with the very distinct animation that is Voltic slash as soon as people see it they realize im not darkness and will focus me. I love decep to death but god im squishy...

[jkcheng]

I don't really believe Darkness Assassins are doing too much damage in DPS gear. I've had both the 23/1/17 and 7/3/31 Madness builds and targets go down way faster in the Madness spec. This is simply an issue of trading survivability for DPS. Perhaps in this case, PVP-wise, the gain in survivability is larger than the loss in DPS, but I certainly won't go as far as to say damage is too high or even higher than intended.

 

Just last night I was in a match and caught in a 2v1 vs a Merc healer, I don't recall what class my partner was, but the 2 of us literally took about 2 to 3 minutes to DPS down the healer while his team was scoring the ball. At this point we've already lost the match (was like 4-1 with 2min left) so I didn't care and wanted to see if this guy can actually be killed. I can't say our DPS is too high when me plus another guy couldn't out-DPS the Merc's heals until we managed to CC-chain him when we got him down to about half.

[Nethershadow]

Blah blah blah

 

Seriously, how do you know damage is "higher than intended"?

 

Post your proof or stop complaining.

 

What you posted is not proof, just alot of whine.

 

If you want to complain about tanks doing to much damage than start at the PT forums as they are king.

 

All you are trying to do here is cry enough to get Sins Darkness nerfed which is fine, not OP and not UP, just fine. The other specs need a bit of love in some areas, and so you either want all 3 Sin specs to suck or you just got beat up in pvp by a Sin.

 

You know how many threads there are about Sins/Shadows being OP in damage? None or very few, and that is because they arent, they are doing ok in BM gear compared to every other BM.

 

/end thread for god sake.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Nethershadow

[Abiza]

The problem isn't that darkness does too much damage, the problem is that Deception is way to squishy.

 

^^^We have winner!! Imagine taking a sorcerer, stripping him of his bubble, and put him in melee range. Watch how fast he gets ripped apart. I'd bet that most of us never imagined we'd have to be tank spec to be effective in WZ's against other well geared teams.

 

 

*posting in a "i got my feelings hurt in a warzone" thread.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Abiza

[kninekaji]

As someone else in the thread has pointed out, how do you know the damage is "higher than intended"? Since you seem to think that you know our class mechanics and how the developers wanted this class to function, what are our abilities hitting for?

 

First off lets take a look one of our main damage skills as 31/0/10, shock. Against equally geared people (which is important when comparing damage stats, since equal gear will allow for higher mitigation via expertise), shock hits for ~1000 damage base and ~2.5k crits with reck popped, hardly "higher than intended" and definitely not "VERY hard" as you stated and since reck is on a long cd, its not something that is always available.

 

Second you list both specs and skills from both however, you do not distinguish that not all of these abilities are available to both specs, 31/0/10 does not get death field nor haunted dreams, but thanks for trying to misinform people to sway them toward your biased opinion.

 

Sorry you got owned, but maybe you should reanalyze why you got smacked and make adjustments, rather than coming to the forums and trying to fabricate information to counter your inability to play.

[Astarica]

How do you know Darkness does too much damage? When it's reliably top DPS in a WZ in any close games (Merc/Sorc tend to win in blowouts) not just compared to other specs but against all other classes. Darkness isn't like the Snipers/Sorcs that are dedicated to dotting everyone the entire game to pile up numbers, since we actually can't do anything like that to begin with. Wither is not a DPS padding skill because it hits harder than Thrash on even one guy so you'd be crazy to not use it.

 

Where does this single target take down DPS come from in Madness? What skills do you have that allows you to burst down one target quicker than Darkness for a dot-oriented spec? WZ numbers aren't everything, but it's hard to reliably come in top DPS and not somehow be better at killing people in every conceiveable situation, especially since Darkness doesn't have dots to let you fake your DPS.

[Malloc]

I'm not certain that our damage is higher then intended. Please note, without combat logs or any form of meter, all views on damage are empirical estimates at best and very prone to observer error.

 

Additionally, my sample size absolutely sucks for any form of proof. Only a dozen kills each were in this set. Sadly, I didn't save the times since we were just goofing around instead of trying to prove anything. We're waiting on combat logs for serious comparisons.

 

That said, I routinely team up with a tank speced Sith Juggernaut of comparable gear levels. We've spent time doing beating down champions with only PC healer backup. (This was Old Enemies on Belsavis, we'd kill him, drop the quest, pick it back up, and beat down the champion at the end again) Please note: this was in tanking gear, not dps gear.

