Gut vs Incendiary Round for PvP

[ururururu]

storm > hold the line

[Kesrik]

storm > hold the line

 

It's really not. HtL allows you to run out of a bad position, whereas storm can only put you into a bad position.

[ceelaniri]

It's really not. HtL allows you to run out of a bad position, whereas storm can only put you into a bad position.

 

provided there is one around.

[ezrafetch]

The */2*/18 build gives up a tremendous amount to get HIB resets that it has no business getting with 21 points in Tactics. It loses significant pressure and ammo regeneration by dropping HEC for Plasma Cell. It picks up several weaker CDR talents to avoid the HEC talents. When you run through the spec from a cost / benefit perspective, it really falls apart because it reaches for two non-synergistic talents- Hold the Line and Ionic Accelerator. Both deep Assault and deep Tactics have superior burst. Assault has a range advantage that negates the need for Hold the Line. Tactics gets Hold the Line and superior pressure. Both have superior survivability as Assault gets ranged and Reflexive Shield and Tactics gets Shock Absorbers. Both get additional abilities that play to the strenghts of the specs with Fire Pulse and Assault Plastique. This build has the same playstyle of a deep Tactics build but is weaker in virtually every phase of PvP than a deep Tactics build. That being said, this build does have one thing that it does better than any Trooper build and arguably any other build of any other class- melee kiting. Between Sweltering Heat and Hold the Line, it is absolutely trivial to kite melee classes. However, this isn't really a good advantage to have in the overwhelming majority of PvP encounters, and Assault does it pretty well already.

 

How is the ability to get HiB resets a major loss? It gives you significant burst on top of your pressuring. You can get auto-crits on your reset HiBs. I think it works quite well. And it's not totally different from Parakeet builds as both get Ionic Accelerator. One can just put a lot more DPS out since it runs Plasma and goes into Tactics and the other is much tankier with Ion Cell. And, Parakeet wastes 3 points because it runs Ion Cell, while the Tactics/Assault hybrids don't waste them. I fail to see what the problem is.

 

It's also not really the kiting thing. And I'm not really trying to compare Tactics/Assault hybrids with pure Assault. I'm just arguing that Hold the Line and Tactics hybrids are viable specs. I prefer pure Assault myself, as I said earlier.

 

Also, what you give up in the top tiers of Tactics are a bunch of pretty subpar talents for the burst that you get from Assault. It's a more-than-viable tradeoff. I think in the majority of situations, including pugging, the hybrid builds give you a bigger payoff.

 

You lose:

-An ability that only really has efficiency as its hallmark, with a long cooldown.

-Pulse Generator, which can only really be used in AoE scenarios, which come up but, as I would argue, are not worth speccing for.

-Shock Absorbers. This is a solid PvP ability, and really the only huge loss from not going full Tactics. But in exchange, you get more than enough to compensate.

-The "synergies" with HEC. Some of which are fine, some of which aren't really that useful.

-Slightly stronger melee presence.

 

You gain:

-Resets on HiB procs. Combined with Combat Tactics, this opens up the possibility of free, auto-crit HiBs.

-The resulting ammo regen from the Ionic Accelerator mechanic. It's not necessarily as good as 1 cell/6s, but considering everything else you get, it's great. Especially since you can come out on top in burst scenarios with Ionic Accelerator when you can't with HEC+Cell Generator.

-You also get free Stockstrikes on occasion with this build, preserving ammo.

-You get insane amounts of utility with the talents you can take in in the early-mid tiers of the Pyrotech and Tactics tree. 67% interrupt uptime, reduced CD on Grapple, hard stun, stealth scan. These are all things that change matchups. I don't think I can over-stress how awesome 67% interrupt uptime, reduced Grapple and Stealth Scan CDs are. Better interrupt uptime allows you to dominate healers and casters. Reduced Stealth Scan CD means you can stomp stealth classes. Reduced Grapple CD means you can play the objectives more often. And it's never a bad idea to take the reduced stun CD. One can easily take the 2%DR, but I'd take the utility any day.

-The ability to initiate at range, and to return to range if you need to. While it's not the same as pure Assault who can function better at range, the flexibility in being able to disengage with Tactics/Assault hybrids can mean quite a lot when pure Tactics doesn't necessarily get that luxury.

-Still maintain Hold the Line as an excellent offensive, defensive, and utility/objective tool.

 

 

Win occurs in #2 as the Sorc improperly leads with a stun. Additionally, you need to use Hold the Line before Overload in #3.

 

You have to use Hold the Line before the Overload. It's going to put up a very recognizable graphic. If the Sorc uses Overload with that graphic up, he's a bad Sorc. He's going to stun you, get range, then Overload you when Hold the Line is down. You can trinket out, but at best in this situation, it's going to get you marginally better uptime and defintiely not a full 8 seconds.

