Bioware, what are you thinking?

[RuQu]

RuQu, I am honored that you took the time to respond in such thoughtful detail to my arguments in this thread. I agree that you have a solid way of looking at the situation, though I still see the actual reasoning concerning how so many of this realistically small number of defectors could end up mostly at the fleet(and also in the Republic play areas) as requiring both a willingness to accept the patch changes at face value, and a preference for them. I don't think, looking at the information from a strictly rational perspective, one would be willing to make so many leaps of faith to justify what is definitely not the norm in such a situation.

 

I think the most valid response is(and tbh I hope you guys are right) the one stating that I am most likely way off about how many of these cross overs we will be seeing in the months after the patch hits. If this is the case, rest assured that I will be happy with the outcome and that my concerns were not realistic. My intent was to post my concerns, and see what people thought about them. I did this because I really feel that these changes could have a very negative effect on the game. Maybe a lot of people don't care about this kind of thing, but I do. This is a new game, and I hate to see the developers making such silly and potentially destructive compromises so early on, when there are so many other paths they could have taken.

 

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to provide me with some insight into how one might look at the changes in a positive light.

 

You're welcome.

 

I think it is easy to see these things from out own point of view and think 'why the hell would they do that?' while forgetting that such a large game has to appeal to lots of people.

 

As I said, I don't RP. Never have. But this Legacy system is a great tool designed to support some extremely in-depth RP. It was presented by their lead RP guy, and preceded the RP panel.

 

You also have to accept that difficulty of an MMO where everyone is the hero of their own story.

 

When you see a group of Pureblood Sith on Carrick Station, instead of getting angry, try asking "What's that story?" Maybe the player just thought it was funny to make a Pureblood Jedi (which might offend you). Maybe they have an intricate backstory where their Jedi Consular main turned him from the dark-side after defeating him in battle and sparing him. You don't have to ask, they don't have to tell you, but if this is the sort of thing that will bother you, just ask yourself that question.

 

This happens in the real world. I've been in foreign countries and I meet someone who's been living there for years but is from my country. There is always a story of how they came to be out of place. Sometimes interesting, sometimes mundane, but a story nonetheless. Sometimes I ask, sometimes I just wonder what the story was and move on, never finding out.

 

Don't let the lore be such a burden that it takes the wonder out of the game. There are trillions of beings in the Galaxy. Some of them have terribly boring lives, and the game engine chooses not to render them on low-end machines (luckily not a risk for boring people IRL). It it helps, imagine the station is crowded with plenty of faceless masses, and you only see the interesting people standing out...in that case of course you will see a Pureblood on Carrick, just like you would see the only 6'5" black man in Tokyo.

 

I understand that these games and their lore are important to people, but sometimes we can take that so seriously that it actually decreases the fun instead of increasing it.

[RuQu]

If you want me to address your post point by point, I will. I thought I'd just sum up my feelings as I appreciate your literate and well thought out post, but personally don't find the arguments substantial enough to change my point of view.

 

Though I do accept them as a good way to view the changes, if you are in favor of them.

 

It's not necessary. I'm known for walls of text, and I've gotten fairly efficient at creating them.

 

I think the point was made, even if we don't agree afterwards. Arguments don't have to end with consensus so long as communication happens.

 

I've heard your points (there will be too many, its contrary to lore to have so many, it will decrease your immersion). You've heard mine (its about individual story, there can be multiple reasons besides defection, only the important people are visible so the numbers are skewed, just have fun with it, and use this tool to increase your immersion in your own story, regardless of other people's use). We didn't convince each other, but that's fine.

[Kodosong]

What I would rather see as a bonus for hitting for 50 is what EQ2 does and gives a 10% xp bonus on alts up to a max of 30%. Would make grinding alts a lot easier. I have 4 imperials at the moment and running the same stuff over and over is a bit of a grind.

 

This would be better than the perceived lore breaking of using a class on any faction. Whilst I think the OP is over-exaggerating the imbalance and lore breaking aspects of the game the only impact on the game is that it eases the grind, and possibly makes more level 50's for all of those that seem to find it so hard to get WZ or HM FP runs.

[Artoon]

To me this seems like the "we want to have more race/class combinations without actually adding more playable races" announcement.

 

That Sith race, which I don't like, and don't have on any of my characters, I can still *not* play on even *more* of my characters. Whoop!

 

When can I be a Jawa or a Wookie or that little Snaggletooth guy or...well it's the Star Wars universe there are only about 098347093875357 races they could code in eventually. This current change gives you the illusion of choice without actually coding in more races at this time.

 

Those classic characters like Hammerhead, Bossk, Greedo...but what we have instead is "green human" walking around or "blue human" walking around etc.

[RuQu]

What I would rather see as a bonus for hitting for 50 is what EQ2 does and gives a 10% xp bonus on alts up to a max of 30%. Would make grinding alts a lot easier. I have 4 imperials at the moment and running the same stuff over and over is a bit of a grind.

 

This would be better than the perceived lore breaking of using a class on any faction. Whilst I think the OP is over-exaggerating the imbalance and lore breaking aspects of the game the only impact on the game is that it eases the grind, and possibly makes more level 50's for all of those that seem to find it so hard to get WZ or HM FP runs.

 

They have said you can unlock this character by character, customizing their style.

 

If you want to play a PvP only alt, you can give it a boost to PvP XP. Or you can give one a quest-XP boost. It will let you tailor your alting to your style and your story for each character.

[LordRaeth]

None of the current races are actually that appealing as other classes imo, I'd rather wait till they introduce entirely new races than wasting time on leveling alts just so I can have a different coloured human.

[Bigbrad]

Star Wars Lore is dead or dying, A Lightside jedi can now use a red crystal. hey give my sage some lightning or heck how about force choke for bounty hunters.

 

 

loosing intrest day by day each patch worse and worse

[ACLucius]

Allowing that there will always be a percentage of a race that does not follow the normal political or ideological affiliations the majority holds...that is NOT what will be represented in the game if this change goes through. What we WILL see is an INORDINATE and UNBELIEVABLY large number of cross faction races, MUCH larger than anything that could EVER be explained by the idea that there will always be some who change sides.

 

That argument holds no water.

 

Wrong, it does. If you really want to be technical about this game being looked to for lore, then technically there can only be a maximum of four of any race that can switch. Seeing as there are only four stories for each side, that means a maximum of four purebloods could have switched sides in a noticeable way. At this point, if you are going to debate about this game being looked to for lore, every class should have a specific race and gender associated with it.

 

You are forgetting that every single trooper you see, whether commando or vanguard, male or female, Mirialan or Cyborg, is the same exact person according to lore. We did not have fifty thousand different newbies joining Havoc squad. Darth Baras did not have fifty thousand different apprentices who just happened to kill the same people and take on the same Jaesa. Fifty thousand different smugglers didnt have their ship stolen by the same exact guy and go through all the steps of getting back at him.

 

No, your argument against this holds no water. If you are going to bring lore into this, it doesn't work. If you aren't going to bring lore in, then this game does not follow it and you still cannot make an argument against it.

[Canis_Anubis]

This is a HORRIBLE idea. It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore.

 

No, Episodes 1-3 made a total mockery of Star Wars lore.

 

Don't like where Bioware is taking it? My advice is to raise several million dollars to outbid them on the license when it's up for renewal with Lucasfilm. In the meantime, your opinion has been noted and ignored.

[RuQu]

No, Episodes 1-3 made a total mockery of Star Wars lore.

 

.

 

I don't understand....was there something before A New Hope? I always just thought starting with Chapter 4 was a literary device.

[Serbegorn]

It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore...

 

ROFLMAOSTC

 

You mean the same lore that Lucas craps on every time he get's another greedy idea? Give me a break.

[Cancrizans]

It's not necessary. I'm known for walls of text, and I've gotten fairly efficient at creating them.

 

I think the point was made, even if we don't agree afterwards. Arguments don't have to end with consensus so long as communication happens.

 

I've heard your points (there will be too many, its contrary to lore to have so many, it will decrease your immersion). You've heard mine (its about individual story, there can be multiple reasons besides defection, only the important people are visible so the numbers are skewed, just have fun with it, and use this tool to increase your immersion in your own story, regardless of other people's use). We didn't convince each other, but that's fine.

