What happened to MMO Communities?

[SNEAKYSIX]

Maybe thats why the community was so much better in the " old days". We would still log in and chat even if we only had an hour, but you never could really get anything useful done in that time. You take WoW for instance today, with an hour I can get all my dailies done or get a heroic or two run. MMO's today just breed the " go mentality" and when you get that you don't really have time to stop and communicate.

 

once again we're thinkin alike...... I would log onto GW just to chat to gamers, had half an hour, gonna head into Lion Arch and answer questions and generally good banter.

[Bloodbearer]

Thank you all so much for the constructive feedback! I never thought that my thread would garner so much intelligent attention! Seems to me that I may have been a wee bit jaded, but it's great to know that there are others like myself out there.

 

On that note, I would agree the idea that the game design philosophy, in regards to MMO's nowadays, seems focused around an instant gratification strategy. It seems that we who desire something more along the lines of a pre-WoW, 1990's MMO experience need to find a game structured in a way that is more focused on the journey than the destination.

[Ziso]

I know that I'm probably going to get a lot of "you old fogie" hate for this, but it's a question I can not stop asking myself lately. I've played MMO's for just about 11 years now. Started off with Everquest and have adventured my way through multiple others. The one thing that really drew me in to the genre was it's sense of community and companionship. I thought it was awesome that your character lived in a world with thousands of others.

 

Not only were the vast majority of those people helpful; they were friendly to boot! People actually went out of their way to help another player that they didn't know from a hole in the wall. It was astounding.

 

Now, however, I feel like every game that comes out gets worse and worse in regards to it's community. People live to grief, harass, and flame the **** out of each other. The worst part is that it's become accepted as the norm. No one says anything because they've given up trying to fix it.

 

So, is it just me? Is anyone else as disappointed as I am?

 

Its still very much alive in Unity/Dark Unity on the Red Eclipse server. Guild has been together for 7 years now and other guilds recommended us to newer players back in star wars galaxies due to the helpfull nature of the guild. We also were very well known for our social events we hosted, something thats harder to do in Tor given the lack of tools but we still try, ie did a server wide cantina event and have a hide and seek event coming up. Many players post in guild chat schematics or loot they have looted and ask if anyone needs before selling to a vendor, crafters help each other with equipment ie ship gear free. level 50 players help with resources to those crafters who look after the guild and when guild banks come live, they will be active for us with over 700k credits via donations ready to go into.

 

Many of our members will and have helped anyone who asks in general chat if they can and even when we have done guild datacron runs, if we see players, guilded or not, near us near the location of the datacron we invite them along for that one.

 

Im sure there are other guilds similar to this also, so there are some of us still around for the community aspect.

 

A few of the social events we have held (our youtube channel). This is only a tiny part of what we have done. The Tor recent stuff is in tor playlist section. http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityGuild?feature=mhee

Edited February 27, 2012 by Ziso

[Shinybum]

EDIT: As for myself... I'm on disability. I spend a great deal of time playing, across several alts. I still have the habit I have had for years. Once a week one of my higher levels will come back to either Dromund Kaas or Coruscant for a couple of days. Will do nothing but help younger characters with any Heroics they're having problems with, offer any advice for characters of classes I'm familiar with, and general make myself useful.

I always get tons of thank you's and so-on, but that isn't why I do it. I always give them my same statement at the end, "All I ask for payment is when you're higher up yourself, come back here and help out like I'm doing for a few hours. Pay it forward."

 

... and they have. I've seen them.

 

I do much the same thing while I'm out sightseeing or picking up heroics I missed while I was levelling. Last night, for example, the single word, "Help?" appeared in general and I decided to ask what was wrong. Turns out the player was trying to ask the Jedi she'd just helped kill a champion (we being Empire) to help her do the same thing so she could complete a bonus quest. The Jedi had taken her help and run for it.