 

If you get the jump on the Sorc and, in the course of the battle, you force him into burning his stun, of course you should usually win (though if you don't play right you don't get the kill). I left out the "DPS until you force him to burn his stun first" part because that's a given. No reasonable player burns their stun upon first sight...that's just silly. But we're talking about maintaining uptime on the opponent in spite of their CC, which is what Hold the Line accomplishes beautifully. And when I say "immunize," that naturally implies that you use Hold the Line before Overload, not afterwards. You can't be retroactively "immune" to something you've already been hit by. The language I used makes the use of Hold the Line in that scenario abundantly clear. And it's obvious that you can't randomly use Hold the Line before the opponent decides to use Overload, you have to activate it as soon as they start their jump animation. Using it before and giving your hand away is just an indicator of bad play on the Vanguard's part.

 

Agreed. It would definitely need to be tweaked. It could be done with increasing the CD, decreasing the duration, a combination of both, or something in a different direction (IE short stun immunity).

 

I honestly think it should stay as it is. because no class should get an extra stun breaker outside of their trinket.

 

But, I think this discussion here isn't really addressing Gut vs. Incendiary Round anymore. And it seems that we all generally agree that if you stick more than 14 points in Tactics, you're probably picking up Hold the Line. Everyone can see both sides and figure it out for themselves, since the difference between all the Vanguard specs is almost all playstyle preference, as, unlike many of the other ACs, Vanguard was well-designed.

Edited March 2, 2012 by ezrafetch

[Karandor]

It's really not. HtL allows you to run out of a bad position, whereas storm can only put you into a bad position.

 

Considering that VGs have the highest damage reduction in the game, being in melee is not a bad position.

 

 

Also if you don't know how to use it to escape a melee train then you need to learn to be more creative.

[ceelaniri]

Considering that VGs have the highest damage reduction in the game, being in melee is not a bad position.

 

 

Also if you don't know how to use it to escape a melee train then you need to learn to be more creative.

 

well here is my noob question:

 

how do you use storm to jump somewhere else if engaged in 1vs1 and there is no one around?

 

can you jump on allies too or only enemies?

[origional]

^

 

One of the things a lot of people don't realize about Assault (and one of the reasons they have such horrible survivability) is that it is very effective at range. Shield and Tactics really require you to operate in a 0-10m range..

 

I'm shield spec and I rarely get in the 0-10m range by choice. The only time is either defending an objective and using storm and stock trike for a killing blow. Its not about killing its about harrasment and control.

[Coramac]

How is the ability to get HiB resets a major loss? It gives you significant burst on top of your pressuring. You can get auto-crits on your reset HiBs. I think it works quite well. And it's not totally different from Parakeet builds as both get Ionic Accelerator. One can just put a lot more DPS out since it runs Plasma and goes into Tactics and the other is much tankier with Ion Cell. And, Parakeet wastes 3 points because it runs Ion Cell, while the Tactics/Assault hybrids don't waste them. I fail to see what the problem is.

 

It's very different from the Parakeet builds. Bird build is a tank / support build that is trying to add more damage. 18 points in Assault does that for that build. It doesn't do it for a 21 point Tactics build.

 

It's also not really the kiting thing. And I'm not really trying to compare Tactics/Assault hybrids with pure Assault. I'm just arguing that Hold the Line and Tactics hybrids are viable specs. I prefer pure Assault myself, as I said earlier.

 

Nor am I. I'm comparing hybrid tactics to everything else. Viable? Sure. Just because something is worse than the alternatives doesn't mean it isn't viable.

 

Also, what you give up in the top tiers of Tactics are a bunch of pretty subpar talents for the burst that you get from Assault. It's a more-than-viable tradeoff. I think in the majority of situations, including pugging, the hybrid builds give you a bigger payoff.

 

... The top tier of Tactics is FAR from subpar.

 

You lose:

-An ability that only really has efficiency as its hallmark, with a long cooldown.

-Pulse Generator, which can only really be used in AoE scenarios, which come up but, as I would argue, are not worth speccing for.

-Shock Absorbers. This is a solid PvP ability, and really the only huge loss from not going full Tactics. But in exchange, you get more than enough to compensate.

-The "synergies" with HEC. Some of which are fine, some of which aren't really that useful.

-Slightly stronger melee presence.

 

Fire Pulse doesn't have "efficiency as its hallmark." Fire Pulse is an exceptional ability. It's tech and therefore better than ranged in numerous situations. It ignore armor. It automatically procs Battering Ram. It hits very hard with delayed damage allowing for some very legitimate burst. Pulse Generator is an exceptional niche ability. You also lose and excellent crit talent. Increased crit damage on Ion Cell with all the buffs it gets in the Tactics tree is exceptional.

 

You gain:

-Resets on HiB procs. Combined with Combat Tactics, this opens up the possibility of free, auto-crit HiBs.

That hit for less than a Fire Pulse crit. Fire Pulse gives you FAR superior control over burst and deep tactics gives you better burst with the addition of Fire Pulse, the crit damage, and very large boost to Ion Pulse.

-The resulting ammo regen from the Ionic Accelerator mechanic. It's not necessarily as good as 1 cell/6s, but considering everything else you get, it's great. Especially since you can come out on top in burst scenarios with Ionic Accelerator when you can't with HEC+Cell Generator.

