Wish you could change advanced classes, great idea!

[DackVadnais]

I posted this elseware on the forums hoping a bioware employee will see it and like the idea

 

- I played a good solid 25 levels as a jedi sentinel and another 35 as a sith marauder and the only thing i really wish is that i could change my advanced class maybe in the same way you reset your skill tree at the vendor. Because after hearing all the praise about the guardian's armor and flexibility of combat roles i wanted to switch but that meant going all the way back to level one, a new characted "which i was running out of names for", and having to play through all those levels all over again. I'm not saying that i should be able to switch advanced class willy nilly or anything they could make it so you can only do it once per character if you decide you truelly don't like your advanced class or they could even charge credits for the service but having to replay all of that game time is just torturous and i'm only on level 12 so far. I'm also not the only person who has this issue i'm sure.

[Lethality]

You aren't allowed to switch classes in any other MMO, so why would you expect to here? Some choices have to carry weight in a class-based RPG and this is one of them.

[Demorgoth]

but having to replay all of that game time is just torturous and i'm only on level 12 so far.

 

Getting to L12 is not 'torturous', it's an afternoon session of gameplay... I should know, I've got 7 chars all over L20, one at 11, and rerolled a few of them already. Once you've got the hang of the game from your first runthrough, the subsequent ones fly by

[themacr]

NO please never implement this.

 

I'll explain why (for the gazillioned time).

 

an AC is not just "another twist to a class"

 

The AC's are in most cases completely different classes to each other.

 

ranged/melee (inquisitor)

heal/tank (Bounty Hunter)

Ranged/melee (Imperial agent)

DMG\Tank (Warrior)

 

out of the 4 classes the only one that is remotely similar imo is the warrior class. All others should be considered another class to each other Hence we cannot change our AC's.

 

Also you would cut the replay vallue in half by allowing AC switching

[chaosdefined]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

All those who are opposed to it have, in my opinion, poor arguments that just boil down to nothing more than they don't like the idea so nobody should be able to experience it! They don't care about quality of life for other players, they don't want something that doesn't effect them!

 

It will get implimented though, at some stage. Most likely when SWTOR's subscription numbers begin to fall.

 

Either that or allow us to pick our AC from the very beginning.

Edited February 29, 2012 by chaosdefined

[Lethality]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

All those who are opposed to it have, in my opinion, poor arguments that just boil down to nothing more than they don't like the idea so nobody should be able to experience it! They don't care about quality of life for other players, they don't want something that doesn't effect them!

 

It will get implimented though, at some stage. Most likely when SWTOR's subscription numbers begin to fall.

 

Either that or allow us to pick our AC from the very beginning.

 

Bounty Hunter is your STORY.

 

BioWare indeed fumbled by not calling them that from the beginning, but the fact remains the advanced classes are completely different classes: Different armor, different weapons, different skills and different roles.

[Dayfax]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

I kinda like the idea of classes that can't do it all -- the problem with paladins and druids was that they were difficult to balance and one spec (lol ret) usually ended up completely gimp.

 

But on the other hand I agree with your assessment. The biggest problem is that ACs lock new players into roles they might not understand or want.

 

It also kills a chunk of the vaunted replay ability. If someone rolls a Vanguard, they're much less likely to follow that up with a Commando, no matter how much the play style might appeal, because the replay value is pretty much nil.

[twinionx]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

All those who are opposed to it have, in my opinion, poor arguments that just boil down to nothing more than they don't like the idea so nobody should be able to experience it! They don't care about quality of life for other players, they don't want something that doesn't effect them!

 

It will get implimented though, at some stage. Most likely when SWTOR's subscription numbers begin to fall.

 

Either that or allow us to pick our AC from the very beginning.

 

Yet another player identify the flaws of the current AC design. And yet Bioware turns a blind eye to its flawed AC design.

 

Is there a way to conduct opinion poll on this issue to see how many are for AC-respec and how many are against AC-respec?

 

Bioware, you once conducted a poll to change the Jedi Wizard to Jedi Sage, why don't you do it again?

[chaosdefined]

Bounty Hunter is your STORY.

