Anni PvP Build - Empowerment

[Ballfro]

Interesting. Perhaps we should have a discussion on the value of 2/2 or 3/3 in the abilities that you claim need to have them.

 

 

 

 

The fact that you say "maybe subjugation" means you should stop posting.

 

 

 

 

Lololol.

 

I would love to have that conversation. Let me know what questions you have of why I chose the talents I chose.

 

I says MAYBE Subjugation, because some people have made good arguments to not take it, although to me, its a core talent.

[EasymodeX]

K so you'd rather waste two gcd's to get 4 rage instead of one gcd to build the same 4? and assault doesn't do "significantly more damage",

 

Assault does significantly more damage.

 

People with far better analytical capabilities than you have invested far more time actually assessing the value of force charge as a rage builder.

 

Perhaps you should try learning something for a change.

 

 

And most importantly... what else are you gonna put points in that helps your dps?

 

Check the PvE build I linked.

 

 

now kindly direct that "baddie" comment at yourself, where it belongs. especially for posting that "best pvp spec ever"...

 

It's only close to the best Anni PvP spec. There are some variations you can do depending on your priorities -- for example, Ferocity is useful if you actually want to blitz Alderaan/Voidstar or whore Huttball that badly. If you're slow on heal interrupts with force charge, you can take 2/2 CQ.

 

If you find a reliable opening sequence with immediate Annihilate to be critical (which in all honesty it's not, but if you really like it), that's an option.

 

However, I consider Defensive Roll a high priority considering how much AOE is spammed between CL procs, Death Field, pyro spam, DFAs, big Smashes, spam Smashes, Wither, Discharge. For only 2 points, you get a major reduction to a pretty good fraction of damage that is thrown out.

[EasymodeX]

I would love to have that conversation. Let me know what questions you have of why I chose the talents I chose.

 

Sorry, not interested. I'll let you go first, since I posted a PvP build first.

[EasymodeX]

I'd much rather have 3/3 dwm than 1/2 cloak of carnage... TBH i feel marauders should have a passive 1 point generation whenever attacked anyways. Retarded they don't.

 

and I don't see the point in 1/2 phantom... rather just get 0-30m ranged charge,t hing is amazing.

 

 

1. DWM is a filler talent. Points go into there as a last resort in the tier.

 

2. Cloak of Carnage is excellent, except it has an ICD. Due to its ICD, the second point is low-value. Thus, 1/2 CoC, and then filling in DWM enough to open the next tier.

 

3. 2/2 Phantom is stupid. Phantom is already "immunity" to any direct target attacks. Its only vulnerabilities are AOEs and DOTs. Defensive Roll adds a 30% damage reduction for AOEs. Defensive form adds damage reduction for most DOTs. You're not taking much damage at all with 1/2 Phantom. The first point itself reduces a ton of damage. The second point doesn't add much value.

 

4. 2/2 CQ is optional. Some people need it, some can live without. It basically depends on whether you can predict when an opponent is going to cast.

[Gruddy]

@ the OP: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrRzfhzZ0MZhr.1

 

This is a spec I think would fit your play-style (with the necessary points into subjugation).

Malice increases bleed crit %; stagger makes our charge count for more; and payback gives us a nice 10% heal (which can crit) in a clutch situation when we're cc'd.

 

This isn't necessarily a spec I would use, but its relatively close to what I use already.

[Tempsticks]

Wow. Is this guy for real? He says "IMO the healing is a must". Yet he's also the same guy who says that taking 3/3 in Malice is pointless for the 6% increase in crit, considering that you only get healed if your bleeds crit,

 

Stop posting. 4% is 1 in 25 bleed ticks of yours crits when his didn't (on average). There are plenty of ways to make Marauder work, the fact that you're about to burst a blood vessel because someone doesn't agree with you over a 4% crit difference is fairly pathetic. These numbers you talk about putting up, honestly screenshots or stop using them to give yourself credibility.

[JustinxDuff]

E

 

 

This is close to the best PvP build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrRzsGzZdMM.1

]

 

This is almost identical to my build. This is what I run atm and I have to agree with you Easy:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRMRdfGzZdMM.1

 

I run focused pursuit because I run with a premade. I constantly score in Huttball and guarantee a cap in Alderaan. My premade makes up for the DPS I lose without the bonus to centering as we are more concerned with winning the game. Pursuit is also very nice in voidstar after a door cap (sleep + pursuit = next cap, more often than not).

 

I think I will try taking 1 point from reduced cloak dmg and put it into increased centering like you mentioned. I don't know how I missed this.

Edited February 27, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[Vakyoom]

Assault does significantly more damage.

 

People with far better analytical capabilities than you have invested far more time actually assessing the value of force charge as a rage builder.

 

Perhaps you should try learning something for a change.

 

 

 

 

Check the PvE build I linked.

 

 

 

 

It's only close to the best Anni PvP spec. There are some variations you can do depending on your priorities -- for example, Ferocity is useful if you actually want to blitz Alderaan/Voidstar or whore Huttball that badly. If you're slow on heal interrupts with force charge, you can take 2/2 CQ.

 

If you find a reliable opening sequence with immediate Annihilate to be critical (which in all honesty it's not, but if you really like it), that's an option.

 

However, I consider Defensive Roll a high priority considering how much AOE is spammed between CL procs, Death Field, pyro spam, DFAs, big Smashes, spam Smashes, Wither, Discharge. For only 2 points, you get a major reduction to a pretty good fraction of damage that is thrown out.

 

So you're saying that 40% more damage is significant enough to waste two gc'ds?

 

if i get 2200 damage(each of mine does about 1100 damage with both rakata weapons) from two assaults that's great.

 

I'll do charge and get 900 dmg then get a gcd to do whatever i want with that 4 rage. i'm gonna use annihilate and add 2800-2900 dmg to that from the charge... so, assuming we can do math that's about 3800 dmg in that same window, if it crits even better... Your two assaults would both have to crit to match that damage in the same window of time.

 

But you can do math, right? You look at your abilities and test things out for yourself, yes?

So i guess you've tested and shown that less is more?

 

Then you should try using assault as much as possible cuz its a dps increase. Why bother with a rotation, or maximizing efficiency when you could just roll your mouse button all day weeeeee

 

Even if i do just pop deadly saber and then have to assault again for some reason, at least i got 4rage per 1 gcd instead of saying 2assaults > 1 charge + 1 major attack. that's just wrong.

 

 

edit - and to the guy above me, you'd never catch me with 3 min cd on my frenzy unless i'm carnage, and if i'm carnage then i'm PvE and the 4pc gives me 15sec off frenzy anywho... the fact that you skipped out on "valor" for the "zealous 2% heals" is just puzzling. You'd be able to use predation 2x as often for your premades. We're buff monsters and we need to be able to do that as fast and as often as possible. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Vakyoom

[JustinxDuff]

edit - and to the guy above me, you'd never catch me with 3 min cd on my frenzy unless i'm carnage, and if i'm carnage then i'm PvE and the 4pc gives me 15sec off frenzy anywho... the fact that you skipped out on "valor" for the "zealous 2% heals" is just puzzling. You'd be able to use predation 2x as often for your premades. We're buff monsters and we need to be able to do that as fast and as often as possible. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.

 

My (new) spec has 1 point in valor which I stated. I missed it in the link.

 

Edit:

Fixed: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRRRdsGzZdMM.1

 

I like the speed over the 1 additional centering.

Edited February 27, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[EasymodeX]

Even if i do just pop deadly saber and then have to assault again for some reason, at least i got 4rage per 1 gcd instead of saying 2assaults > 1 charge + 1 major attack. that's just wrong.

 

Charge does around 800 where Assault does 1000 with the offhand proc chance.

 

It gives you 2 "filler rage", which you spend on Vicious Slash. Generally speaking, you have sufficient rage to proc Pulverize every ICD, so that is a low factor.

 

So all you get is the damage from a VS. VS does a few hundred more damage than Assault.

 

 

So it's close to a wash. You lose some damage by using charge and "gain" it back by using VS. In order for you to actually obtain this "wash", you need to spend 2 filler points in the first tier of Carnage, and 2 points for Enraged Charge. That's 4 talent points for a net = 0 DPS delta. GG wasting talent points.

 

Instead, spend those 4 talent points on the VS crit talent and Ravager.

[ZyrenDelacroix]

That being said, to the OP, yes you can do the rotation your way but here is your mistake and it could be VERY costly...

 

I actually mentioned this is what you were probably concerned about.

 

So look at it like this with Enraged Charge:

 

Charge(4 Rage total 4)->Deadly Saber mid air(-3 Rage total 1)->Battering Assault(+6 Rage total 7), Rupture(-2 Rage total 5)->Annihilate +1 Rage, and you will have proc'd another rage from the talent Empowerment(which is why its so important) which would then allow you to rupture again.

 

Without Enraged Charge:

 

Charge(3 Rage 3 total)->Deadly Saber mid air(-3 Rage 0 total)->Battering Assault(+6 Rage 6 total)->Annihilate(-5 Rage +1 Rage(with talent) 2 total)-> Rupture(-2 Rage 0 total).

 

With the first option you will have DoT's up pretty much at all times. The second way puts you at missing out on DoT's for up to 9 seconds. Additionally, you are losing out on 6 more seconds of doing damage to your target and healing to yourself which could be the difference between a win or a loss in a 1 on 2, which happens a lot.

 

 

This is an interesting, but unrealistic summary of what you think will occur. Also, I'm curious about why you think that it is going to be worthwhile to use rupture again, so soon. It lasts 6 seconds, it will have been up for 3 at the end of your Enraged Charge rotation. You have at least 1 GCD to spare on something else before it becomes time to reapply rupture to the target (unless you're specifically talking about getting rupture up on multiple targets).

 

The reason I say it is unrealistic, is because you're acting like you'll never have enough rage without Enraged Charge to do the "superior" rotation. What about Empowerment? What about Defensive Forms? Even if neither of these occur, as I've said, against a single target I can get great use out of my GCDs, same as you'll probably have to do with yours before reapplying your Rupture.

 

Charge (3 Rage) -> Deadly Saber (0 Rage) -> Battering Assault (6 Rage) -> Rupture (4 Rage) -> Assault (6 Rage) -> Annihilate (2 Rage) -> Rupture (if it proc'd, and if it's about to fall off the target).

 

That is only in the absolute, worse-case scenario where nothing else has generated 1 rage before you go to use Assault or Annihilate.

 

 

As far as I can tell, nobody really has access to information (since we don't have parses, etc) that can answer my original question, which is whether 1/2 points in Empowerment is good enough due to its having an ICD.

 

 

@ the OP: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrRzfhzZ0MZhr.1

 

This is a spec I think would fit your play-style (with the necessary points into subjugation).

Malice increases bleed crit %; stagger makes our charge count for more; and payback gives us a nice 10% heal (which can crit) in a clutch situation when we're cc'd.

 

This isn't necessarily a spec I would use, but its relatively close to what I use already.

 

I find this spec to be quite interesting, especially if Empowerment is not essential. However, I'm also interested in the comments being made on CoC and Defensive Roll. The reasoning behind getting these seems rather appealing.

Edited February 27, 2012 by ZyrenDelacroix

[lollermittens]

Ok so after reading this tread, I'm going to be changing my spec up a bit to this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMcGzZhMbZh.1

 

Question that I have is since I can't rely on Rupture to provide me with a 30% slow, isn't sneaking in that other ability that we have (the 50% one, forgot its name) which applies a slow effect to the enemy going to be counterproductive? I mean, it's one more ability added to the rotation and it costs 3 rage (instead of the 2 rage points that Rupture costs; almost 1 rage since one point is refunded to you).

 

Otherwise I think this is a great built, I'm just really uncomfortable not having the 30% slow that's added on top of the Rupture.

Edited February 27, 2012 by lollermittens

[Vakyoom]

Charge does around 800 where Assault does 1000 with the offhand proc chance.

 

It gives you 2 "filler rage", which you spend on Vicious Slash. Generally speaking, you have sufficient rage to proc Pulverize every ICD, so that is a low factor.

 

So all you get is the damage from a VS. VS does a few hundred more damage than Assault.

 

 

So it's close to a wash. You lose some damage by using charge and "gain" it back by using VS. In order for you to actually obtain this "wash", you need to spend 2 filler points in the first tier of Carnage, and 2 points for Enraged Charge. That's 4 talent points for a net = 0 DPS delta. GG wasting talent points.

 

Instead, spend those 4 talent points on the VS crit talent and Ravager.

 

i'm reading what you've written and it simply just doesn't make any sense. Why would i be using my extra gcd on a VS if i've got my other abilities to worry about first. Sure VS would be on the list yes, but i've got rupture, annihilation, ravage, battering assault and even vicious throw to work in first.

 

Also remember that VS costs 3 rage initially, even if it does refund the 1 rage at the end every single time.

 

Also, what are your two "filler" points in carnage... If you're talking about defensive forms i'm going to laugh boldly in your face and call you good day. if you're actually picking cloak of carnage instead of defensive forms, you've got me on the floor i'm gonna be laughing so hard.

 

ALWAYS take defensive forms, no matter what spec you are, especially in PvP. That's the biggest no brainer of the whole class... 2 fury every time you're attacked. you're gonna make a conscious decision to not take that? really?! Dude...

 

I'm glad you're not the guy arguing about the malice talents but i'm not at all a big fan of the 15% VS crit because i don't find myself using it unless i have rage to burn and i usually don't. Again, this is PvP so keep all regards in mind to that scenario.

 

 

 

This is all still egregiously off topic, since this is a pvp thread and i won't be taking enraged charge in pvp-- as mentioned eearlier.