You don't come out on top in burst scenarios with Ionic Accelerator. Fire Pulse effectively counts as an auto-proc but better. The ammo regen on resets and HFB is pretty terrible. Deep Tactics build running HEC blows it out of the water.

-You also get free Stockstrikes on occasion with this build, preserving ammo.

You can't list this as a gain when it's a loss due to the lack of Fire Pulse...

-You get insane amounts of utility with the talents you can take in in the early-mid tiers of the Pyrotech and Tactics tree. 67% interrupt uptime, reduced CD on Grapple, hard stun, stealth scan. These are all things that change matchups. I don't think I can over-stress how awesome 67% interrupt uptime, reduced Grapple and Stealth Scan CDs are. Better interrupt uptime allows you to dominate healers and casters. Reduced Stealth Scan CD means you can stomp stealth classes. Reduced Grapple CD means you can play the objectives more often. And it's never a bad idea to take the reduced stun CD. One can easily take the 2%DR, but I'd take the utility any day.

Interupts don't have "uptime." This word choice does not make sense nor does your use of 67%. This number comes from 6 being 2/3 of 8. By this logic, an untalented Riot Strike has a 100% "uptime." You can use 33% sooner. Nice? Yes. Awesome to the point of inability to describe? No. Neither are any of the other ones you mention. All of which can be picked easily in a deep Tactics build. Any one of which can easily be picked in an Assault build.

-The ability to initiate at range, and to return to range if you need to. While it's not the same as pure Assault who can function better at range, the flexibility in being able to disengage with Tactics/Assault hybrids can mean quite a lot when pure Tactics doesn't necessarily get that luxury.

Deep Tactics initiates at range at about the same level as a Tactics hybrid. Only Assault has any legitimate range. You don't have Rain of Fire. You don't have a strong HIB. You don't have Assault Plastique. You don't have near the chance of procing Plasma Cell. The only advantage you have here is the ability to ensure a single HIB usage through Incendiary Round. If someone else has engaged the target and make HIB usable, deep Tactics's HIB will hit harder if they have taken Steely Resolve.

-Still maintain Hold the Line as an excellent offensive, defensive, and utility/objective tool.

Deep Tactics has this.

 

The problem with Hybrid Tactics is simply that deep Tactics does everthing it does better.

 

If you get the jump on the Sorc and, in the course of the battle, you force him into burning his stun, of course you should usually win (though if you don't play right you don't get the kill). I left out the "DPS until you force him to burn his stun first" part because that's a given.

 

So you're pressuring? Deep Tactics does this much better.

 

No reasonable player burns their stun upon first sight...that's just silly. But we're talking about maintaining uptime on the opponent in spite of their CC, which is what Hold the Line accomplishes beautifully. And when I say "immunize," that naturally implies that you use Hold the Line before Overload, not afterwards. You can't be retroactively "immune" to something you've already been hit by. The language I used makes the use of Hold the Line in that scenario abundantly clear. And it's obvious that you can't randomly use Hold the Line before the opponent decides to use Overload, you have to activate it as soon as they start their jump animation. Using it before and giving your hand away is just an indicator of bad play on the Vanguard's part.

 

I actually was unaware it worked this way. I'll have to test it. I thought effects and damage were done on activation as is pretty typical for most games.

 

I honestly think it should stay as it is. because no class should get an extra stun breaker outside of their trinket.

 

I didn't say to make it break a stun.

 

I'm shield spec and I rarely get in the 0-10m range by choice. The only time is either defending an objective and using storm and stock trike for a killing blow. Its not about killing its about harrasment and control.

 

... You do realize you aren't really harassing anyone? Granted, Shield is not as melee intensive as Tactics, but you do need to make sure you are getting in Stock Strikes. Also, from another thread it looks like you're deep Shield. It's a really bad build for PvP due to how evasion and shielding are handled; tech and force completely ignore them. It makes for a lot of inefficiently used talent points. You'd probably benefit a good bit from using the Combat Tech set. Or if you really want Supercommando, replace the mods with DPS ones.

[hotfuss]

Damn i forgot to say that as far as I am concerned I made the comparison by always keeping in mind that I want at least 21 points in Shield, I cant imagine a world without Storm, mostly because I love Hutball.

 

So I would never have the option of going really deep tactics, hence the comparison of snatching either Gut or Incendiary Round.

 

Also note that for me 21-2-18 cells are NEVER EVER an issue. EVER. (in pvp)

[Coramac]

Damn i forgot to say that as far as I am concerned I made the comparison by always keeping in mind that I want at least 21 points in Shield, I cant imagine a world without Storm, mostly because I love Hutball.

 

So I would never have the option of going really deep tactics, hence the comparison of snatching either Gut or Incendiary Round.