 

BioWare indeed fumbled by not calling them that from the beginning, but the fact remains the advanced classes are completely different classes: Different armor, different weapons, different skills and different roles.

 

All of that can be easily changed. It's done in other MMO's easily enough.

[Lethality]

But on the other hand I agree with your assessment. The biggest problem is that ACs lock new players into roles they might not understand or want.

 

But at the beginning of other games, you choose a Warrior, or Mage, or Hunter... what happens if you didn't understand it, or want it after you've played it for a while? You roll a new one, you don't switch classes!

 

BioWare should have called the classes Stories, right from the beginning because that's all they are. And they should have simply called Advanced Classes, Classes because again, that's what they are.

 

I would agree also that they should have simply allowed you to choose them from the start. I could see if there was some massively interesting or twist-turny story that leads up to your "choice" but there isn't... you just visit an NPC and pick.

 

None the less, I'm a believer in staying true to the design and changing something like this could be game breaking. You might say offer it one time only, but players would them complain as they are now... "just 1 more!" Give an inch, take a mile.

 

Stick to your guns, BioWare.

[chaosdefined]

But at the beginning of other games, you choose a Warrior, or Mage, or Hunter... what happens if you didn't understand it, or want it after you've played it for a while? You roll a new one, you don't switch classes!

 

But then you don't start up WoW and then play for 2 hours before choosing to be a Priest or a Warlock.

 

Please explain how it would be remotely game breaking in the slightest? Giving players freedom of choice on their character would do nothing but enhance the experience.

 

What's more likely, they allow the ability to change your AC choice later in the game, say at level 50, and suddenly (and unexplainedly) the game isn't playable?

 

Or they don't allow AC changes and people who levelled up to 30 or 40 or 50 and have come to realise they don't like their AC and don't feel like putting in all the time to start from the beginning and repeat everything, unsubscribe and then the game begins to lose players?

[illgot]

I personally hate these split paths past a certain level.

 

Hated it with Age of Conan.

 

Hated it with Aion.

 

Hated it with TOR.

 

It's a lame cop out. Especially when the classes use pretty much the same stats and gear.

[Lethality]

But then you don't start up WoW and then play for 2 hours before choosing to be a Priest or a Warlock.

 

Why did you cut off the rest of my post?

 

Please explain how it would be remotely game breaking in the slightest? Giving players freedom of choice on their character would do nothing but enhance the experience.

 

No, it would completely diminish the value of the experience.

 

This is a class-based design, no different than others where you need to make choices. The devaluation of the meaning of these choices is what, even subconsciously, players are becoming dissatisfied with. Yes, even you... you just may not realize it.

 

What's more likely, they allow the ability to change your AC choice later in the game, say at level 50, and suddenly (and unexplainedly) the game isn't playable?

 

Or they don't allow AC changes and people who levelled up to 30 or 40 or 50 and have come to realise they don't like their AC and don't feel like putting in all the time to start from the beginning and repeat everything, unsubscribe and then the game begins to lose players?

 

If they're changing the core design to save a sinking ship, then the battle is already lost.

[chaosdefined]

I cut off the rest of your post because I was answering that one part first.

 

If the ship is sinking, and that is one of the reasons, then the battle is not lost if they decide to try and save it.

 

You're of the opinion that it will devalue the experience, but it doesn't effect yours. It only serves to improve the experience for those who do not like having to make such an important gameplay decision at such an awkward stage of levelling.

[Lethality]

I cut off the rest of your post because I was answering that one part first.

 

If the ship is sinking, and that is one of the reasons, then the battle is not lost if they decide to try and save it.

 

You're of the opinion that it will devalue the experience, but it doesn't effect yours. It only serves to improve the experience for those who do not like having to make such an important gameplay decision at such an awkward stage of levelling.

 

In an MMORPG, I am of the opinion that everyone's experience effects everyone to some extent... this is such a core design that they cannot change it. They are classes.

 

I would be in support of them simply moving the choice back to the beginnng... seems like this could be done as simply as moving the NPC from the fleet to the origin worlds. But, it might be a little jarring for players because then they're making this choice and it doesn't have any real meaning for 10 more levels.

 

They might have to back it up to character creation, which might mean more work... but I guess not a lot.

