Ovarf Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I read somewhere that burn effects are treated like force attacks. Is this the case and if so dose Insight bost your crit chance with burn effects ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toweleeeie Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yep burn is yellow damage, which means force. Pick up insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 yes it effects them but insight is still a garbage talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damican Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 yes it effects them but insight is still a garbage talent Why is insight garbage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Why is insight garbage? because it only effect you dots basically as watchmen, and as combat your main force attack is blade storm which should be used when you have a 100% crit chance for it. Inside the watchmen tree you increase your dot crit chance by 15%, so with a base of 25% crit and a smuggler buff you have a 45% chance for your dots to crit. Crit being a terminating stat (meaning you can never have more then 100% chance to crit) it is a diminishing stat, the more you have the less useful the stat is. So at 45% crit chance wasting 3 talent points to make it a 51% chance is just not a good investment when you can use those points for a greater DPS gain elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 because it only effect you dots basically as watchmen, and as combat your main force attack is blade storm which should be used when you have a 100% crit chance for it. Inside the watchmen tree you increase your dot crit chance by 15%, so with a base of 25% crit and a smuggler buff you have a 45% chance for your dots to crit. Crit being a terminating stat (meaning you can never have more then 100% chance to crit) it is a diminishing stat, the more you have the less useful the stat is. So at 45% crit chance wasting 3 talent points to make it a 51% chance is just not a good investment when you can use those points for a greater DPS gain elsewhere. Of course, now you're baselessly assuming that the smuggler buff is even available, much less applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepilk Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 because it only effect you dots basically as watchmen, and as combat your main force attack is blade storm which should be used when you have a 100% crit chance for it. When Combat, Ataru procs are also listed as force attacks. Given the 30% crit damage to Ataru procs, and the spamability of Blade Rush and how many procs it can generate its worth investing in if you have the points to spend. Its not a must have, but its better than a few of the other teir 1 picks for your left over points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FobManX Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's really only worth it if you have a ton of Accuracy(which you will as all Rakata pieces have Accuracy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovarf Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 it seems to me that the extra 6% for your burns will free up a fair amount of crit that can be replaced with power gear to more then make up for the potential DPS loss of 3 talents (in watchman I agree not as good in combat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeman Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Is the assumption that all burns are the same? Cauterize is listed as a melee attack, whereas Overcharge Saber is listed as a force attack. Would this not mean that the burns from Cauterize roll to crit as per one's melee crit chance whereas the burns from Overcharge roll to crit as per one's Force crit chance? Or is it that Cauterize's initial damage component is melee weapons damage but its burns are Force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 it seems to me that the extra 6% for your burns will free up a fair amount of crit that can be replaced with power gear to more then make up for the potential DPS loss of 3 talents (in watchman I agree not as good in combat) It's as good in combat as Ataru proc's are a significant part of your burst damage. Focus spec also benefits as blade storm, and zealous leap are an important part of your burst cycle. And having those crit in conjunction with a loaded force sweep is what lets you really pile up kills. Since the talent based crit boosts are also not subject to DR, it makes it even better. I'll admit though that crit is more important for PvP than PvE (as burst rules and burst is still about crits, even after the surge nerf), but it's still a good point investment, and beats most of the first two tier abilities (and is much better than accuracy unless your gear is terrible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeman Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 because it only effect you dots basically as watchmen, and as combat your main force attack is blade storm which should be used when you have a 100% crit chance for it. Inside the watchmen tree you increase your dot crit chance by 15%, so with a base of 25% crit and a smuggler buff you have a 45% chance for your dots to crit. Crit being a terminating stat (meaning you can never have more then 100% chance to crit) it is a diminishing stat, the more you have the less useful the stat is. So at 45% crit chance wasting 3 talent points to make it a 51% chance is just not a good investment when you can use those points for a greater DPS gain elsewhere. I'm not sure I see the reasoning here. That crit is a stat that suffers from diminishing returns does not entail that increasing the likelihood of a crit through talents is a bad investment; it means rather that there is a point where you should stop stacking more crit into your gear. +6% crit should always be a welcome buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeman Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Is the assumption