 

Also note that for me 21-2-18 cells are NEVER EVER an issue. EVER. (in pvp)

 

The Ironfist build picks it up because it isn't leaning towards damage as much. It breaks 21 points in Shield and runs Ion Cell. These two factors basically eliminate the possibility of going into Assault. It also goes into Tactics largely to get Power Armor. The Shield tree is very difficult to go deep into for PvP due to the evasion mechanics. Picking up a 15 second DoT for interupts on caps is the primary benefit it brings to the build and that goes away in the next patch. It's still not a bad talent to get for the build as it's basically already there and won't get much benefit out of the other trees. Unless you put more points into Shield, you're probably going to want to stick with Incendiary Round and Ionic Accelerator.

[Raggok]

I actually was unaware it worked this way. I'll have to test it. I thought effects and damage were done on activation as is pretty typical for most games.

 

Lots of abilities, as you mentioned yourself, have a delayed effect or damage.

 

If you HTL right as they jump you can immune the knockback (it's in one of my movies, don't remember which). It's also extremely valuable when a marauder or juggernaut is leaping to you if you pop HTL as they are in the leap animation.

 

BTW, my current build doesn't have HTL in it but I still recognize it as an outstanding ability.

 

As far as the DoTs go, I found that having three DoTs rolling puts out some pretty damn good pressure. Plasma cell, gut, and incendiary round with the tactics/assault hybrid. But again, DoTs are about to be devalued in terms of winning objectives in WZs.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Raggok

[ezrafetch]

Fire Pulse doesn't have "efficiency as its hallmark." Fire Pulse is an exceptional ability. It's tech and therefore better than ranged in numerous situations. It ignore armor. It automatically procs Battering Ram. It hits very hard with delayed damage allowing for some very legitimate burst. Pulse Generator is an exceptional niche ability. You also lose and excellent crit talent. Increased crit damage on Ion Cell with all the buffs it gets in the Tactics tree is exceptional.

 

1/22/18s have 30% and 60% ArP on HiB from talents (I'm not sure if they add or are multiplicative). Then combined with the base damage, HiB's damage is far, far greater than Fire Pulse. Take a look from the game code:

 

HIB's base damage %: 0.19

HIB's Weapon Amount Modifier %: 0.27

HIB's Power Coefficient: 1.9

Fire Pulse's base damage %: 0.129-0.189

Fire Pulse's Weapon Amount Modifier %: 0%

Fire Pulse's Power Coefficient: 1.59.

 

Clearly, the base damage is much higher, the Power coefficient is much higher. Fire Pulse clearly lacks in comparison to HIB. Then, when you factor in resets, damage dealt by 3-4 HiBs (2 of which likely crit when geared) in the span of 1 long Fire Pulse CD > 1 Fire Pulse + 1 HiB. Sure, it's not nearly as simple as that since you also have to factor in the other abilities over the rotation, but a multitude of crit'd HiBs will far outstrip 1 Fire Pulse, plus a couple of perhaps critting Ion Pulses, which have very low base damage anyways.

 

Fire Pulse gives you FAR superior control over burst and deep tactics gives you better burst with the addition of Fire Pulse, the crit damage, and very large boost to Ion Pulse.

 

Yes, Tactics gives you slightly better "control" over burst, but your overall burst is far less than what you'd get under full Tactics.

 

You don't come out on top in burst scenarios with Ionic Accelerator. Fire Pulse effectively counts as an auto-proc but better. The ammo regen on resets and HFB is pretty terrible. Deep Tactics build running HEC blows it out of the water.

 

Let's take an approximate 15s period of combat, which is probably how long most burst scenarios last: Assault can get 3-4 procs of Ionic Accelerator, which means three-four ammo regenerated. Over that duration, HEC builds regenerate two to three. Which has "worse" regen mechanics, again? Yes, you can get shafted on Ionic Accelerator procs, but the payoff is far better than HEC builds, all things considered.

 

You can't list this as a gain when it's a loss due to the lack of Fire Pulse...

You still get 30% chance on Ion Pulse. It's not a strict gain since obviously Fire Pulse has a 100% chance to proc (something which deep Tactics can use), but in reality even if you use Ion Pulse four times in 15s (not unimaginable by any means), you're getting the proc for a free Stockstrike on average 75% of the time, which is still pretty good. It was something that was worth mentioning, at the very least.

 

Interupts don't have "uptime." This word choice does not make sense nor does your use of 67%. This number comes from 6 being 2/3 of 8. By this logic, an untalented Riot Strike has a 100% "uptime." You can use 33% sooner. Nice? Yes. Awesome to the point of inability to describe? No. Neither are any of the other ones you mention. All of which can be picked easily in a deep Tactics build. Any one of which can easily be picked in an Assault build.

 

Please please read the interrupt tooltip: "Interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds." The lockout duration is the uptime. 4s lockout over 8s cooldown = 50% uptime untalented. 4s lockout over 6s cooldown = ~67% uptime. If you don't understand the value of maximizing your interrupt uptime, then it makes fighting casters and healers so much harder when it doesn't need to be. You'd have to give up all your "precious HEC-synergy" talents to get the various utility I mention, so I don't see how your deep Tactics build can pick them up without losing what you think makes pure Tactics better than a hybrid. Pure Assault builds can't pick up the interrupt CDR if they want Assault Plastique, but that's just one of those "can't have it all" things, because Assault needs the burst from Plastique.

 

Also, 6 is 3/4 of 8. Basic math.

 

Deep Tactics initiates at range at about the same level as a Tactics hybrid. Only Assault has any legitimate range. You don't have Rain of Fire. You don't have a strong HIB. You don't have Assault Plastique. You don't have near the chance of procing Plasma Cell. The only advantage you have here is the ability to ensure a single HIB usage through Incendiary Round. If someone else has engaged the target and make HIB usable, deep Tactics's HIB will hit harder if they have taken Steely Resolve.

 

I'm not comparing the ranged capabilities of the hybrid to Assault. Everyone knows full well Assault has the best range because of Assault Plastique. What I am saying, though, is that hybrid Tactics/Assault can begin use range to its advantage, something which deep Tactics can't because it can't get enough HIB casts to hover outside of 10m. And a marginally harder-hitting HIB means nothing when you get HIB resets, meaning you're putting out more damage. And when HIB is far better than Fire Pulse, it really makes it a more clear which is more flexible and powerful. Does Fire Pulse synergize more with some of the talents in Tactics? Sure, but obviously from the discussion I'd give that up in a heartbeat for hybridizing because Tactics/Assault has the flexibility that deep Tactics doesn't while still maintaining a reasonable presence in multiple ranges.

 

We've pretty much exhausted the discussion, as far as I can tell.

Edited March 2, 2012 by ezrafetch

[Blurps]

We'll probably see a lot more "pure" builds after 1.1.5 goes live. Let's hope BW will take another look at the top tiers of Shield and some mechanics in the Tactics tree, almost everyone sporting 25+ in Assault would be really boring. Edited March 2, 2012 by Blurps

[Coramac]

1/22/18s have 30% and 60% ArP on HiB from talents (I'm not sure if they add or are multiplicative). Then combined with the base damage, HiB's damage is far, far greater than Fire Pulse. Take a look from the game code:

 

HIB's base damage %: 0.19

HIB's Weapon Amount Modifier %: 0.27

HIB's Power Coefficient: 1.9

Fire Pulse's base damage %: 0.129-0.189

Fire Pulse's Weapon Amount Modifier %: 0%

Fire Pulse's Power Coefficient: 1.59.

 

On the power coefficients with 80% crit damage, Fire Pulse is 3.69 on a crit in deep Tactics. HIB in hybrid is 3.52. In Assault, it's 4.61 if Reign of Fire is multiplicative which is how I interpret the talents (4.47 otherwise).

 

Clearly, the base damage is much higher, the Power coefficient is much higher. Fire Pulse clearly lacks in comparison to HIB. Then, when you factor in resets, damage dealt by 3-4 HiBs (2 of which likely crit when geared) in the span of 1 long Fire Pulse CD > 1 Fire Pulse + 1 HiB. Sure, it's not nearly as simple as that since you also have to factor in the other abilities over the rotation, but a multitude of crit'd HiBs will far outstrip 1 Fire Pulse, plus a couple of perhaps critting Ion Pulses, which have very low base damage anyways.

 

Ion Pulse crits hard in deep Tactics with HEC. You also clearly did not take into account the buffs that Fire Pulse gets. Also, a lot of players running a deep Tactics build will take Steely Resolve which will increase it's damage overall.

 

Yes, Tactics gives you slightly better "control" over burst, but your overall burst is far less than what you'd get under full Tactics.

 

Slightly, meaing freedom from the RNG? And the problem with your "burst"...

 

Let's take an approximate 15s period of combat, which is probably how long most burst scenarios last:

 

Let's not because 15 seconds is NOT burst. That's 3-4 times a burst period. In a burst period, you are likely to get a HIB reset if you led with it and have Stock Strike up. You might get 2, but that's unlikely. 15 seconds of damage is a pressure period. If you want to look at a 15 second period and include burst, you are looking at a ~10 second pressure period to set up ~5 seconds of burst by getting their health into a kill range.

 

Assault can get 3-4 procs of Ionic Accelerator, which means three-four ammo regenerated. Over that duration, HEC builds regenerate two to three. Which has "worse" regen mechanics, again? Yes, you can get shafted on Ionic Accelerator procs, but the payoff is far better than HEC builds, all things considered.

 

Yea, the sun might not come up tomorrow too. What's your point? If you try to force that many procs, you are going to cripple yourself a majority of the time because you haven't thrown Hammer Shots into the mix and have no legitimate mechanism for ammo recovery outside Recharge Cells which in a Hybrid build is on a 2 minute CD. Deep Tactics with HEC recovers significantly faster and has a much slower drain due to its interaction with ammo mechanics.

 

You still get 30% chance on Ion Pulse. It's not a strict gain since obviously Fire Pulse has a 100% chance to proc (something which deep Tactics can use), but in reality even if you use Ion Pulse four times in 15s (not unimaginable by any means), you're getting the proc for a free Stockstrike on average 75% of the time, which is still pretty good. It was something that was worth mentioning, at the very least.