 

Well said, if more people shared this attitude we might actually form a community here.

[Cancrizans]

Wrong, it does. If you really want to be technical about this game being looked to for lore, then technically there can only be a maximum of four of any race that can switch. Seeing as there are only four stories for each side, that means a maximum of four purebloods could have switched sides in a noticeable way. At this point, if you are going to debate about this game being looked to for lore, every class should have a specific race and gender associated with it.

 

You are forgetting that every single trooper you see, whether commando or vanguard, male or female, Mirialan or Cyborg, is the same exact person according to lore. We did not have fifty thousand different newbies joining Havoc squad. Darth Baras did not have fifty thousand different apprentices who just happened to kill the same people and take on the same Jaesa. Fifty thousand different smugglers didnt have their ship stolen by the same exact guy and go through all the steps of getting back at him.

 

No, your argument against this holds no water. If you are going to bring lore into this, it doesn't work. If you aren't going to bring lore in, then this game does not follow it and you still cannot make an argument against it.

 

 

I think you have a severe misunderstanding of the difference between lore and the story aspect of this game. As do many people who have blindly posted similar arguments.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Cancrizans

[Cancrizans]

Wrong, it does. If you really want to be technical about this game being looked to for lore, then technically there can only be a maximum of four of any race that can switch. Seeing as there are only four stories for each side, that means a maximum of four purebloods could have switched sides in a noticeable way. At this point, if you are going to debate about this game being looked to for lore, every class should have a specific race and gender associated with it.

 

You are forgetting that every single trooper you see, whether commando or vanguard, male or female, Mirialan or Cyborg, is the same exact person according to lore. We did not have fifty thousand different newbies joining Havoc squad. Darth Baras did not have fifty thousand different apprentices who just happened to kill the same people and take on the same Jaesa. Fifty thousand different smugglers didnt have their ship stolen by the same exact guy and go through all the steps of getting back at him.

 

No, your argument against this holds no water. If you are going to bring lore into this, it doesn't work. If you aren't going to bring lore in, then this game does not follow it and you still cannot make an argument against it.

 

 

Quoting this again for a simple reason. I am actually very surprised that a lot of people are looking at the game from this point of view. I am not trying to be antagonistic concerning this, I am just curious.

 

Do most of the people who hold this point of view have the majority of their experience in single player RPGs? Otherwise I don't quite understand how to them the story element of this game supersedes the fact that it is an MMO to such a large degree.

 

I have always enjoyed single player RPGs...but I have always been cognizant of the fact that most of the stuff that works in that genre does because there is a single player involved. It would never occur to me to completely transplant that yardstick into an MMO like this simply because there is a story element.

 

I mean...if the single player dynamic is THAT important to you, why not just keep playing single player RPGs? Surely you don't think Bioware made SWTOR a multiplayer game just for kicks?

 

In an MMO, the primary reality is the interaction between the character you create and the characters others create. To ask that this be a situation where we all have our own story and just should ignore every other character around us, via a monumental suspension of disbelief to me sounds completely insane.

 

I can't really grasp this way of thinking, though I suspect it is more motivated by convenience than anything else(i.e. someone is inclined to want these changes and is simply building a case around their own opinion rather than looking at it objectively).

Edited March 7, 2012 by Cancrizans

[Greyshadow]

I might be mistaken, but I don't believe the Chiss are particularly "Evil."

 

They are most concerned with protecting their own, and that means siding with whoever is in the best position at the time to preserve the Ascendancy.

 

 

Although I dunno how you would work out a Chiss Trooper offhand, I see no reason why they can't be Jedi or Smugglers.

 

Sith might be a little more complicated, but there are more than a few noble Sith out there.

[TiiRahnedancer]

Lore, canon... our characters' stories in the game are neither. So we make some Pureblood Sith Jedi. The exploits of our Pureblood Sith Marauders are every bit as non-canon.

 

One great thing for me is I can finally roll my Twi'lek BH. I'll just need to get my SI up to 50 now.

 

I wonder if this means we'll have all of the appearance options unlocked for species like Twi'leks and Zabraks if we get them to 50?

[Trolltar]

You are not the IP and Lore police, Lucas Arts is.