[twinionx]

But at the beginning of other games, you choose a Warrior, or Mage, or Hunter... what happens if you didn't understand it, or want it after you've played it for a while? You roll a new one, you don't switch classes!

 

BioWare should have called the classes Stories, right from the beginning because that's all they are. And they should have simply called Advanced Classes, Classes because again, that's what they are.

 

I would agree also that they should have simply allowed you to choose them from the start. I could see if there was some massively interesting or twist-turny story that leads up to your "choice" but there isn't... you just visit an NPC and pick.

 

None the less, I'm a believer in staying true to the design and changing something like this could be game breaking. You might say offer it one time only, but players would them complain as they are now... "just 1 more!" Give an inch, take a mile.

 

Stick to your guns, BioWare.

 

In the first place, fantasy role playing game genre has a long tradition. You have a fair idea what is a mage, or a warrior or a thief/rogue. These are classic classes.

 

But if an RPG game allows you to play a mage but your mage turns out to wear heavy armor, cast no spells and only do prayers to the gods...would you accept it?

 

Or a warrior that cast spells and wear cloths?

 

SWTOR classes are not so well defined. Who knows what is a consular? To me its a diplomat (a.k.a Leia Organa) rather than a shoduken spamming sage or a rogue like shadow.

 

Players do not know these things.

 

LOTRO did a better job by giving a short preview of the classes.

 

However, let me answer the most common question asked : What if you roll a mage and found you didn't like the class.

 

Well, guess what, it happened to me in LORTO. I rolled a burglar thinking it may play like a WoW rogue. (stealth, backstab that sort of things) and then I realised it is not. The burglar is nothing at all like the WoW rogue. Did I reroll? No. I quit LOTRO.

 

So my question to you folks who are anti AC Respec. Do you want players to quit SWTOR because they are unhappy with the decision they made 10 hours into a game, after playing for 30-50 hours?

[Dayfax]

But at the beginning of other games, you choose a Warrior, or Mage, or Hunter... what happens if you didn't understand it, or want it after you've played it for a while? You roll a new one, you don't switch classes!

 

That's a valid point.

 

I think the difference is that those roles are much more narrowly defined, and their leveling draw comes almost completely from gameplay mechanics. A rogue plays very differently than a mage, but a vanguard and a commando? Mmmm, not so much. In SWTOR, there's a big overlap in the gameplay between some (but not all) advanced classes.

 

Worse, the primary draw here is the class story and that's going to be exactly the same. Requiring people to run through that twice because they made the wrong choice at level 10 seems short sighted to the point of cruelty.

 

Especially in Bioware's case, because it mostly seem like they're trying to protect a design idea rather than maintain the integrity of gameplay.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Dayfax

[twinionx]

In an MMORPG, I am of the opinion that everyone's experience effects everyone to some extent... this is such a core design that they cannot change it. They are classes.

 

I would be in support of them simply moving the choice back to the beginnng... seems like this could be done as simply as moving the NPC from the fleet to the origin worlds. But, it might be a little jarring for players because then they're making this choice and it doesn't have any real meaning for 10 more levels.

 

They might have to back it up to character creation, which might mean more work... but I guess not a lot.

 

I also find fault with the argument that since the AC classes played differently, they should not be interchanged.

 

Guess what? Within the mercenary AC, whether I play as a healer is vastly different compared to whether I played as a DPS. Yet I am allow to re-spec (and soon, dual spec)

 

So this argument holds no water. The dev has already planned for players to play two different playstyles already. (tank/dps, healer/dps)

 

I dare say playing a tank vs dps is MORE different than playing say a shadow dps vs a sage dps. Ultimately your role is still DPS. You will still use some common skills like project and TT.

[Bielduwyn]

If they took ten hours to get there they're pretty slow. Even on my first playthrough I wrapped up Tython in about 6-8 hours.

 

Anyway, it just is a mess one way or the other. If a Guardian decides to become a sentinel, all his gear becomes useless as he can't equip heavy armour any longer, and inversely a sentinel going Guardian will have pathetically weak gear. Or a Sniper going Operative would find her sniper rifle absolutely useless. And it would be pretty cheap to just give them a backpack containing a competitive set of gear for what their new AC needs compared to those who stuck with their initial choice throughout. And on the flipside you can't have them running around with terrible gear or they won't even be able to solo, much less be any use in a Heroic or FP.