 

It's not a gain vs. a deep Tactics build and it is listed as a gain.

 

Please please read the interrupt tooltip: "Interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds."

 

Please review other classes' abilities. Thanks in advance.

 

I'm not comparing the ranged capabilities of the hybrid to Assault. Everyone knows full well Assault has the best range because of Assault Plastique.

 

No, Assault gains a huge advantage over the Hybrid build from combination of Assault Plastique, Reign of Fire, Burnout, AND Assault Trooper.

 

What I am saying, though, is that hybrid Tactics/Assault can begin use range to its advantage, something which deep Tactics can't because it can't get enough HIB casts to hover outside of 10m. And a marginally harder-hitting HIB means nothing when you get HIB resets, meaning you're putting out more damage. And when HIB is far better than Fire Pulse, it really makes it a more clear which is more flexible and powerful. Does Fire Pulse synergize more with some of the talents in Tactics? Sure, but obviously from the discussion I'd give that up in a heartbeat for hybridizing because Tactics/Assault has the flexibility that deep Tactics doesn't while still maintaining a reasonable presence in multiple ranges.

 

It's not more range flexible. You have no presence at range. If you think you do, your just wrong. That's all there is to it. Marginal damage is not a ranged presence. Your treating HIB resets as if there's some magical fairy that comes around granting auto resets to Vanguards everywhere.. Sorry, there isn't. Sure, it's good. It's not THAT good.

 

Your right, we have exhausted this. As soon as you talked about 4 resets in a 15 second time frame and 15 second burst, I shouldn't have responded as you clearly are not in tune with the reset.

 

Lots of abilities, as you mentioned yourself, have a delayed effect or damage.

 

I don't know if you have tried Fire Pulse or not. I suspect you haven't as you would definitely understand what I'm talking about if you have. It deals damage basically at the end of the global. HIB has a travel distance delay. Stock Strike doesn't have one. With Fire Pulse, you can Sticky Grenade and time a Fire Pulse followed by another ability and have them all hit at the same time. It basically let's you circumvent it's GCD for burst if you use it correctly. That's why I point it out as an advantage. It's basically the same advantage the grenades have.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Coramac

[Raggok]

I don't know if you have tried Fire Pulse or not. I suspect you haven't as you would definitely understand what I'm talking about if you have. It deals damage basically at the end of the global. HIB has a travel distance delay. Stock Strike doesn't have one. With Fire Pulse, you can Sticky Grenade and time a Fire Pulse followed by another ability and have them all hit at the same time. It basically let's you circumvent it's GCD for burst if you use it correctly. That's why I point it out as an advantage. It's basically the same advantage the grenades have.

 

I've played with Fire Pulse and agree on the delay allowing for burst combos, but I thought your comment was with respect to HTL immuning Sorc knockback after the knockback animation has already started.

 

I was just confirming what the other poster stated.

[ezrafetch]

On the power coefficients with 80% crit damage, Fire Pulse is 3.69 on a crit in deep Tactics. HIB in hybrid is 3.52. In Assault, it's 4.61 if Reign of Fire is multiplicative which is how I interpret the talents (4.47 otherwise).

 

So, Fire Pulse's crit damage is marginally better than High Impact Bolt. But with Tactics dipping into Assault, you get more uses of HIB than you can in the interval of Fire Pulse. Your crit chance for High Impact Bolt will also be much higher than your crit chance for Fire Pulse. Which is my point. Your overall DPS is better.

 

Yea, the sun might not come up tomorrow too. What's your point? If you try to force that many procs, you are going to cripple yourself a majority of the time because you haven't thrown Hammer Shots into the mix and have no legitimate mechanism for ammo recovery outside Recharge Cells which in a Hybrid build is on a 2 minute CD. Deep Tactics with HEC recovers significantly faster and has a much slower drain due to its interaction with ammo mechanics.

 

In an average 15s period, it's rather easy to get 3-4 Ionic Accelerator procs and still remain at a reasonable heat level given the DPS I put out. In the course of 5 Ion Pulses and an "average" of 1.5 Stockstrikes (which all together easily fits in a 15s duration), the probably of NOT triggering at least one Ionic Accelerator is 6%. That's it. It's not exactly inconceivable that the scenario I put forth is more common than you think. And, the more Ionic Accelerator procs you get, the more it works within itself because saving the ammo with Ionic Accelerator procs lends itself into going for more procs.

 

Please review other classes' abilities. Thanks in advance.

 

I don't think you understand the potency of the interrupt, or you don't have the perception to understand why the lockout of even one ability is so important. It only locks down one ability, yes. But it locks down the most important ability they have. You use the interrupt on Dark Infusion, Rapid Scan, Kolto Injection, Tracer Missile, Ambush/Snipe, whatever. They are shut down and are forced into a weaker strategy which lets you dictate and win the fight. You interrupt the ability they need to out-heal you or out-DPS you; the more you lock it out, the easier you win. Quite clearly if you're trying to assume I'm a simpleton and don't understand the skills and tools I have before me, it's not achieving anything. When really the key points of PvP that I assume most people understand are what you don't seem to acknowledge.

