JoshRollins Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If you go straight DPS Guardian you are still going to be putting out less damage than a Sentinel AND the Sentinel will be more durable than you. Heavy Armor doesn't really mean much, it's the skills that make tanky-ness and without defensive stances the Sentinel will be much more tanky than you half the time with Rebuke and Guarded By the Force, whereas DPS Guardians get.... Unremitting? Bioware needs to fix their game, actually put thought into the skill trees. DPS Guardian should have it's niche`. If a Guardian wants to go straight DPS he should be putting out decent damage AND be more tanky than straight DPS classes. But right now Sentinels put out more damage and our more durable than DPS Guardians, therefor there is absolutely zero reason to spec into Vigilance or Focus Guardian over a Sentinel. 2/3rd of Guardian's spec trees are after-thoughts, only acceptably used when combined with Defense as their primary tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafkin Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The price they pay for being able to duel spec as a tank? If they did the same dps as a Sentinel then why would anyone play a Sent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If you go straight DPS Guardian you are still going to be putting out less damage than a Sentinel AND the Sentinel will be more durable than you. Heavy Armor doesn't really mean much, it's the skills that make tanky-ness and without defensive stances the Sentinel will be much more tanky than you half the time with Rebuke and Guarded By the Force, whereas DPS Guardians get.... Unremitting? Bioware needs to fix their game, actually put thought into the skill trees. DPS Guardian should have it's niche`. If a Guardian wants to go straight DPS he should be putting out decent damage AND be more tanky than straight DPS classes. But right now Sentinels put out more damage and our more durable than DPS Guardians, therefor there is absolutely zero reason to spec into Vigilance or Focus Guardian over a Sentinel. 2/3rd of Guardian's spec trees are after-thoughts, only acceptably used when combined with Defense as their primary tree. Please show me the data that proves this. It's ignorant comments like this that perpetuate the idea that one class isn't as good as the other. So again...please show me the test results you have that prove this. Ill wait. And no, not anecdotal observations (well, my skill X critted for more then my buddy guards skill X) that's pure nonsense. Even without dps meters (which i hate btw), you still have the ability to run simple time based tests to give you a rough idea...and the tests I've seen so far show the guardian/juggernaut to be up in DPS with all the other DPS specs, including the pure classes. Bio stated specifically they're design is to have every DPS spec withing 5% of each other. Period. So enough with the mis-directional trolling please. and if you really didn't know, then I apologize, but there's no excuse for opening your mouth without getting the real information (instead of listening to odd rants in forums and online) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshRollins Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 The price they pay for being able to duel spec as a tank? If they did the same dps as a Sentinel then why would anyone play a Sent? Nobody said they should do the same DPS as a Sent. I said that if they spec purely into offense they should still be tankier than a Sent who specs purely into offense. Otherwise DPS Guardians have no niche` and are completely outclassed, which they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshRollins Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 And no, not anecdotal observations (well, my skill X critted for more then my buddy guards skill X) that's pure nonsense. Even without dps meters (which i hate btw), you still have the ability to run simple time based tests to give you a rough idea...and the tests I've seen so far show the guardian/juggernaut to be up in DPS with all the other DPS specs, including the pure classes. Bio stated specifically they're design is to have every DPS spec withing 5% of each other. Period. So enough with the mis-directional trolling please. and if you really didn't know, then I apologize, but there's no excuse for opening your mouth without getting the real information (instead of listening to odd rants in forums and online) So your argument is "Well Bioware said they designed all classes with "X" in mind"? So no balance issues because Bioware had a vision? Great. And I love how you throw around the word "troll" like it means something just because you don't like what you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Nobody said they should do the same DPS as a Sent. I said that if they spec purely into offense they should still be tankier than a Sent who specs purely into offense. Otherwise DPS Guardians have no niche` and are completely outclassed, which they are. BioWare has repeatedly said all dps roles should be within 5% of eachother. This is acceptable if someone prefers the look of heavy armor and a single saber to two. Once we get combat logs we'll be able to determine how close to their design philosophy they really are. Anything else is anecdotal and/or speculation/theorycrafting based