Strength and Power

[xContex]

I know this is the (insert ridiculously high number)'s thread however this has somewhat baffled me and nothing has given me a straight answer. My understanding of Guardians is our primary stat is strength. I accept that. However where does power come into all this.

 

Right now I am running a hybrid build between Vig and Def as seen here:

http://knotor.com/skills#AgIOGwCDkaq7y9oySVJaaXN5gomSssvT2gAA

 

(Keep in mind I am primarily in Soresu form both in PvE and PvP)

 

I tried focus bombing however that wasn't my play style so I switched to this build. My question to you all is how does power influence my strikes. I mean obviously we don't know statistical numbers without a combat log but how beneficial would stacking power be to me. I'm not stacking crits outside of what the champion gear gives me. But with 1.2 around the corner, making a more efficient build is my goal.

 

Secondly I know there is a somewhat soft cap when it comes to critical strikes, does power have a cap as well and if so has anyone figured out a rough estimate as to when?

Edited February 29, 2012 by xContex

[AndantePhist]

1 strength equates to about .8 power and like .006ish crit (you need like 150 strength to get 1% crit.). There are 2 types of "Power" for guardians. Power and Force Power. Power increases the damage of ALL your attacks. Force power increases damage of force attacks, luckily force power is only found on your weapon and offhand.

 

You want you crit to be around 30-31%, anymore and the diminishing returns is horrible.

 

Also WHY do you have shien talents when you are pvping in soresu form?

 

http://knotor.com/skills#AgILHQCRqrnL0toyQklSWnN5gpKaorK509oA

 

I fixed your spec, this build has 1 extra talent point you can put into whatever you like.

 

BTW pacification is terrible if you only plan to use force sweep. You are basically spending 3 talent points to increase your force sweep damage by like 150 every 12 seconds. Thats a 12 dps increase for THREE talent points... not worth it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by AndantePhist

[xContex]

This build was a little dated which is why some skill points don't make sense. My question to you is this:

 

1) Why shift points from Guarded Stance to Dust Storm when accuracy is already nearly maxed when pvp gear. Would it make that much of a difference?

 

2) Why put points in gathering strength. Does gathering strength also include CCs? Cause more often then not I get CC'd than slowed. The bonus damage is nice though.

 

3) Lastly would it be viable to try to push for plasma brand? My understanding is DOTs aren't too effective as they stand especially with the incoming 1.1.5 patch. Dots do minimal damage and to an extent aren't fully worth the points.

 

Thank you for taking your time to respond

[S_SienZ]

1 strength equates to about .8 power and like .006ish crit (you need like 150 strength to get 1% crit.).

 

Is this a consistent value or is it dependant on how much Strength you have?

[dizzyMongoose]

If the formulas at sithwarrior.com are correct (and I've found their Strength and Power formulas to be accurate), 20% of your Strength is added to your damage, while 23% of your Power is added. Thus, Power is the better stat, but obviously harder to find. Unlike most stats, their benefits aren't subject to diminishing returns, just a straight percentage. Edited February 29, 2012 by dizzyMongoose

[AndantePhist]

This build was a little dated which is why some skill points don't make sense. My question to you is this:

 

1) Why shift points from Guarded Stance to Dust Storm when accuracy is already nearly maxed when pvp gear. Would it make that much of a difference?

 

2) Why put points in gathering strength. Does gathering strength also include CCs? Cause more often then not I get CC'd than slowed. The bonus damage is nice though.

 

3) Lastly would it be viable to try to push for plasma brand? My understanding is DOTs aren't too effective as they stand especially with the incoming 1.1.5 patch. Dots do minimal damage and to an extent aren't fully worth the points.

 

Thank you for taking your time to respond

 

1. Reread dust storm description. It DECREASES the accuracy of ENEMIES hit with sweep by 5% for 2 talent points.

 

2. Gathering strength happens ALOT in pvp, lots of classes have snares that last for only like 2 seconds so alot of times you dont notice.

 

3. Warden Call or Plasma Brand, either one works. However if you are going plasma brand, its better to go 7/31/3 or some variant with only 7 in defense.

Edited February 29, 2012 by AndantePhist

[S_SienZ]

1. Reread dust storm description. It DECREASES the accuracy of ENEMIES hit with sweep by 5% for 2 talent points.

 

Think you misunderstood him there. What he was trying to do was question the use of the talent in PvP where most people would have high accuracy anyway, would 5% be significant?

[xContex]

Think you misunderstood him there. What he was trying to do was question the use of the talent in PvP where most people would have high accuracy anyway, would 5% be significant?