 

I knew the champ she meant, and my Assassin had teamed up with a Merc to get that same kill when I was running the main mission so while she waited for the respawn I grabbed a taxi, made my way to her and gave her a hand, then went into the main mission instance with her to help out as well. It was fun, she made it through alive (as one will with cover from someone 20 levels higher in a solo instance) and went on happily to continue her journey as I went back to my ship (it was way past my bedtime).

 

It was pretty clear to me that this was her first character - and from the way she lost the bonus mission's dropbox I'd guess the first multi-part bonus she'd done. I can sympathise, since this is my first MMO and I'm still learning as well. Hopefully when the time comes she'll do the same.

 

Earlier that day I'd been fighting another champ solo, and saw a player sneaking around the edge of the fight towards the lockbox the champ was guarding. My immediate thought was "Ninja!" but then they turned and helped me out. Second thoughts, clearly, and even though we weren't grouped I made a point of sharing the loot with them and thanking them for their efforts.

 

There is definitely some sense of community out there among all the complaining and everyone-for-themselves attitude, but it needs to be built and nurtured. We can all do our bit there.

[Frigidman]

Stop and smell the roses, and chat awhile.

 

A notion that is lost in newer MMO's. Its go go go go go this that do that do this, no time to chat I have to jump into space where the chat mechanism is fubar'd, I have to kill these five hundred guys to get to a shiney bauble so I can gloat about it to people I actually never interact with!

 

*sigh*

 

I miss the good old days of SWG community. Granted that was just a year ago... but hey, fond memories

 

At least I can say "I recall the times where it was great, and got to experience it and know exactly how awesome that all was." Lot of new gamers today will never know that feeling.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Frigidman

[RabidPopcorn]

It used to be perfectly acceptable to look for companions while you were questing, regardless of whether you could solo the quest; try doing that in WoW now and most people will go:

"you don't deserve to finish that quest if u can't solo it" or "why do you need a group for a solo quest?"

 

When WoW was in the first year people would group up with random people they meet while questing; try doing that now and people ignore you. (SWTOR is ok in this aspect, most people would still group up for quests, for now at least)

[Frigidman]

(SWTOR is ok in this aspect, most people would still group up for quests, for now at least)

 

Not because its a more fun thing to do, but because there is a numerical scale assigned to doing such. I bet you if Bioware didn't put in Social Points, people would be grouping much much less than they are now.

 

My friend n I decided to make an alt each, and we only do missions together. We will not advance the character if the other person is not present. I tell you, the game is far more enjoyable that way. When I login and my friend isn't on... I'm like ... *sigh* guess I'll go give some attention to my neglected solo characters *sigh* then shortly log off after only like an hour of doing something.

 

Sure, grouping for every single mission is over kill... but its FUN. Its kind of also fun to see a whole mass of ten foes go down in five seconds of our combine AOE's. I do think our companions are getting upset though. We end up killing everything before the companions have time to react

[Avgasst]

I miss the chatting and respect people had for each other. It was the MAIN reason I played the game that is what MMOs are all about to me. You might as well have NPCs running instances with you in WoW because you care the same amount about them.

 

I can still name the best players in PvP and PvE Players on my 1st server Arathor (Kagematsuri, Mage) (Axxar, Mage) oh yes I did have a Mage as main but the point being when cross server came in I cant remember any of them because it was a new set of people each time.

 

Cross server ruined WoW and the community.

 

Perhaps when all the fan boys run off to TERA and GW2 we can chill out and enjoy the game

[Kendakon]

Regarding the last bit of your post - don't change the subject, content is content - nothing to do with the anti-social behaviour of our peers.

 

 

Actually, the attitudes of most players in MMOs these days is firmly rooted in the game design.

All of these new MMOs are hamster wheel gear grinds with nothing to do but slaughter every mob you see in order to progress. Gone are the days of logging into a virtual world and interacting on many levels with those around you. If you aren't killing things you aren't advancing your character in any way.