 

It seems that we were getting close to the same kill times. (+/- 10%) I didn't save my results. Sometimes I was faster, sometimes he was faster. More often I was just a hair faster, but not by enough to be alarming, still within that nice 5% threshold. I really wish I'd saved the stopwatch numbers, but we were just trying to see who could out do the other. Of amusement though, I (the assassin) had both the slowest, and fastest kill, the Juggernaut was far more consistent.

 

Something to note though, we were both in traditional tanking gear (def, shield, abs) Once we get combat logs, I'll probably have a DPS set of gear finished and will have to try again. I know when he switches to his crit/surge/acc set he leaves me in the dust.

 

I don't think I want to spend several hours killing the same mob over and over again anytime soon just for empirical evidence. I think our healers might shiv us if we put them through that again.

 

Make of it what you will.

[Malloc]

How do you know Darkness does too much damage? When it's reliably top DPS in a WZ in any close games (Merc/Sorc tend to win in blowouts) not just compared to other specs but against all other classes. Darkness isn't like the Snipers/Sorcs that are dedicated to dotting everyone the entire game to pile up numbers, since we actually can't do anything like that to begin with. Wither is not a DPS padding skill because it hits harder than Thrash on even one guy so you'd be crazy to not use it.

 

Where does this single target take down DPS come from in Madness? What skills do you have that allows you to burst down one target quicker than Darkness for a dot-oriented spec? WZ numbers aren't everything, but it's hard to reliably come in top DPS and not somehow be better at killing people in every conceiveable situation, especially since Darkness doesn't have dots to let you fake your DPS.

 

Warzone counters arn't DPS counters, that's total damage done. I think we end up doing well on this for a few reasons. Part of this is because once people realize we're not dieing they often switch on to someone else, such as the squishier DPS and/or Healers. Out of any sizable clash I'm usually one of the last few to die. I'm certain if the Deception assassin I run with would be as unmolested as I am in most fights, he'd do far more damage.

 

We've also got probably the best escapes of any class due to Force Shroud / Force Cloak clearing negative effects and removing us from combat. Often this lets us duck around the corner, heal, and return to combat far quicker then other classes.

 

But again, this is all just conjecture on why. I still really want some consistent and accurate metric to use other then our random observations.

 

M

[SovereignDark]

The problem isn't that darkness does too much damage, the problem is that Deception is way to squishy.

 

This honestly explains the reason why I play darkness DPS in PvP.

 

When I first picked the Assassin to be my first character I decided I wanted to be DPS and I when I chose my first talent points at level 10 I started dropping them in deception and started down the rough road of deception PvE. When I transitioned into warzone at around level 35 I just noticed that I was getting completely domintated all the time, but I was still able to get my DPS pretty high for level 35, capping at around 200k most games and gained around 4-5 medals a game.

 

Then I heard about the darkness PvP spec and tryed it. I didn't really fall in love with the playstyle, but it was obvious that it was the better choice for PvP. I have added slows and survivability through damage mitigation and the slight heals from lightning. Now, at 50 with DPS cent gear I do around 140k damage with 30k protection points and 20k healing and I don't die every 30 seconds in a PuG, and seeing that I am on an RP server I generally only PuG.

 

If they buffed deceptions survivability and utility I would gladly switch back over to it, because I personally enjoy watching the voltaic slash animation.

 

 

 

But about it being overpowered I must disagree. My friend's Immortal DPS build equals the Darkness DPS spec in everything but the healing factor, but with even more utility. This goes the same for my Vanguard damage at a messily level 17 or so. At level 17 with ****** gear I do about 120k damage on my vanguard. I would imagine it would equal both those builds at 50 with gear.

 

I could go more in depth with my opinion on this but I really do not think it is necessary, but then again I'm also no Battlemaster on a PvP server so my interactions could be skewed.

[Astarica]

Warzone counters arn't DPS counters, that's total damage done. I think we end up doing well on this for a few reasons. Part of this is because once people realize we're not dieing they often switch on to someone else, such as the squishier DPS and/or Healers. Out of any sizable clash I'm usually one of the last few to die. I'm certain if the Deception assassin I run with would be as unmolested as I am in most fights, he'd do far more damage.

 

We've also got probably the best escapes of any class due to Force Shroud / Force Cloak clearing negative effects and removing us from combat. Often this lets us duck around the corner, heal, and return to combat far quicker then other classes.