 

What he said. Sorry for the ambiguity. I was trying to ask when enemies have nearly max if not over 100% accuracy, how effective could this really be?

[Marqhill]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record on the forums but I feel it bares saying. I think any hybrid build that you do is going to be subpar. That's just been my personal experience. I see the Vig/Def hybrid as being a situation where people just don't want to let go of the training wheels of Soresu form because the 60% armor buff sounds like such a big deal. It really isn't. I find that with the temporary knock back immunity from Unremitting AND the 4% damage Reduction bonus AND the 4% endurance buff AND the ability to apply your guardian leap bonus to yourself Vigilance is actually quite survivable in PvE and PvP. I mean, if you go up Vigilance you're going to do MUCH better single target DPS and if you go all the way up Defense you're ability to latch onto a healer and defend him for an entire game will be greatly increased due to the increased number of CC's that you get on the 5th tier of the Defense tree. That last bit is quite contrary to popular belief but honestly if you have the right gear and a good healer it's absolutely awesome!

 

Now, with all that said, if you're going to do a hybrid build then the hybrid build that you posted is about as good as it gets. If you're going to be stance dancing between tanking and dps then you've given yourself a good amount of skills to play with here. I ran something similar except I didn't take the Shien form talents because I ran mine entirely in Soresu (because I couldn't take off my training wheels either at the time hehe!) I imagine you can do pretty well with it but it's going to be a lot of work. I saw some other guy on the forum who was consistently putting up 200,000 damage and 200,000 protection per warzone with a build somewhat similar to yours. Honestly I think it's not so much that the build is so great as that guy was just an absolutely amazing player.

 

I would like to end this with one comment though. I'm most assuredly not the end all be all of Guardian players and I'm not throwing my opinion around like it's the law. Is this a cripplingly bad build? Absolutely not. Do I personally think it's subpar? Yes. Can you do well with it? More than likely if you're a good player. The most important question really is will/do you enjoy playing this build? That's the one you're going to have to answer!

 

Edit: Upon further review I did see a weakness. If you're not going to take all the DOT abilities in the vigilance tree then don't take any. To be effective with the DOT's in vigilance you need all of them working in conjunction. It's really a situation where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts (I love that phrase). Anyway, you're MUCH better suited spending those points on Force Rush. It makes your free blade storm and auto crit after using overhead slash AND dispatch will also be an auto crit. Which is a big deal.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Marqhill

[AndantePhist]

What he said. Sorry for the ambiguity. I was trying to ask when enemies have nearly max if not over 100% accuracy, how effective could this really be?

 

more effective than 4% defense from soresu form (2% defense per talent point)

 

4% more defense just means your enemies have 4% less accuracy when attacking you.

 

Honestly 5% less accuracy on enemies OR 4% more defense in soresu are BOTH TERRIBLE talents lol, but you have nothing else to put your talents in order to get warding call.

Edited February 29, 2012 by AndantePhist

[CapuchinSeven]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record on the forums but I feel it bares saying. I think any hybrid build that you do is going to be subpar. That's just been my personal experience. I see the Vig/Def hybrid as being a situation where people just don't want to let go of the training wheels of Soresu form because the 60% armor buff sounds like such a big deal.

 

I agree and disagree, that 60% can be very useful at times, but more importantly if I'm running with my healer friend then Guard will make us just about unkillable, it took 7 players to bring us down last night and by that time the other turret was taken. I couldn't have done that in Shen.

 

Solo I will spec into a different tree (costs me a load of credits, GIF DUAL SPECZ!).

 

I actually kinda like a strange Cho form Vigilance build with some points in Focus for Cho, sometimes. 6 second Blade Storms are kinda fun and you gain 3% mitigation on top of the 4% you get from Commanding Awe. Not sure I'd run it normally though.

 

If we could guard outside of Soresu then I'd be with you 100%. Although I do find the low down DOT for Blade Storm useful for stopping caps and blowing stealth of the wimps that thought a Jedi was an easy target and then panic and try and get away.

 

http://knotor.com/skills#AgINHACRqrvL0topMkJJWnN5kpqjsrrT2gAA

 

That'll be the next hybrid I use when I next spec out of my solo running spec.

 

BTW pacification is terrible if you only plan to use force sweep. You are basically spending 3 talent points to increase your force sweep damage by like 150 every 12 seconds. Thats a 12 dps increase for THREE talent points... not worth it.

 

I agree with this, I respec'd the other day and considered the maths, next time I respec I'll be dropping it. Pretty much agree with your comments about the defence talents as well, but you have nothing else to put into it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[TheLakers]

DPS vig guardians just aren't scary, like say, compared to a watchmen Sent. You'll be helping your OPS much more as a hybrid, dps-wise by throwing guard on that geared Sent or Vanguard facerolling everybody with their much superior dps by keeping them alive. Not to mention, turning your healer into a unkillable healing machine.

 

 

 

I agree with this, I respec'd the other day and considered the maths, next time I respec I'll be dropping it. Pretty much agree with your comments about the defence talents as well, but you have nothing else to put into it.

 

That DPS actually adds up and if you're taking dust storm, you might as well take pacification. It also increases your crit dmg for much needed burst and cyclone slash becomes a decent AOE focus dump.

 

1 point in zen strike is pretty unreliable for an already unreliable pvp ability that can easily be interrupted or avoided. But I'm all for people trying new hybrid specs.

[CapuchinSeven]

1 point in zen strike is pretty unreliable for an already unreliable pvp ability that can easily be interrupted or avoided. But I'm all for people trying new hybrid specs.

 

My Master Strike can't be avoided or interrupted given the way I use it most times and will land for around 4-5k if I use a relic/stim, nothing funnier than pushing and leaping to someone, starting Master Strike while the stand animation plays and watching them stand on the spot wondering why their interrupt isn't working, then trying to push me and that fail as well, they just kinda walk backwards a little and take the total damage, Sorc's sprinting away is about the only time I'll miss the full amount hitting although Zen Strike isn't that great it's just one final point that I just can't seem to put anywhere else that makes much sense to me but the more I use Master Strike the more I feel like a fool for not using it in beta.

 

Maybe Insight or Pacification, I dunno. That'll be my next hybrid though, I'll adjust as I feel I need. I can never make my mind up over Plasma Brand or Warding Call and mostly just end up with Warding Call which I use and use well, Brand just seems to be too much cost in a build that can become starved if you're not careful.

 

EDIT - Interestingly I never noticed it boosts Cyclone before, you're right. That's mostly due to me using Cyclone mostly to keep people off doors.

Edited February 29, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[AndantePhist]

I would get burning purpose.

 

2 talent points for a 40 dps boost isnt too bad (elemental damage isnt mitigated by armor)

 

Its a free 300-400 damage every 9 seconds.

[VoidJustice]

I would get burning purpose.

 

2 talent points for a 40 dps boost isnt too bad (elemental damage isnt mitigated by armor)

 

Its a free 300-400 damage every 9 seconds.

 

little numbers are good in PVE worhtless in PVP

 

Reallocate your precious points out of DOT's in this game, Vig does plenty

of damage without it.

[GarfieldJL]

little numbers are good in PVE worhtless in PVP

 

Reallocate your precious points out of DOT's in this game, Vig does plenty

of damage without it.

 

That's why I always recommend plasma brand as the first attack.

 

Avg of 200-300 dmg a second, which lasts for 12 seconds (not including crits and it can crit)

 

At 9 seconds, you've dealt 1800-2700 dmg to a target that armor can't reduce. In that 9 seconds you've also launched other attacks like blade storm which you throw in it's DoT, and sometimes you can also dish out overhead strike right after (or if it's under 20% hp for target I can dispatch, which has a +60% crit like blade storm).

 

In a group fight, unless you are a focus guardian, master strike can be interrupted, and that interrupt doesn't have to come from your target.

 

While Focus may be more PvP oriented, that doesn't mean Vigilence can't ruin people's days.

Edited February 29, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[RockysRevenge]

Don't forget that DOTs help a lot when fighting stealth classes. My main is a shadow and I can't tell you how many times I've been fighting a BH, cloaked, and been popped out of stealth because I had a DOT that I didn't see. They aren't worthless at all for sustained damage classes, but bursty classes won't have much use for them. Guardians are definitely a sustained damage class. Edited February 29, 2012 by RockysRevenge

[CapuchinSeven]

little numbers are good in PVE worhtless in PVP

 

Reallocate your precious points out of DOT's in this game, Vig does plenty

of damage without it.

 

Plus, in the next patch DOT's don't stop people taking objectives anymore so I've dropped it from my build (the one above) I'd rather have dust storm, 5% isn't much but that's effectively a +5% bonus to defence for everyone that the people hit by the AOE try to attack, including me.

 

When it comes to keeping my healer up I'll take everything we have, and I'd rather have that than the small DOT now it won't stop caps.

Edited March 1, 2012 by CapuchinSeven