 

I miss those worlds too. I wish someone would make a new version of the original UO. I was a crafter/merchant in UO and it was my favorite game when it was first released, right up until the trammel split. It quickly when down hill from there with more gameplay changes.

 

My point being, until the worlds we log into get more depth back, and get away from the 'on-rails combat is the only way to upgrade your char/gear' game design, the community you speak of will only get worse for the wear. There needs to be multiple activities that are valid playstyles in and of themselves and not tacked onto your usual plethora of combat classes as mini games/side shows.

 

I don't hold any notions of building up a reputation in this game. I won't be joining the gear grind raid or PVP only end game. That is exactly the reason i wuit playing wow and EQ years ago. And the reason I didn't get past the free 30days of Rift. I'm only playing this game for the story telling, so I'll be rerolling one of each class. Also, because of this, I tend to play mostly solo, as the rest of the game is lackluster and pointless to me.

[Ransom_BiC]

I know that I'm probably going to get a lot of "you old fogie" hate for this, but it's a question I can not stop asking myself lately. I've played MMO's for just about 11 years now. Started off with Everquest and have adventured my way through multiple others. The one thing that really drew me in to the genre was it's sense of community and companionship. I thought it was awesome that your character lived in a world with thousands of others.

 

Not only were the vast majority of those people helpful; they were friendly to boot! People actually went out of their way to help another player that they didn't know from a hole in the wall. It was astounding.

 

Now, however, I feel like every game that comes out gets worse and worse in regards to it's community. People live to grief, harass, and flame the **** out of each other. The worst part is that it's become accepted as the norm. No one says anything because they've given up trying to fix it.

 

So, is it just me? Is anyone else as disappointed as I am?

 

 

You just have to find the guild forums that enjoy outsiders visiting for this sort of community. These sorts of forums here are fail for community building. And I'm still so disappointed that we don't have actual server forums. I don't think these guys understand how desperately we want/need them.

[Frigidman]

Cross server ruined WoW and the community.

 

Yeah. How does a single universe build community, when you end up playing with all kinds of random folk from parallel universes? This is why I believe cross-server stuff Bioware are introducing will be a bad idea. However since it will only be for pvp nonsense... I'm not too concerned, as I never pay attention to who I am killing or playing with in wzs, as its all a silly minigame not to be taken seriously

[Jeffleigh]

I agree that the community in mmos is not as friendly or tolerant as it used to be

 

I think it's probably because people have now been online for a much longer time and have a much higher experience level and skill in playing mmos

 

I know when I first started playing wow in 2004 - there were heaps of questions in general chat about how to do things - let alone when you did an instance together!

 

I think there is a very large section of the game community now who just want to get to end game as fast as they can and raid

 

I think mmos have also attracted a large section of the community - who, for a variety of reasons are able to spend a large number of hours per day on the game

 

Their expectations are really based on a total involvement and I just don't think any game developer could hope to keep up the content they demand

 

Their views tend to be totally unrealistic, and have no consideration of the vast majority of the "working and real life" group of people who play a game like this is a casual and relaxed way

Edited February 28, 2012 by Jeffleigh

[Obmil]

My view on this (being long time MMO player)...

 

MUDS, MOOs, mushes and the like needed community to survive. From their humble origins did many of the original MMO players come. Asheron's Call, EQ, Ultima Online, Meridian 57, and a few others made of the 'First Wave'. You helped each other 'cause you had to. In many of them there were no 'quests'. You went out and killed stuff, hoping for a good loot drop. Many had item drop or loss on death. You NEEDED to have friends on the off chance that you needed help with a corpse run.

 

SWG, later EQ, and many others came next in the second phase of MMOs. At first they were similar in design, and yet the community aspect was still there by necessity. Quests were still limited in scope and number, and player made (and driven) content provided some of the most memorable experiences of the game.

 

WoW brought upon it the sundering of the genre. Detailed and in depth quests, instanced dungeons, and many other changes. The stronger guilds continued to foster community, but as a whole the concept of community in an MMO suffered. Other games released during the WoW era mostly failed outright, or resorted to cloning the formula WoW had thrust on us. Community became less important, as you no longer needed help to survive. Death no longer had any real consequences, other than a small exp hit.

 

We are currently in 'The Splintering' when it comes to MMOs. AAA titles feel the need to be the next WoW killer. Investors demand it. The industry has in turn crapped out a slew of rancid bloatware titles over the past few years, each with the claim of being the WoW killer, while all the while ignoring the community aspect, the part that puts the M's in MMORPG. Cross server queuing has hurt the sense of community, as has sense of accomplishment, being and achievement. We have nothing as a community to loose. For comparison, check out the EvE online community. Once you get past the single players in an mmo, you'll see a true example of a thriving community. It's due to the real sense of risk versus reward their system has in place. If you want to access some of the more remote and higher reward zones, you need to get friends. In most other modern games, all you need to do is wait around in a queue.

[Force_Me]

I know that there are plenty of exceptions to the generalization, (and I appreciate every single one) but it's the mentality of it that gets to me. For altruism, and the desire to work together to accomplish something, to be rare is appalling.

 

Then you must be looking forward to GW2 and its WvW! If you haven't read about it, do a search... you HAVE to work together as a server to accomplish goals in WvW (and I don't mean "HAVE" in a bad way, like being forced to, but "get" to).

 

I think GW2 will bring the community aspect back into MMOs. Besides WvW, helping others in PvE won't be penalized... imagine that! an MMO that encourages helping others instead of penalizing players who are not grouped together.

 

You owe yourself to at least read up on GW2 and try it when it comes out.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Force_Me

[Slamz]

Everquest had the "strongest" community of any MMORPG I can recall playing.

 

I won't necessarily say it was the "best" community, just the strongest in terms of how many people would know each other and how strong those connections would be.

 

 

No dungeons were instanced so you ran into other players in dungeons all the time.

 

The game wasn't "quest based" -- it was "camp based". Whatever you wanted involved picking a spot in a dungeon and camping it for hours at a time. While this was a general source of complaint, it DID result in a strong community as the group camping the Froglok Lord room would need another player, or would announce that they're leaving so someone else could take it, etc.

 

The endgame also wasn't instanced so guilds had to coordinate. Again, not a popular feature, but it did force guilds to talk to each other whereas in instanced end-games, they don't.

 

Also, since nothing was instanced, there weren't exactly any group size restrictions. You could camp the Froglok Lord room with 6 people or 8 people or 10 people or 52 people if you really wanted to. It was more a question of diminishing returns. It was certainly easier to decide who was going on the next big raid: everyone was going because there wasn't some fixed "20 person" limit. You went with what you had.

 

 

 

The MMORPG genre has solved all of "problems" listed above but their solutions destroyed the community.

 

SWTOR is a 1-4 player game for the majority of people. I see other people in the world but I have absolutely no reason to interact with them in any way.

 

Also, EQ PvP was a lot more brutal, so you tended to quickly form bonds with people just to fight off the bad guys. SWTOR PvP servers are the same as PvE servers 99% of the time because the two sides are well separated through most of the campaign (and population density per square mile is so low anyway).

 

 

So the community isn't as strong because "community" has been designed out of the genre. Single player is in, community is out.

[bloomfireblade]

I know that I'm probably going to get a lot of "you old fogie" hate for this, but it's a question I can not stop asking myself lately. I've played MMO's for just about 11 years now. Started off with Everquest and have adventured my way through multiple others. The one thing that really drew me in to the genre was it's sense of community and companionship. I thought it was awesome that your character lived in a world with thousands of others.

 

Not only were the vast majority of those people helpful; they were friendly to boot! People actually went out of their way to help another player that they didn't know from a hole in the wall. It was astounding.

 

Now, however, I feel like every game that comes out gets worse and worse in regards to it's community. People live to grief, harass, and flame the **** out of each other. The worst part is that it's become accepted as the norm. No one says anything because they've given up trying to fix it.

 

So, is it just me? Is anyone else as disappointed as I am?

 

you have a point but bioware will not listen cause they claim to know of the problem but do not do anything

and that is the main problem this is what makes people leave cause they feel left alone

but i ask you what can be done to change that Bioware will continue to do as they pleases even if they display them self to public differently like they flawless experts witch I must sadly say they never where

Sure they fix some aspects over the last weeks

But ask yourself why did they do 2 years of testing even a beta testing that no other mmo has done and this is what is the result

I know how you feel we asked for an Next Gen MMO and what did we get a SWG Reloaded

Sorry you are right if the management is rotten it reflects on the community people are disepointed fed up with the false promises and I understand them

[lasmith]

Unfortunately, this problem is growing more and more common, and not just in MMO's. People have developed an attitude of entitlement. They feel that they deserve *****, where ***** = everything they want/desire, regardless of whether they have actually done anything to "deserve" it. What's more, to each individual, his/her desires are more important than those of anyone and everyone else. They aren't happy if they don't get what they want, so they are going to do their best to make sure nobody else is happy either.

 

Regarding MMO's, though, part of the problem is the companies themselves, most if not all of them. They cater to the lowest common denominators and the vocal minorities, even if those are not representative of the "real" community. I got slapped with a warning because I posted to someone that if they liked Game X so much better than this game, they should quit here and play Game X instead. Go figure...

[lasmith]

you have a point but bioware will not listen cause they claim to know of the problem but do not do anything

and that is the main problem this is what makes people leave cause they feel left alone

but i ask you what can be done to change that Bioware will continue to do as they pleases even if they display them self to public differently like they flawless experts witch I must sadly say they never where

Sure they fix some aspects over the last weeks

But ask yourself why did they do 2 years of testing even a beta testing that no other mmo has done and this is what is the result

I know how you feel we asked for an Next Gen MMO and what did we get a SWG Reloaded

Sorry you are right if the management is rotten it reflects on the community people are disepointed fed up with the false promises and I understand them

 

You have the right to your opinion, but I have the right to disagree with you and I do.

[Avgasst]

Actually, the attitudes of most players in MMOs these days is firmly rooted in the game design.

All of these new MMOs are hamster wheel gear grinds with nothing to do but slaughter every mob you see in order to progress. Gone are the days of logging into a virtual world and interacting on many levels with those around you. If you aren't killing things you aren't advancing your character in any way.

 

I miss those worlds too. I wish someone would make a new version of the original UO. I was a crafter/merchant in UO and it was my favorite game when it was first released, right up until the trammel split. It quickly when down hill from there with more gameplay changes.

 

My point being, until the worlds we log into get more depth back, and get away from the 'on-rails combat is the only way to upgrade your char/gear' game design, the community you speak of will only get worse for the wear. There needs to be multiple activities that are valid playstyles in and of themselves and not tacked onto your usual plethora of combat classes as mini games/side shows.

 

Nice to see some great posts from everybody.

 

I think people will pick up GW2 as its non sub but I think the pressure to have all the WoW features from the moaners on the forums might ruin it, I hope its not as bad as some of the people in this forum, so much hate for no reason.

 

I for one, when I find a guild after server transfers come in, will be sticking with SWTOR. Bioware make awesome games and as long as they dont do cross server PvE I will be sticking with it.

[Frigidman]

You know...

 

Bioware should just create a new server type that is for the GIVE ME NOW type players. Set it to give everyone everything on character creation. Level 50 in an hour, and quick travel to every spot on a 1 second cooldown. Nothing is discovered, Nothing is worked for, Nothing is difficult or time consuming beyond 5 seconds.

 

Then all those kinds of people can go to those servers and leave the rest of us alone to enjoy an MMORPG

[Iliac]

It seems some of the problems we are having with community in SWTOR is the fact that it appears that Bioware has done everything in its power to limit the community.

• No Global chat, only current planet.
  
• No Individual Server Forums.
  
• Inability to chat with opposing faction
  

 

Each of these items, and more, only serve to increase difficulty of players working together to achieve a great working community.

[Lunazen]

I think it's not only MMOs but online in general.

 

If I may make an old fogie statement as well: Unlike when the internet and online gaming was new, now people have been engaging in this nameless, faceless communication for years. If the person is young (say, 20ish), then they have had access to this form of communication most of their lifetime. It has changed the way people communicate, and taught an entire generation a way of communication that wasn't available to humans for 99.9999% of our history. I think that has a lot to do with the nasty snark online and in game.

 

I won't chat or ask quests in general chat anymore for fear of getting my head ripped off. In EQ2, especially at the beginning, totally different story and different feel.

 

Regarding the lack of a social feel, of community, I do agree with what others have said: Bioware left out tools that encouraged community, like the server wide chat and the server specific forums. I'd even go so far as to say the game needs chat bubbles, so when I am talking to a "person" standing right in front of me, I don't have to read an impersonal chat window. Perception, especially in a virtual world, is everything.

[Esproc]

It may be more prevalent in MMOs because of "hiding behind anonymity", but it is sadly more then just online.

 

I know the old phrase "Wait until you're mother get's home", and it had meaning.

 

Now with all the fear of punishing/grounding/removing toys,tv,computer,games access removed because of possible reports for abuse and repercussions, or the lack of responsible rearing of the children growing up by the parents, we face the consequences.

 

There is a lack of community in general when every one knew their neighbors and had some way of input.

 

Children are smart, they know the laws which have gotten out of hand, and they easily abuse them.

 

Not all children grow up with the lack of morals that so many have put aside for the "Me" attitude and the "entitlement" belief.

[RabidPopcorn]

I won't chat or ask quests in general chat anymore for fear of getting my head ripped off. In EQ2, especially at the beginning, totally different story and different feel.

 

Regarding the lack of a social feel, of community, I do agree with what others have said: Bioware left out tools that encouraged community, like the server wide chat and the server specific forums. I'd even go so far as to say the game needs chat bubbles, so when I am talking to a "person" standing right in front of me, I don't have to read an impersonal chat window. Perception, especially in a virtual world, is everything.

 

 

I agree that the community in mmos is not as friendly or tolerant as it used to be

 

I think it's probably because people have now been online for a much longer time and have a much higher experience level and skill in playing mmos

 

I know when I first started playing wow in 2004 - there were heaps of questions in general chat about how to do things - let alone when you did an instance together!

 

SWTOR is still fairly accommodating in terms of asking questions (cf WoW 2012), but I think sometimes when people troll it's a result of people having higher expectations nowadays - MMOs are becoming mainstream so MMOs attract a wider audience, many of whom I feel aren't here for the 'social' aspect, and also many players who were used to more fast-paced type of games.

 

MMOs have also evolved, older MMOs I've played used to allow for a measure of player-government or elections; compare this with the popular MMOs we have and it's hard to find any because of the high possibility that someone would abuse it.

Edited March 4, 2012 by RabidPopcorn

[Scorchess]

To me it just seems people can't see an MMO game as being fundamentally different to a singleplayer game anymore. There seems to be a general idea now that this game resembles KOTOR3 with a chatbox to a lot of people. And that idea influences everything.

 

And people have lost all pro-activeness. So many complaints about needing a dungeon finder to do the grouping for them when I usually get groups by just asking people who are in my level range outright if they want to join for an FP.

 

Meh, maybe WoW has just made people lazy. Or rather, made lazy people the target audience. And it sucks, because the one thing that makes an MMO special is being taken away.