on tooltips that have been shown to be buggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badhand Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) I suppose the main point is that there is absolutely no point in playing a useless toon that can ONLY dps, even if you suffer a mild amount of dps penalty. I've yet to see a sentinel or gunslinger that wasn't better replaced by a well-geared companion. Companions do not attack mezzed opponents. They do not attack early before the target is sapped. In short, the 300 line script that runs companion behavior is smarter than a dpstard. Humans are needed to heal and tank. They are not needed to dps at least until late end game, and at that point, a guardian, or a commando, or a scoundrel with dps spec is just fine. The existence of the sentinel and gunslinger class options is an IQ test. Edited February 26, 2012 by Badhand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The existence of the sentinel and gunslinger class options is an IQ test. It is unfortunate that some close minded individuals have this opinion because of the people that have no idea how to properly play these classes. They are actually quite useful in both PVE and PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badhand Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) It is unfortunate that some close minded individuals have this opinion because of the people that have no idea how to properly play these classes. They are actually quite useful in both PVE and PVP. I assure you I am not close-minded on this subject. I eagerly await being proven wrong. This is the conclusion I have come to after extensive play-time. DPS players are categorically dumb. The advantages that a dps-specialist class brings to the table do not outweigh the stupidity of the human that chooses the dps-only class. Edited February 26, 2012 by Badhand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I assure you I am not close-minded on this subject. I eagerly await being proven wrong. This is the conclusion I have come to after extensive play-time. DPS players are categorically dumb. The advantages that a dps-specialist class brings to the table do not outweigh the stupidity of the human that chooses the dps-only class. Yea, you are actually. You're using your personal experience to trump reason and research. Both classes bring a group-wide damage reduction ability they can use that is quite good in raids. Both classes have strong burst/focus DPS that they can drop people very quickly with in PVP. Sentinels/Marauders in particular are a terror on the battlefield when played properly and well supported. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not possible or doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badhand Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Yea, you are actually. You're using your personal experience to trump reason and research. Both classes bring a group-wide damage reduction ability they can use that is quite good in raids. Both classes have strong burst/focus DPS that they can drop people very quickly with in PVP. Sentinels/Marauders in particular are a terror on the battlefield when played properly and well supported. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not possible or doesn't exist. I think you may be missing the point. I am not claiming that the class itself is flawed. I am a raid healer and I can count on one hand how many times I have been healed back using the Zen power sentinels have. Is this the awesome utility you refer to? The class itself is not flawed, but the choice of class lends itself to tragically poor players. You can cry all you like, but the hard statistics do not support your emotional engagement here. DPSers are terrible, and you're better off replacing them with robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafkin Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Generalizations are bad. "All people who choose dps are stupid"? Really? Your opinion loses any validity right there. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) The class itself is not flawed, but the choice of class lends itself to tragically poor players. You can cry all you like, but the hard statistics do not support your emotional engagement here. DPSers are terrible, and you're better off replacing them with robots. You claim *I* am the one using emotion in this thread with a statement like this? I agree that most people who pick those classes are poor at them, I've seen that myself. That doesn't mean the class itself is bad or that NOBODY knows how to play them. I've seen plenty that do and I happen to know what they're capable of. Edited February 26, 2012 by hadoken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoLager Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Different classes are different. Guardians make up for the lack of dps by providing greater utility even while specced for dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Humans are needed to heal and tank. Up until endgame my friends and I just used Mako to heal us through heroics and flashpoints.... much quicker ( and usually more effective ) than getting an actual healer. Edited February 26, 2012 by Sylriana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) So your argument is "Well Bioware said they designed all classes with "X" in