 

No, Assault gains a huge advantage over the Hybrid build from combination of Assault Plastique, Reign of Fire, Burnout, AND Assault Trooper.

 

How are Rain of Fire, Burnout, and Assault Trooper not implied when I say "because of Assault Plastique"? You need to take the skills to get there; it's not rocket science.

 

It's not more range flexible. You have no presence at range. If you think you do, your just wrong. That's all there is to it. Marginal damage is not a ranged presence. Your treating HIB resets as if there's some magical fairy that comes around granting auto resets to Vanguards everywhere.. Sorry, there isn't. Sure, it's good. It's not THAT good.

 

I've never said it's a magical fairy. I've just said that hybrid Tactics/Assault works better in more situations than deep Tactics. Which it does.

 

Your right, we have exhausted this. As soon as you talked about 4 resets in a 15 second time frame and 15 second burst, I shouldn't have responded as you clearly are not in tune with the reset.

 

I highly doubt that I'm out of tune with anything, but I'm not going to bother arguing anymore because quite clearly I am no longer as adept as I was back in the day with banging my head against a wall.

[guy_w]

I am playing a Vanguard Deep Assault specc as my main, been 50 for 2 months now and pvp almost all day for several hours. I'd like to think that I know my specc quite well and do more than well in pvp (the only specc that occasionally outdamages/outmedals/has more kills than me are those darn hybrid lightning sorcs - at least on my server).

 

I predict that with the 1.1.5 change deep assault is dead - in terms of competitive play like rated wz's. Why you ask me? Because of the change to dots not preventing caps anymore and because you really only need your 4 medals per match. The specc has almost no group merits in pvp apart from doting up everyone all day long and putting out pressure, but putting out pressure can be achieved with any specc and the other speccs have far more utility to boot.

 

Up until now, DA has been, for me (I pug 99% of the time), the go-to specc to farm medals and to prevent caps. I could solo (with all cd's up) hold off entire imp teams from capping - even when dead and en route for a new round of dots. Guess that is the reason for the dot-change thats about to hit the servers. It was simply overpowered in that regard.

 

As a 1vs1 lover, the specc is more than lackluster. Yes, I've been delusional - as so many others - about the actual procc uptime of ionic accelerator. I see here people claiming to get 4 proccs in a 15second window, but I can count on one hand the number of times that has happened and more than likely the enemy was still standing there with enough health left whilst I was completely ammo starved.

 

Deep assault is all about pressure over time and preventing caps, not really about nuking an enemy down in 15secs. The rng on ionic accelerator is just too unpredictable for it to be a nuke specc.

 

 

As for the actual question about gut or IR for pvp, it all depends on what your specc/playstyle is and you will see what fits in where better. They both have their highs and lows depending which specc you run and what sort of utility/damage you want out of it.

 

 

I wonder what specc will be dominating once 1.1.5 hits, in regard for the coming rated wz's. Iron fist would be my bet i reckon.

 

Anyways, peace out.

[Coramac]

So, Fire Pulse's crit damage is marginally better than High Impact Bolt. But with Tactics dipping into Assault, you get more uses of HIB than you can in the interval of Fire Pulse. Your crit chance for High Impact Bolt will also be much higher than your crit chance for Fire Pulse. Which is my point. Your overall DPS is better.

 

You don't do better DPS. You do more HIB DPS. This is not the same. Deep Tactics makes up for the DPS here elsewhere.

 

In an average 15s period, it's rather easy to get 3-4 Ionic Accelerator procs and still remain at a reasonable heat level given the DPS I put out. In the course of 5 Ion Pulses and an "average" of 1.5 Stockstrikes (which all together easily fits in a 15s duration), the probably of NOT triggering at least one Ionic Accelerator is 6%. That's it. It's not exactly inconceivable that the scenario I put forth is more common than you think. And, the more Ionic Accelerator procs you get, the more it works within itself because saving the ammo with Ionic Accelerator procs lends itself into going for more procs.

 

This is just a flat out fabrication and misdirection. Who is talking about 0 procs? No one. Your 6% is absolutely meaningless. But... let's take a look at how the numbers break down...

 

You have a 6.3% chance of 0 procs and ending with 1 ammo. You have a 13.1% chance of 1 procs and ending with an average of .777 ammo; a 26.6% chance of 2 procs and 3.952 ammo; 36.5% chance of 3 procs and 7 ammo; 16% chance of 4 procs and 10.296 ammo; 16% chance of 4 procs and 1.5% chance of 5 procs with 11.039 ammo. On average, you are looking at ~2.5 procs and 5.6 ammo remaining. ~20% of the time you end with .24 ammo regen, ~42% with .36, and ~38% with .6.

 

On average, deep Tactics ends with 7.54 ammo. It ends with 5 12.5% of the time; 6 4.4% of the time, 7 20.5% of the time, 8 41.6% of the time, 9 21% of the time. That's 62.6% of the time ending with max regen. This understates it's ammo friendliness as many times the HEC regen tick is going to come after and bump you up close to the max regen.