[Vakyoom]

Ok so after reading this tread, I'm going to be changing my spec up a bit to this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMcGzZhMbZh.1

 

Question that I have is since I can't rely on Rupture to provide me with a 30% slow, isn't sneaking in that other ability that we have (the 50% one, forgot its name) which applies a slow effect to the enemy going to be counterproductive? I mean, it's one more ability added to the rotation and it costs 3 rage (instead of the 2 rage points that Rupture costs; almost 1 rage since one point is refunded to you).

 

Otherwise I think this is a great built, I'm just really uncomfortable not having the 30% slow that's added on top of the Rupture.

 

for PvP seeping wounds is a must have. I only use hungering on my pve builds. Check this one out for PvP, i use it for a long time.

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_warrior/marauder/#::e8f2e3fe5f2dfef8ef16ef9

 

Effectively gives you all the control without sacrificing any damage. You can take or not take those points in Ravager, up to you i don't most of the time. 50sec choke is great for huttball tho.

 

I would recommend skipping both malice and enraged charge for PvP purposes. Both are overshadowed by better talents for warzones.

 

 

edit -- i'll look into 1/2 empowerment and 1/2 cloak of carnage tonite. sounds thrilling.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Vakyoom

[EasymodeX]

ALWAYS take defensive forms, no matter what spec you are, especially in PvP. That's the biggest no brainer of the whole class... 2 fury every time you're attacked.

 

The Enraged Charge discussion is, and has been, a PvE tangent.

 

Try to keep up.

[Vakyoom]

The Enraged Charge discussion is, and has been, a PvE tangent.

 

Try to keep up.

 

what... you make very little sense with that quote there... i still don't agree with your logic on "filler points". The bottom of the rage tree is all "filler points" but you take it to get somewhere. I don't want 6% crit for just my force attacks but i'll take it because what else are you gonna get that's doing you as much good?

 

I take defensive forms whenever i spec anything... to not do that would be silly and would just be not cool man, not cool.

[ZyrenDelacroix]

The Enraged Charge discussion is, and has been, a PvE tangent.

 

Try to keep up.

 

 

You are mistaken. The Enraged Charge discussion has been almost entirely about PvP (in this thread).

[dgrabs]

I ran about 10 warzones tonight without empowerment.

 

Honestly, I was never really rage-starved. Anni just builds so much naturally that empowerment really seems like a wasted 2 points to me now.

[Xerain]

I ran about 10 warzones tonight without empowerment.

 

Honestly, I was never really rage-starved. Anni just builds so much naturally that empowerment really seems like a wasted 2 points to me now.

 

are you running cloak of carnage?

[Vakyoom]

yep, that would be the deal breaker. If you're not running out of rage pretty constantly then you're either doing it wrong or you've got a healer/cloak of carnage/empowerment.

 

Or everyones just laying down in front of you. meh, i'm still gonna try out 1/2 emp and 1/2 CoC and see how that goes. 50% on a 1.5 sec iGCD should be nice.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Vakyoom

[lollermittens]

So I have finalized on a version of this Anni build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrRMcGzZhMbZo.1

 

I figured it was okay to only have one point in Malice since with the fury build-up is insane, Berserk is almost always up and therefore my DoTs are always critting.

 

My DPS substantially went up and I'm healing self-healing myself for at least 50-60k every game (I'm in full Centurion gear pretty much so my damage isn't the best; swapped many enhancements to +crit and +surge).

 

Anyways, great thread and good discussion.

[Vakyoom]

Just remember surge doesn't go past 77% and crit rating caps at around 300. keep those numbers in mind so you don't waste stat allocation.

 

and pesonally i'd rather take out the one point in malice and either put it in phantom or stagger. extra immobilization or extra protection is a lot more effective in a pvp scenario.

 

I also feel you could find better spot for those two points in empowered charge for pvp purposes.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Vakyoom

[lollermittens]

So 300 crit is the hard cap? That seems kind of low... Would that give me around 30% crit base? Right now my crit is my lowest stat since it hovers around 25%.

 

And yeah, I guess I could move that last point into Phantom/Stagger.

[Vakyoom]

So 300 crit is the hard cap? That seems kind of low... Would that give me around 30% crit base? Right now my crit is my lowest stat since it hovers around 25%.

 

And yeah, I guess I could move that last point into Phantom/Stagger.

 

yea around 30% is what you'd be able to achieve. You get a portion of crit from strength but a friend of mine added 80 crit rating to his already 300 rating and got a .07% increase, a major waste of allocation.

 

25-30% is fine for crit, as annihlation we get a lot of guaranteed crits... power/str is much more important.

[EasymodeX]

So 300 crit is the hard cap?

 

No. Both stats diminish continually. Crit Rating is just really poor past 300. Surge is rather hard to take past 77%, and isn't really worth it past 75%, but that's IMO.

 

300 and "77%" aren't magic numbers. 301 is slightly worse than 300, and 299 is slightly better value per point than 300.