 

But again, this is all just conjecture on why. I still really want some consistent and accurate metric to use other then our random observations.

 

M

 

Darkness/Kinetic don't run away from battle, and they sure get hit a lot. I'm not a big fan of Guard but you can also put up a lot of Protection numbers while doing top DPS, so it's not like you're a Sniper hiding in a corner somewhere that somehow got ignored. You're definitely very visible as Darkness.

 

I only look at close games because close game removes most of the DPS padding tactics. If you're only dotting someone the whole game, you're not really contributing much and it's unlikely the game would ever be close in the first place. In such a game, a Darkness Assassin and our counterpart in Republic is almost always in the running for top DPS. Only Marauder and Mercs can compete on a consistent level but neither can Guard, which is quite valuable in a close game too. Additionally we're far better than a Merc at running the Huttball, and we're better than either classes in defending objectives due to stealth.

 

It's true that a lot of games aren't close, and Darkness can lose quite badly against any standard DPS padding methods. We're also pretty bad in a blowout because it's hard to get DPS in if every guy you chase after exploded from a Tracer Missile before you even get within 10m of him. I also don't consider games like Huttball where if you as an Assassin was running the ball while a Merc was just raining missiles on everyone to be a good measure since the Merc in this case will easily blow your numbers away but if you want to win, someone's got to carry the ball and Darkness Assassins are one of the better ball carriers.

[Astarica]

There are plenty of Assassins running around with BM gear who aren't really that good, just like there are plenty of Mercs that shoot Tracer Missiles who aren't really that good. I pretty much played against all the top players on my server on either side. In an environment where padding DPS isn't possible (close game, non Huttball), the top Darkness Assassin is always in the running for top DPS against the top Merc and Marauder and no one else is close. Now factor in the Assassin can and should be (because it's a close game) guarding, and is far better than either class on defending objectives (stealth), the overall contribution is solidly in favor of the top Darkness Assassin.

 

Note that the further away from a close game the more likely you won't be the top DPS. Darkness Assassin is, after all, a tank, so if you're getting killed that's actually good because the enemy is attacking the worst target possible, so you shouldn't worry that you died 10 times while the Merc died twice, because your death hurts your team the least (by the fact that you're hardest to kill, not that your contribution is low). The other DPS classes will generally have far fewer deaths than you in non close games since you're supposed to be the one taking the deaths for them. In a close game, the enemy is not likely to be fooled by such tactics and will concentrate on taking other top DPS out (because they're roughly equal to you in DPS but certainly easier to kill).

[Pwnyride]

Make the bubble a sith inquistor talent that is unable to be used in darkcharge. Sin surviabilty goes to viable.

[iiconik]

Looks like Mize gets ripped apart in game as well as in the forums... Sins for the win

[Enexemander]

I respectfully disagree.

 

Note that I'm not Darkness DPS biased; I don't play Darkness DPS. The reason I don't play darkness dps is because the damage is really not good enough (in my opinion) to give up the survivability of playing Darkness in tanking gear.

 

I generally play Madness in PvP, because it does amazing damage. It is far and away more than anything darkness can do. I don't have a pocket healer or a guard, and I do just fine. Most of the abilities you're complaining about are available to Madness specs.

[upzie]

I respectfully disagree.

 

Note that I'm not Darkness DPS biased; I don't play Darkness DPS. The reason I don't play darkness dps is because the damage is really not good enough (in my opinion) to give up the survivability of playing Darkness in tanking gear.

 

I generally play Madness in PvP, because it does amazing damage. It is far and away more than anything darkness can do. I don't have a pocket healer or a guard, and I do just fine. Most of the abilities you're complaining about are available to Madness specs.

 

Untill some one decides your nuiance and starts focusing you.

[Astarica]

It's pointless to talk about the power of a class in the context of enemy ignorance. If your enemy has no idea who your best players are then it is entirely possible for even weak specs to get away with really good numbers. I only care about games that are actually close against opposition who is expected to shut down your best players. In such a game, even the powerhouse characters gets focus fired and killed rather quickly. There's no such thing as a player or class so powerful that it cannot be shut down by 2 good players on the enemy side. In these games you'd see a death ratio roughly proportional to the power of the class (powerful classes die more often because they're more dangerous). In these games only Merc and Marauder are competitive against Darkness Assassin for DPS. Now that in itself is fine except:

 

1. Darkness has higher survivality than your two closest competitors, so if you died as much as they do it implies the enemy probably DPS the wrong guys and that's a plus for your team.

 

2. Darkness can defend objectives far better than the other two classes (with stealth, you always have the element of surprise, even if they know you're nearby).

 

3. Darkness can guard, usually a key factor in close games.

 

A class with significant advantages in a close game should not be in the running for top DPS as well. In a close game Merc and Marauder can certainly do top DPS, but that's about all they can do. Darkness Assassins can do that and other important things at the same time.

[French-toast]

tank assassin dps is just fine how it is

 

learn your class and then people will go post on the forums about how OP you are.

[Enexemander]

Untill some one decides your nuiance and starts focusing you.

 

Oh, I get focused all the time. I'm fairly well known on my server. I just don't do stupid things like run into a situation where I'll be 3v1. By actually playing the game (staying with the ball, attacking/defending points, etc) I don't have to be a superhero. I just have to help my team (which I do, better than as darkness dps imo).

 

People get beef with me all the time and try to set up 1v1s, which I feel I do REALLY well at.

 

To be honest, as a Tank in PvE, it's nice to be full on dps in PvP.

[despised]

Tank assassins with full dps gear still do way lower damage than pure dps classes. There is now way to burn through a descent dedicated healer as one......and speaking of that, if you want to call for nerfs.....dedicated healers do more damage than tank assassins do so nerf them so they do no damage if they heal spec = )

[Astarica]

You don't just magically avoid being jumped by 3 guys if you're fighting say near a Voidstar door and the enemy recognized you're a top DPS character and thus all focus fire on you to put you down. Virtually anyone dies in that situation, and if this never happened to you then the other side didn't think you were enough of a threat to warrant doing this, because there's actually considerable drawbacks to focus fire an Assassin (Force Shroud is an extremely strong anti-focus fire ability). Now it's entirely possible the other side misjudged you, but if you're consistently awesome, you will die terribly next time you're up against a good team because good players remember who the opposing good players are.

 

Top DPS characters basically mutually annihilate each other because the only real threat to a top DPS is another top DPS. If you don't take out that top Marauder he's going to take you out, and top DPS versus each other is pretty close to 50/50 and the most common result is one guy dies and the other guy survives with 10% and then immediately dies to someone else, and both character look like chumps because they died 12 times each in the WZ.

[kninekaji]

It's pointless to talk about the power of a class in the context of enemy ignorance. If your enemy has no idea who your best players are then it is entirely possible for even weak specs to get away with really good numbers. I only care about games that are actually close against opposition who is expected to shut down your best players. In such a game, even the powerhouse characters gets focus fired and killed rather quickly. There's no such thing as a player or class so powerful that it cannot be shut down by 2 good players on the enemy side. In these games you'd see a death ratio roughly proportional to the power of the class (powerful classes die more often because they're more dangerous). In these games only Merc and Marauder are competitive against Darkness Assassin for DPS. Now that in itself is fine except:

 

1. Darkness has higher survivality than your two closest competitors, so if you died as much as they do it implies the enemy probably DPS the wrong guys and that's a plus for your team.

 

2. Darkness can defend objectives far better than the other two classes (with stealth, you always have the element of surprise, even if they know you're nearby).

 

3. Darkness can guard, usually a key factor in close games.

 

A class with significant advantages in a close game should not be in the running for top DPS as well. In a close game Merc and Marauder can certainly do top DPS, but that's about all they can do. Darkness Assassins can do that and other important things at the same time.

 

Sorry I don't agree. Mercs and Maras are not the only classes that can put up big total damage numbers and because of this your comparrison is not accrate. Any DPS class with a competent player on the keyboard can do more damage than a darkness sin.

 

I run with a Jugg, and he can definately do more total damage than me in a typical (close) WZ. Not only that, he has the option to go defensive and use guard when needed. So not only can he dominate the damage stats, he has the option to go defensive and help with guard mitigation, being able to pick damage OR defensive during a fight is something that a sin really cannot do, we are stuck with defense due to the force cost for stance changing. If you are going to argue that darkness sins do more damage than well played Merc, Mara, Jugg, Madness Sin or Sorc, then all I have to say find some new people to play with. Cause darkness dps will not be any where near those classes if they are played well.

 

Also as for your second point, we are not the only class with stealth, and what a revelation, stealth is great for holding resources. Who would of ever thought?

 

Again as I pointed out, your third point is not valid as a Jugg can do more damage and can also go guard if needed.