 

Like I said, if you are trying to force as many procs as you are claiming you get, you run a very substantial chance of crippling yourself and Hammer Shotting for the next 10+ seconds. Assault and anything that uses Assault in a hybrid is not a pressure build. It's unsustainable. You are playing the RNG too hard if you are trying to pressure. You can play it in a burst scenario just fine. It will fail you in a pressure role. Tactics will not. This is why Tactics is a pressure build. It does this exceptionally well. This is why Tactics is a more ammo friendly build. You never took into consideration the timing of HIB resets or that base ammo regen is variable.

 

I don't think you understand the potency of the interrupt, or you don't have the perception to understand why the lockout of even one ability is so important. It only locks down one ability, yes. But it locks down the most important ability they have. You use the interrupt on Dark Infusion, Rapid Scan, Kolto Injection, Tracer Missile, Ambush/Snipe, whatever. They are shut down and are forced into a weaker strategy which lets you dictate and win the fight. You interrupt the ability they need to out-heal you or out-DPS you; the more you lock it out, the easier you win. Quite clearly if you're trying to assume I'm a simpleton and don't understand the skills and tools I have before me, it's not achieving anything. When really the key points of PvP that I assume most people understand are what you don't seem to acknowledge.

 

Your not a simpleton. You play a poor build and are stubborn defending it. Dark Infusion has a 3 second base case. It's 2.5 after talents... and 1.5 if the Sorce is smart. Lock out is 4 seconds. That brings the recast down to 5.5 seconds. You won't interupt the second cast. You are more or less in same boat as an untalented Riot Strike. There isn't a Kolto Injection. Kolto Infusion is going to be a 1 second cast time. Operatives also have a lot of HoTs that aren't going to care about your interupt. Rapid Scan doesn't have a CD. You can't interupt the second. Mercs have several other heals. They also have interupt immunity. Without the school lock and the bias of the game towards instant healing, the benefit of lowering an interupt's CD is reduced substantially.

 

How are Rain of Fire, Burnout, and Assault Trooper not implied when I say "because of Assault Plastique"? You need to take the skills to get there; it's not rocket science.

 

You are wrong for the same reason that and individual who says "Tactics is more ammo friendly because of Fire Pulse" is wrong.

 

I've never said it's a magical fairy. I've just said that hybrid Tactics/Assault works better in more situations than deep Tactics. Which it does.

 

Which situations? Pressure? No. Burst? Not unless the magical fairy HIB reset fairy makes a showing. Sustain / ammo regen? No. What does it do better than deep Tactics? Nothing. The Tactics / Assault Hybrid does everything Tactics does but worse and doesn't have the advantages brought by an Assault build. It's going the middle route to get the worst of all worlds. All you have is a better kite build. That's great for 1v1 dueling against certain classes. I'm sure it'll be solid if they bring in rated dueling.

 

I highly doubt that I'm out of tune with anything, but I'm not going to bother arguing anymore because quite clearly I am no longer as adept as I was back in the day with banging my head against a wall.

 

You play Tactcs / Assault. You are quite adept at banging your head into a wall.

[Azrienov]

Gut works well on healers, which is where a DPS vanguard with any kind of brain should be at anyway. After the initial kinetic damage, you're dealing internal damage, which bypasses armor. And DoT stacking is an excellent way to deal with HoT effects. If you use riot strike often enough, you end up causing all sorts of problems for soft targets.

 

The smart sorcs hit the afterburner and take off after putting up with me wailing on them all day long. And then end up right back where they started courtesy of the lovable and glorious harpoon. Stack the DoTs, line your HiB up with a time-delayed damage, like sticky grenade(weird I know) and drop your target below the critical 30% line. If you're using the assault spec in primus, you already know why you want to be there.

 

Its worth mentioning that some of the passive talents in the tree allow for chaining auto crits, or free attacks. A free HiB mixed with the auto critical hit is an interesting possibility, especially if it chains after just activating HiB for a peak damage curve in a small time stamp. Long story short, use gut if you are looking to stack as many ticks into a single stamp as possible. Use gut if you want to cancel out HoT effects. Use gut because you have a predisposition to cutting people. Use gut because you are heartbroken that you're melee attack is you hitting them in the face with a highly advanced energy based weapon system like it's a tree branch. Use gut so you can feel like BH didn't get all of the cool animations(this one is a bit of a stretch). And finally, use gut to increase the efficiency of damage per ammo point expenditure over time. 1 point of ammo regenerates really fast.

 

tl;dr

 

Request picture-book style forums. I'm not breaking it down because you're lazy or illiterate.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Azrienov

[hotfuss]

um why do you say that Gut works well on healers? I mean doesnt Incendiary Round work just as well? (or even better since from what I have understood -and this was one of my main points- it get mitigated less than Gut?)

[Raggok]

Gut, Incendiary Round, and Plasma Cell DOT work well on everyone when stacked.