Bioware, what are you thinking?

[Lord_Scythe]

His language was hyperbolic, reactionary and highly emotional.

 

Trimming that out, his point was that large populations of the enemy suddenly appearing as allies is jarring and, based on the cultures involved, contrary to his interpretation of the lore. This breaks immersion for him, and, thus detracts from his enjoyment.

 

Should he have phrased it better? Absolutely.

 

Do I agree with him? Not in the least.

 

Does he have a valid point? For those who will find large numbers of Republic and Chiss jarring, his point is valid. For others, it is not.

 

Regardless a ton of my post is based on previous posts by the OP. I will find some of my favorites. These posts can be found here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337551&page=1

 

Here is my favorite:

 

In the screwy world of Star Wars "canon" there are no "facts". You have to be nuts to accept what even Lucas says at face value concerning these subjects, much less all of the spin off for profit media that form the EU.

 

My yardstick is simply the obvious meaning and intent in the movies, and common sense. If X author can make stuff up, I can too, and I find my version a better fit than most of what I've seen outside of the movies.

 

Short version: I'll play my Star Wars, you play yours.

 

Yet he constantly uses lore or canon to prove points. You can't say in one post that even what Lucas says is not lore and then use lore to prove your points!!!

[RuQu]

Regardless a ton of my post is based on previous posts by the OP. I will find some of my favorites. These posts can be found here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337551&page=1

 

Here is my favorite:

 

 

 

Yet he constantly uses lore or canon to prove points. You can't say in one post that even what Lucas says is not lore and then use lore to prove your points!!!

 

True, although I would argue that Lucas has done some substantial damage to the franchise, so there is a case to be made for arguing for lore independent of Lucas. He is legally the authority, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do more harm than good.

 

I'm not a giant SW lore fanatic, nor do I agree with the OP (I love the Legacy system except for the fact that it makes me need at least one more character slot). Without being a diehard SW fan, I still refuse to acknowledge the existence or canon of "those other 3 movies."

 

The fact that he makes poorly reasoned and impassioned arguments isn't really a good reason to chase him around the forums attacking him. His point is valid for people who share a certain interpretation of the lore, and no amount of pressure will force them to view this universe through your lenses (or mine). For people who feel like he does, this really is a bad system, but it is an awesome one for many of the rest of us, and it isn't going anywhere so he is left with only a handful of choices:

 

• Accept it.
  
• Protest it for the next 5 years to no avail.
  
• Quit.
  

[Lord_Scythe]

I'm just hearing about this and I don't like it. I could understand Rattataki going Republic or Miraluka and Mirialins going Imperial or even a Chiss going Republic. But the idea of a Sith Pureblood going Republic...that just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there is the possibility of those one in a billion defecting, but I'd have to imagine it would be hard for a Republic to trust a pureblood.

 

Yet this is a small part of game and is not a big deal. If you like this feature use it and if you don't then ignore it!

 

If other people making a choice to use this feature is going to offend you? Then is an mmo really your type of game? MMOs change weekly, monthly and yearly and not every change is going to be good for everyone. People with either adapt to changes they dislike or quit.

 

There is no way for anyone to make a million plus people happy all the time.

[Lord_Scythe]

True, although I would argue that Lucas has done some substantial damage to the franchise, so there is a case to be made for arguing for lore independent of Lucas. He is legally the authority, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do more harm than good.

 

I'm not a giant SW lore fanatic, nor do I agree with the OP (I love the Legacy system except for the fact that it makes me need at least one more character slot). Without being a diehard SW fan, I still refuse to acknowledge the existence or canon of "those other 3 movies."

 

The fact that he makes poorly reasoned and impassioned arguments isn't really a good reason to chase him around the forums attacking him. His point is valid for people who share a certain interpretation of the lore, and no amount of pressure will force them to view this universe through your lenses (or mine). For people who feel like he does, this really is a bad system, but it is an awesome one for many of the rest of us, and it isn't going anywhere so he is left with only a handful of choices:

 

• Accept it.
  
• Protest it for the next 5 years to no avail.
  
• Quit.
  

 

I totally agree with you about George doing more harm than good to his own franchise. As a matter of fact I no longer watch anything but the OT before it was reedited. I won't buy the blu-ray movies either.

 

I thought I was a giant SW fanatic until I came on these forums. I don't even hold a candle to many of the passionate fanatics on these boards. That said I roll with the punches and know how MMO's work. Good or bad the majority will win.

 

My main point is you can't say you do not believe in something and then use it as proof to your opinion.

 

Which lets face it everything is a personal opinion.

[RuQu]

I totally agree with you about George doing more harm than good to his own franchise. As a matter of fact I no longer watch anything but the OT before it was reedited. I won't buy the blu-ray movies either.

 

I thought I was a giant SW fanatic until I came on these forums. I don't even hold a candle to many of the passionate fanatics on these boards. That said I roll with the punches and know how MMO's work. Good or bad the majority will win.

 

My main point is you can't say you do not believe in something and then use it as proof to your opinion.

 

Which lets face it everything is a personal opinion.

 

We have the blu-ray versions only because we no longer have a working VHS player and that's what we had the OT on (grew up watching it on Betamax....and I think my grandfather's not only still works, but is still hooked up).

 

Don't think we disagree on much here except that I think his opinion is internally logically consistent. He wants his lore a certain way, and this system will oppose that. That said, he's out of luck.

[XadennX]

Anything before OT time line is total crap. I thought this game might be the one to break that sad streak, it was not. This mmo should have been based in the time frame of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

[Lord_Scythe]

We have the blu-ray versions only because we no longer have a working VHS player and that's what we had the OT on (grew up watching it on Betamax....and I think my grandfather's not only still works, but is still hooked up).

 

Don't think we disagree on much here except that I think his opinion is internally logically consistent. He wants his lore a certain way, and this system will oppose that. That said, he's out of luck.

 

Yep he is.

 

I think that anything that encourages players to play the opposing faction is fantastic.

 

Just Irks me when someone uses canon as a defense then when it is used to prove them wrong they chose not to believe in it!

 

I would like to know how much stuff has to be approved by Lucas Arts and what the procedure for that is.

[Xarcy]

If implemented this is a great idea. I have never been a huge fan of the arbitrary oh you are this race so you belong to this faction mentality.

 

Giving people the ability to mix and match race and faction is a winner. If only there was a greater selection of races apart from the human knock offs we have at the moment.

[Dandune]

Anything before OT time line is total crap. I thought this game might be the one to break that sad streak, it was not. This mmo should have been based in the time frame of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

 

That would be awesome though my human merc Tsavong wouldnt really fit in.

On the other hand my Major Natassi Daala vanguard works fine.

[Bielduwyn]

Anything before OT time line is total crap. I thought this game might be the one to break that sad streak, it was not. This mmo should have been based in the time frame of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

 

I needed a good laugh, thanks for that. If you were being serious I would've been worried!

[RuQu]

I needed a good laugh, thanks for that. If you were being serious I would've been worried!

 

I think he was.

 

You probably should be.

[VanorDM]

But the idea of a Sith Pureblood going Republic...

 

In the Jedi Knight story line, you can send a pure blood sith to Typhon to become a Jedi Knight. So for those who have an issue with it, it's already been done. A Jedi Sith is already canon.

[Hahkil]

It's happening. Get over it. /thread

[VanorDM]

Just Irks me when someone uses canon as a defense then when it is used to prove them wrong they chose not to believe in it!

 

I agree, it's an extreamly frustrating thing to have someone try and use lore to back up an argument, and when proven wrong fall back to the "Well that lore doesn't count" stance.

 

I've kinda come to the opinion that anyone who uses the first 3 movies as part of their argument, automatically loses the debate, because the events of those movies has little to nothing to do with this the events and background in this game.

 

The other problem with his point is it's based completely on wild speculation. There is no way to know the number of people who will play a pureblood Jedi. There is also no way of knowing just how many are too many... Considering there's no lore that states how common such a thing is.

 

 

The only thing I know of, is that my Jedi redeemed a Sith who went to Typhon and showed up again as a full fledged Jedi. So it has happened at least once. Also the Jedi Console does not seem to be overly concerned about the race or even past of people, considering how any former Sith I've run into.

 

[Lord_Scythe]

I agree, it's an extreamly frustrating thing to have someone try and use lore to back up an argument, and when proven wrong fall back to the "Well that lore doesn't count" stance.

 

I've kinda come to the opinion that anyone who uses the first 3 movies as part of their argument, automatically loses the debate, because the events of those movies has little to nothing to do with this the events and background in this game.

 

The other problem with his point is it's based completely on wild speculation. There is no way to know the number of people who will play a pureblood Jedi. There is also no way of knowing just how many are too many... Considering there's no lore that states how common such a thing is.

 

 

The only thing I know of, is that my Jedi redeemed a Sith who went to Typhon and showed up again as a full fledged Jedi. So it has happened at least once. Also the Jedi Console does not seem to be overly concerned about the race or even past of people, considering how any former Sith I've run into.

 

I will simply because I now know it is going to drive someone crazy!

[Sybban]

What lore are you talking about? Have you even read the books? There has never and will never be limitations on what races can do what. Unless they make a force using droid I don't think we have anything to worry about canon-wise

[Cancrizans]

Yes because clearly having Sith defect, which has already happened at least once in this game, is the the same exact thing as what you list above.

 

But yet you go on about other peoples lack of logic.

 

And you guys go on with your lack of reading. A few defectors would never result in the imbalanced number of cross overs we will see on fleets etc.

[Cancrizans]

Yep he is.

 

I think that anything that encourages players to play the opposing faction is fantastic.

 

Just Irks me when someone uses canon as a defense then when it is used to prove them wrong they chose not to believe in it!

 

I would like to know how much stuff has to be approved by Lucas Arts and what the procedure for that is.

 

But actually, no I'm not. The bottom line is, if you think the number of Purebloods we are going to see playing Republic side would ever happen in a realistic situation, I have a nice statue in the Hudson River you might be interested in purchasing.

 

Sorry, your argument from exceptional cases simply doesn't work, because it fails to connect with reality at all. So I am afraid it is people ignoring that fact and falling back on that kind of argument who are out of luck, unless you just throw rationality out the window to favor your pet position of course.

[Derfmiolleh]

Things are conflicting with my interpretation of the lore but BW has given us options. As much as I don't like change I do like having options in the game.

[K_Schrimer]

With all the other issues in this game, and the current state of its endgame, you are worried about seeing different species opening for alts that are 'family' of your main?

 

No Sith ever sired a Jedi, or vice versa, in Starwars right? (sarcasim)

 

The whole canon argument is moot.... This is a LA sanctioned and licensed product (ie. it IS canon).

[IronJelly]

My Generic suggestion still stands as a reasonable way to handle this. Wish BW would read it.

[Quistes]

Sorry OP your opinions aside, the books all have cases were a race thought to be Empire or Republic defects. There are some Pure blood Sith that defected and of course there are some Chiss, which btw in this time period were no where near as "equal" to humans or pure bloods.

 

Also: Consider for a second that the Empire is massive and not always fair to its citizens, and or Sith are very cunning, training to be a Jedi gives them some insight into their enemy.

 

I do hear what you are saying, I do partially agree, but mostly because I always roll a human and I'm not going to get much out of this feature.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Quistes

[lentWolf]

But actually, no I'm not. The bottom line is, if you think the number of Purebloods we are going to see playing Republic side would ever happen in a realistic situation, I have a nice statue in the Hudson River you might be interested in purchasing.

 

Sorry, your argument from exceptional cases simply doesn't work, because it fails to connect with reality at all. So I am afraid it is people ignoring that fact and falling back on that kind of argument who are out of luck, unless you just throw rationality out the window to favor your pet position of course.

 

 

Right - so, are we talking lore here, or real life? "would ever happen in a realistic situation" ... ermmm, nothing about Star Wars *is* real in our present society. If you want to compare this to a realistic situation, which in all honesty is naive considering this is a game based on something that wasn't real in the first place, then here we go:

 

I'm not an expert, but from what I know, demographics tend to shift often in the real world. Look at racial differences/population percentages now in the USA from what they were 100 years ago. Human reproduction, especially among and between different races, has a way of shifting demographics. So do occupations, technology, and natural causes.

 

So, why then, is it so outside of logic to assume that you *couldn't* have Chiss or other races on the Imperial side? You admitted previously that, within your limited reasoning, defectors could happen. So, then, why couldn't the defectors reproduce or influence others to defect?

 

People like to do things in groups. So, if one Chiss becomes Republic, his family becomes more likely to convert. Their friends become more likely, and their friends' friends become more likely.

 

Therefore, it's completely possible that you could see a large influx of non-standard Republic races playing on the Republic side - and it would easily remain within SW lore. It may not be all at once, like might happen immediately following 1.2 - but that's where we change from the scope of real life to the scope of a video game.

 

In real life, being white doesn't mean I'll make a certain decision. Neither does being black, or any other race. Since SW lore is modeled after real life society, we can surmise that being a certain race in SW doesn't require you to make a certain decision.

Edited March 9, 2012 by lentWolf

[myriadical]

I want Jawa Jedi

 

being Ithorian might be cool, but I think I'd get bored of that pretty quick.

 

[Cancrizans]

Right - so, are we talking lore here, or real life? "would ever happen in a realistic situation" ... ermmm, nothing about Star Wars *is* real in our present society. If you want to compare this to a realistic situation, which in all honesty is naive considering this is a game based on something that wasn't real in the first place, then here we go:

 

I'm not an expert, but from what I know, demographics tend to shift often in the real world. Look at racial differences/population percentages now in the USA from what they were 100 years ago. Human reproduction, especially among and between different races, has a way of shifting demographics. So do occupations, technology, and natural causes.

 

So, why then, is it so outside of logic to assume that you *couldn't* have Chiss or other races on the Imperial side? You admitted previously that, within your limited reasoning, defectors could happen. So, then, why couldn't the defectors reproduce or influence others to defect?

 

People like to do things in groups. So, if one Chiss becomes Republic, his family becomes more likely to convert. Their friends become more likely, and their friends' friends become more likely.

 

Therefore, it's completely possible that you could see a large influx of non-standard Republic races playing on the Republic side - and it would easily remain within SW lore. It may not be all at once, like might happen immediately following 1.2 - but that's where we change from the scope of real life to the scope of a video game.

 

In real life, being white doesn't mean I'll make a certain decision. Neither does being black, or any other race. Since SW lore is modeled after real life society, we can surmise that being a certain race in SW doesn't require you to make a certain decision.

 

It is quite simple, really. Of course they could reproduce...but the more numerous races in a faction would be reproducing also. There is no way...and when I said "realistic" I was simply referring to the fact that Star Wars, like any fantasy world, does follow many of the norms we observe in our own societies and environments...that it would be even remotely possible that these cross overs could out breed the races established in either faction's populations to the point that what we will no doubt see in game would make any sense.