 

TO paraphrase William Buckley

 

"I'd rather have the Star Wars IP managed by the first 300 people in the phone book than by the folks at Lucas Arts"

[Xenela]

It makes me really sad that I chose my main's race as human. I have a 50 human Jedi sage, which unlocks....nothing. Every class can already be human. Whoopie....

[ArykSolo]

I don't understand why people are saying this goes against lore. This is an mmoRPG afterall. Create your own lore and story. You're acting like these particular races have no free will. That's like saying "oooo gosh goodness gee little jimmy, you were born a sith pureblood, looks like the only weapon you may ever use in your life is a lightsaber. Better start practicing because there is no way in hell you're going to ever know how to pick up a gun." Saying that chiss and sith pure blood can't join up with the republic makes you a racist....just sayin... Edited March 7, 2012 by ArykSolo

[Deewe]

Are you daft? If he'd like to play a chiss smuggler, he'd be forced to regrind a character (said chiss smuggler).

Quite so.

 

Along the legacy unlocks one has to be a specie change keeping all your characters level gear and so on.

 

Now that would actually be a reward.

[Bielduwyn]

I don't understand why people are saying this goes against lore. This is an mmoRPG afterall. Create your own lore and story. You're acting like these particular races have no free will. That's like saying "oooo gosh goodness gee little jimmy, you were born a sith pureblood, looks like the only weapon you may ever use in your life is a lightsaber. Better start practicing because there is no way in hell you're going to ever know how to pick up a gun." Saying that chiss and sith pure blood can't join up with the republic makes you a racist....just sayin...

 

It's not so much that it goes against the lore as that it goes against all probability, born as a Sith Pureblood into the Sith Empire you will 99.95% likely live and die a Sith. Just because five in ten thousand follow a different path doesn't justify making it an option available to everyone. Simply because more than five in ten thousand will actually do so.

 

And I severely disagree with the idea of making your own lore. You're playing a Star Wars game, why would you want to craft anything but a genuine Star Wars story within a Star Wars game?

 

That's just as idiotic as those dimwits RPing Half-Elves in LotRO even though Half-Elves were so rare that all of them that were born in the entire history of Middle-Earth history were countable on one hand. And each of their lives were carefully documented in the chronicles of Middle-Earth's history. And knowing how much Tolkien cared about his work, well, RPing a half-elf is nothing short of taking a leak on Tolkien's grave. And the thing is, there are countless other fantasy settings where you can perfectly play a Half-Elf so why insist on doing it in LotRO of all places? Actually, no, that's just as idiotic as bringing Drow into LotRO, if you want to play a dark elf, play a game that supports them!

 

If you can't work within the restrictions of the lore you've got no right to be writing to begin with.

[Yowfatto]

SPOILER ALERT******

 

In JK storyline just such an occurrence takes place. If it happens in a story line would it be so bad for actual players to mix it up? Would be pretty cool to be a light side red skinned true blood sith.

[Yowfatto]

I don't understand why people are saying this goes against lore. This is an mmoRPG afterall. Create your own lore and story. You're acting like these particular races have no free will. That's like saying "oooo gosh goodness gee little jimmy, you were born a sith pureblood, looks like the only weapon you may ever use in your life is a lightsaber. Better start practicing because there is no way in hell you're going to ever know how to pick up a gun." Saying that chiss and sith pure blood can't join up with the republic makes you a racist....just sayin...

 

LMAO, gun ban for sith true bloods.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Yowfatto

[Kaze-Yama]

I wish they gave me togruta instead of crappy miraluka sith. I guess playing twilek sith warrior is cool though. How does twilek BH work though? I thought they couldn't fix the clipping issues? If they did fix clipping issues then why can't they introduce new species? I know the game has only been out a few months but the species selection is still one of my major complaints about the game. This legacy change does a little to alleviate that but only a very small amount.

[TKMaster]

You have no idea idea what you're talking about. There's nothing in any Star Wars lore that says members of a race can't belong to a different society.

 

No there isnt...but they are one in millions....not one in tens like you'll end up seeing.

 

PPL that agree with these changes are the same ones that argue that since Han clumsily cut open a taun-taun with a lightsaber smugglers should be able to use them.

 

There are always oddities and exeptions but they a few and far far far far far far between.