 

I guess the best alternative could be that after Coruscant/DK an NPC asks if the current AC is working out for you and offer a one off change, but I'd personally be a proponent of just sticking to your choice.

[Lethality]

I also find fault with the argument that since the AC classes played differently, they should not be interchanged.

 

Guess what? Within the mercenary AC, whether I play as a healer is vastly different compared to whether I played as a DPS. Yet I am allow to re-spec (and soon, dual spec)

 

So this argument holds no water. The dev has already planned for players to play two different playstyles already. (tank/dps, healer/dps)

 

I dare say playing a tank vs dps is MORE different than playing say a shadow dps vs a sage dps. Ultimately your role is still DPS. You will still use some common skills like project and TT.

 

The argument holds the ultimate holy water: BioWare says so.

 

When you switch specs, no matter the role, you still use the same type of armor and same type of weapon (that's key to the design).

 

BioWare has stated time and again that they designed Advanced Classes as full MMO classes with all of the differentiation you expect to find there. They are not specs, and should not ever be changed.

[chaosdefined]

The argument holds the ultimate holy water: BioWare says so.

 

When you switch specs, no matter the role, you still use the same type of armor and same type of weapon (that's key to the design).

 

BioWare has stated time and again that they designed Advanced Classes as full MMO classes with all of the differentiation you expect to find there. They are not specs, and should not ever be changed.

 

Heaven forbid they should be wrong about their opinion on what makes something a different class or a glorified spec.

[Lethality]

Heaven forbid they should be wrong about their opinion on what makes something a different class or a glorified spec.

 

The point you are missing, though, is that this is SUCH a core design foundation that effort should be spent making it work, not changing it. Move classes to "stories" and advanced classes to "classes", let the characters pick them at character creation, etc. Not allow willy-nilly switches between them.

 

There is more than one solution to a problem and the right one in this case is to not change the core intent design, but rather support it.

[chaosdefined]

I agree with you on the point that they should be able to choose at the beginning instead of after 10 levels.

 

But for those players who have already spent so many hours playing a class to discover they don't like the AC, they're pretty unlikely to want to go back and repeat every mission and hour they have already done. They'll just quit.

[aznthecapn]

PLEASE not this again. We had several threads about this that either got closed or the people in them all agreed that, for the forseeable future, this wasn't going to be added and decided to leave it alone. We need it to REST for a few months before we come back and rehash it. The arguments for and against are ALWAYS the same. The only thing that will change is a person's view of the game.

 

Arguing over the forums over the span of 2-3 days will not change that opinion for anyone. Hence - let it go. Bioware said "no" and that won't change for a while. Once people have had time to play the game and the game has been through its myriad of changes we can revisit this and see if the general view of the populace has changed.

 

Heaven forbid they should be wrong about their opinion on what makes something a different class or a glorified spec.

 

Opinions cannot be wrong.

 

And its not an opinion, its a fact because they declare it so.

Edited February 29, 2012 by aznthecapn

[chaosdefined]

PLEASE not this again. We had several threads about this that either got closed or the people in them all agreed that, for the forseeable future, this wasn't going to be added and decided to leave it alone. We need it to REST for a few months before we come back and rehash it. The arguments for and against are ALWAYS the same. The only thing that will change is a person's view of the game.

 

Arguing over the forums over the span of 2-3 days will not change that opinion for anyone. Hence - let it go. Bioware said "no" and that won't change for a while. Once people have had time to play the game and the game has been through its myriad of changes we can revisit this and see if the general view of the populace has changed.

 

 

 

Opinions cannot be wrong.

 

And its not an opinion, its a fact because they declare it so.

 

The sky is orange, I declare that a fact therefore it must be so. Sorry your logic fails.

 

What their opinion of a class is, is wrong.

 

And no, we will not shut up about something we want changed about the game. We are paying customers and if we would like a change we will voice our opinions until the developers decide to see whether or not there is a large enough vote for it.

 

If you're sick of the arguments, simple answer, don't read the threads.