mind"? So no balance issues because Bioware had a vision? Great. And I love how you throw around the word "troll" like it means something just because you don't like what you see. My argument includes Bio because, at this point in time, they have the most data to work with, and they say that the classes should be W/I 5% of each other. and that's still more data then most people have when they make their absurd claims about class dps. and I actually DO like what I see. I play multiple classes, and I have no issues mowing down mobs as fast on my jugg as I do on my sage or shadow consular or my PT BH. It's not easier, but EZ and DPS are two different terms. so anyone who throws up percentages like they actually KNOW should put up their test data for proof. i'm comfortable with that. If they have none, then they are going of pure speculation. which is fine...but when you start talking as if you actually know? then you are acting either ignorant or stupid...or a troll. take your pick. I thought that trolling was the less offensive comment, but whatever works for you. All you had to do is say that in YOUR OPINION Juggs FEEL like they do less damage. i would be satisfied with that. because your admitting its you're opinion. I usually admit my opinion. And please don't tell me that your response to my post was the best 'data' you had on the subject. if you have data that shows otherwise, i'm all ears. I have no problem admitting im wrong (something most people have issues with in forums), but I am simply tired of the ignorant ranting that lacks even one shred of real evidence. And Im not against improving classes either. but there's still NO DATA that shows that its necessary from a game breaking perspective. there's not even any data that shows that Jugg's are LOWER then the other classes. which is why your comment was ignorant. or your trolling. Ill stick with ignorant tho, since you didn't like the troll comment. My apologies. As a matter of fact, ill apologize in general, because it was fueled by my irritation of everyone who posts like you in general. so it wasn't all you...but you pretty much continued the cycle of ignorance. I'm not saying Im any better...which is why i look for real data. And so far the real data we have is...Bio and their comments...and players running timed tests. since that's what i got, that's what i go on. and so far, the tests back up what Bio has been saying. Edited February 26, 2012 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Fritz- Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I think you may be missing the point. I am not claiming that the class itself is flawed. I am a raid healer and I can count on one hand how many times I have been healed back using the Zen power sentinels have. Is this the awesome utility you refer to? The class itself is not flawed, but the choice of class lends itself to tragically poor players. You can cry all you like, but the hard statistics do not support your emotional engagement here. DPSers are terrible, and you're better off replacing them with robots. this point of view is just flat out wrong. ive been playing mmo games on and off for over a decade and i can tell you from experience that there are bad players in every class. the only thing you can say with certainty is "bad players are out there". though as an opinion, i would say bad DPS players have a higher chance to be allowed to be bad since in the majority of situations their role is considered less important, while bad tanks and healers generally get chastised immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhealThar Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 You can cry all you like, but the hard statistics do not support your emotional engagement here. DPSers are terrible, and you're better off replacing them with robots. Hard statistics? lmao You sound like a very fun individual to talk to/play with JK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt-orphan Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Having leveled both I find the Jugg / Guardian way better (my opinion) Places like EV we run with 1 tank, I slap on a few tank items and Tank the pylon event when we split IF the tank dies (it happens) I change form and taunt. pop a few CD's and keep Op;s going for a battle res PvP, I get more medals: 3 extra from using guard alone. Force push is awesome, push an enemy and leap to them is great in hutball. Pop every def CD and you make an awesome ball carrier. Rage (joint tree) gives a decent amount of burst damage essentially the 5% less damage is noting compared to the extra utility Edited February 26, 2012 by gt-orphan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) The price they pay for being able to duel spec as a tank? If they did the same dps as a Sentinel then why would anyone play a Sent? Good thing Bioware disagrees with you. A DPS spec is a DPS spec and they're going to buff jugg/guardian DPS. People will play sentinels because they want to, not because they're "the best". I suppose the main point is that there is absolutely no point in playing a useless toon that can ONLY dps, even if you suffer a mild amount of dps penalty. If you want to DPS, why would you care that you can only DPS? Edited February 26, 2012 by Caelrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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