that all burns are the same? Cauterize is listed as a melee attack, whereas Overcharge Saber is listed as a force attack. Would this not mean that the burns from Cauterize roll to crit as per one's melee crit chance whereas the burns from Overcharge roll to crit as per one's Force crit chance? Or is it that Cauterize's initial damage component is melee weapons damage but its burns are Force? Just to clarify: is it not possible for a melee attack to impart internal or elemental (hence yellow) damage? Or must these yellow damages always come from Tech or Force, in which case we can induce that for our burns it's Force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure I see the reasoning here. That crit is a stat that suffers from diminishing returns does not entail that increasing the likelihood of a crit through talents is a bad investment; it means rather that there is a point where you should stop stacking more crit into your gear. +6% crit should always be a welcome buff. wow its amazing how so many people are stick on the stats DR... I'm not talking about teh the DR of crit rating, i am talking about how crit itself is a diminishing stat. I cannot explain it much more simple then going from 1-30% crit is a better increase then going from 30-60. The more crit you have the less useful the stat not because you noe more stat point but because of crit being a terminating stat. Power no matter what will always increase damage no matter what you can never get more then 100% crit, thats what i mean by terminating stat, because it is a terminating stat the more you have the less useful it is. In this game for most classes the peak usefulness of crit stops at about 30-35% after that you have a much greater increase from power, not because of crit rating having DR but because you need a higher crit percentage to see the same damage increase. not to mention its a 6% buff on only a few skills the same skills which already have a very high crit chance. It is a trash stat. Edited February 28, 2012 by Hizoka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) wow its amazing how so many people are stick on the stats DR... I'm not talking about teh the DR of crit rating, i am talking about how crit itself is a diminishing stat. I cannot explain it much more simple then going from 1-30% crit is a better increase then going from 30-60. The more crit you have the less useful the stat not because you noe more stat point but because of crit being a terminating stat. Power no matter what will always increase damage no matter what you can never get more then 100% crit, thats what i mean by terminating stat, because it is a terminating stat the more you have the less useful it is. In this game for most classes the peak usefulness of crit stops at about 30-35% after that you have a much greater increase from power, not because of crit rating having DR but because you need a higher crit percentage to see the same damage increase. not to mention its a 6% buff on only a few skills the same skills which already have a very high crit chance. It is a trash stat. It's not basic math, Hizoka, and you can't even explain it properly yourself. You're just parroting some **** you read on sithwarrior. Yes, the difference between 35% and 40% is minimal when it comes to probability and chances, but when you start getting a bunch +acc gear, there aren't any better alternatives out there as far as talent points go (certainly not Watchguard, you stupid nubcake). So yeah, it's a decent 3 talent point investment. Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It's not basic math, Hizoka, and you can't even explain it properly yourself. You're just parroting some **** you read on sithwarrior. Yes, the difference between 35% and 40% is minimal when it comes to probability and chances, but when you start getting a bunch +acc gear, there aren't any better alternatives out there as far as talent points go (certainly not Watchguard, you stupid nubcake). So yeah, it's a decent 3 talent point investment. i can explain it just fine, its explaining so someone as simple as you understands it. You must really want to learn how to be a good sentinel you seems to want to read every post i make and then pretend you are smart or something without saying anything. It is never a good talent point investment. However bad players see crit and think its awesome thus why you like it. Not to mention a bad player can never see the bonus is a faster interrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) i can explain it just fine, its explaining so someone as simple as you understands it. You must really want to learn how to be a good sentinel you seems to want to read every post i make and then pretend you are smart or something without saying anything. It is never a good talent point investment. However bad players see crit and think its awesome thus why you like it. Not to mention a bad player can never see the bonus is a faster interrupt. I read and reply to many posts because I want to get better (Easymode_X has helped me learn my class tremendously, for example). As far as crit math, I understand the concept just fine without you having to explain anything, I'm just saying you're parroting the "terminating stat" to sound smart and going around acting like you know things when you're completely oblivious. Show me a better place to drop 3 talent points for endgame DPS (when you have +12% acc) than Insight and maybe I will listen. And don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of a faster interrupt (when you're running FPs or in PvP), I was just laughing at you when you said Watchguard was a good talent for endgame due to it allegedly enabling you to shut down any boss (lulz). One of these days you will run an Ops and realize that the boss' casting bar will keep going no matter how many interrupts you throw at them (there is one exception but that obviously doesn't make the talent worthwhile). And when you do realize that, you will feel like the idiot that you are. Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psybin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 That stat cap thing is complete nonsense from a mathematical point of view. If you ignore DR and RNG, then crit will have the exact same value right up to 100%, where upon it will have zero value. It does not tail off. If for example you have a total of 100% crit damage. 30% crit will mean you increase your average damage by a multiple of 1.3. If you have 60% crit, then it will be 1.6. It is completely linear up to 100%, then it flat lines. I am actually quite shocked at this blatent missinformation to be honest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 That stat cap thing is complete nonsense from a mathematical point of view. If you ignore DR and RNG, then crit will have the exact same value right up to 100%, where upon it will have zero value. It does not tail off. If for example you have a total of 100% crit damage. 30% crit will mean you increase your average damage by a multiple of 1.3. If you have 60% crit, then it will be 1.6. It is completely linear up to 100%, then it flat lines. I am actually quite shocked at this blatent missinformation to be honest... Well, you're really going to be critting at pretty much the same rate whether you have 30% or 35% (which is about 1/3 of the time you do damage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psybin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Actually I just did some writing down and hizoka is correct >< Lets simplify. Lets say you have an attack that does exactly 100 damage, every time. Lets assume that RNG doesn't come into play and you will always crit at exactly the rate your crit is at. And finally assume crit damage is exactly 100%. So if you crit, you basically hit double. You hit ten times. If you have no crit you will do 1000 damage. If you have 10% crit, you will do 1100 damage. An increase of 10% damage. If you have 20% crit, you will do 1200 damage. An increase of 20%. If you have 30% crit, you will do 1300 damage. An increase of 30%. Right up to 100% crit, where you will do 2000 damage. An increase of 100%. Linear. But! And this is a big but. If you go from 30% to 60% say. Then yes you increase your damage by 30% of base. But 300 increased damage is less than 30% of 1300... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) When it comes to a Watchman build, you only need 31 points in the tree. That leaves 10 points over. Justify not throwing 3 out of those 10 into Insight. What are the better options for end game DPS assuming you're at 108% without Steadfast? Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Actually I just did some writing down and hizoka is correct >< Lets simplify. Lets say you have an attack that does exactly 100 damage, every time. Lets assume that RNG doesn't come into play and you will always crit at exactly the rate your crit is at. And finally assume crit damage is exactly 100%. So if you crit, you basically hit double. You hit ten times. If you have no crit you will do 1000 damage. If you have 10% crit, you will do 1100 damage. An increase of 10% damage. If you have 20% crit, you will do 1200 damage. An increase of 20%. If you have 30% crit, you will do 1300 damage. An increase of 30%. Right up to 100% crit, where you will do 2000 damage. An increase of 100%. Linear. But! And this is a big but. If you go from 30% to 60% say. Then yes you increase your damage by 30% of base. But 300 increased damage is less than 30% of 1300... All this is absolutely correct, but I still challenge anyone to point out a 1st tier talent that gives a substantially larger DPS increase than a 6% crit boost (even if it is only affecting force powers). Unless there is something really good farther up you primary tree that you are otherwise missing out on (and yes watchguard falls into that category for PvP), I think it's a reasonable investment of points. It's certainly not something I would call someone bad for investing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 All this is absolutely correct, but I still challenge anyone to point out a 1st tier talent that gives a substantially larger DPS increase than a 6% crit boost (even if it is only affecting force powers). Unless there is something really good farther up you primary tree that you are otherwise missing out on (and yes watchguard falls into that category for PvP), I think it's a reasonable investment of points. It's certainly not something I would call someone bad for investing in. Watchguard is one of the best talents in Watchman for leveling and PvPing. My problem with Hizoka was that he had points in it for the best endgame PvE spec while ignoring Insight. Dude is clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Watchguard is one of the best talents in Watchman for leveling and PvPing. My problem with Hizoka was that he had points in it for the best endgame PvE spec while ignoring Insight. Dude is clueless. Ya, it's not exactly a must have for raiding. In fairness though you can definitely justify a 33 or 35 point watchman build. There really is only one lackluster talent in watchman above the fourth tier (focused pursuit), and there are some that really like even that talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantsOn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Ya, it's not exactly a must have for raiding. In fairness though you can definitely justify a 33 or 35 point watchman build. There really is only one lackluster talent in watchman above the fourth tier (focused pursuit), and there are some that really like even that talent. I don't know, man. Inflammation isn't that great in PvP given that we have Leg Slash which slows targets by 50% for cheap. It's totally useless in endgame PvE. Recompense is not useful in endgame since you're not getting hit 85% of the time. Watchguard has been covered. I'm just not seeing any more than 31 points for endgame PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts