People who ninja for their companions

[Revenaught]

Hi everyone,

 

As someone pointed out earlier, Principal Lead Systems Designer Damion Schubert has commented on this issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2813008#post2813008

 

 

 

 

Greetings LexiCazam. We are well aware of the post by Damion. It gave us no informatin on when or how or even what exactly he plans to do so the debate continues.

[DizzyStrife]

Maybe this will clear it up for all the people that think rolling need on an item for a companion over a player character is neither greedy or selfish.

 

Does that piece of gear help your current FP group? Does that piece of gear help any future FP group? Does that piece of gear help your PvP team? Does that piece of gear help any future OPs group? The answer to all those questions is a flat out and resounding NO. So the question is, who does that piece of gear you rolled need on for your companion help? YOU and ONLY YOU! That is why a lot of people see it as greedy and selfish. If all you care about is solo play, then don't bother grouping at all. Do it all by yourself since this kind of behavior is usually seen as only caring about you and only you.

 

NOW I am not saying that I agree with that. I am just trying to clarify what people are trying too say, they are just saying it poorly from what I have read.

 

Personally, I don't think the "usual" or "common" or "generally accepted" loot rules of all other MMO's really have any precedent in this game fully. This is the first MMO that I have played, and I have played a lot, that has incorporated such a heavy companion system where the companions are pretty much a necessity to solo play.

 

I guess it really just boils down too what you really care about. Whether you want your solo play in an MMO to go smoother, or if you want that FP or OPs group too go faster and smoother because you passed up on a piece of loot for your companion for the other player character that could have used it and maybe prevented that wipe on the next trash pull or boss.

[Vecke]

Hi everyone,

 

As someone pointed out earlier, Principal Lead Systems Designer Damion Schubert has commented on this issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2813008#post2813008

 

 

 

 

So based on this, there are some things we can safely infer:

 

They are leaning towards - but aren't sure - the idea that a new button and a restriction on the need button will help this issue.

 

They have given no statement about what they personally think.

 

They do not agree with the people that are saying this is a clear-cut issue and they do not believe there is a clear "right or wrong" position on this issue. The devs agree that companions and mods have changed the paradigm.

 

They don't see this as a high priority issue and have no intention of working it into the March patch.

 

They suggest we work it out for ourselves.

 

Me, personally, I think they might be waiting it out a bit to make sure the community standard on this issue is clear. While they think it's probably that "greed" is appropriate, they're not sure yet.

 

I actually came into this thread thinking it was pretty clear cut and everyone should roll greed for companions. After reading all the intelligent replies from the "need" crowd (ignoring the trolls, etc), I'm not so sure anymore. I kinda think rolling need for a companion - at the very least - is an idea that has merit, and it's an idea that is probably the most fair across the board. I think it's most certainly the simplest solution.

 

At the very least, I understand their perspective better and I don't think they're greedy little jerks. It genuinely is a difference on perspective, and one that has all but won me over.

[Vecke]

Maybe this will clear it up for all the people that think rolling need on an item for a companion over a player character is neither greedy or selfish.

 

Does that piece of gear help your current FP group? Does that piece of gear help any future FP group? Does that piece of gear help your PvP team? Does that piece of gear help any future OPs group? The answer to all those questions is a flat out and resounding NO. So the question is, who does that piece of gear you rolled need on for your companion help? YOU and ONLY YOU! That is why a lot of people see it as greedy and selfish. If all you care about is solo play, then don't bother grouping at all. Do it all by yourself since this kind of behavior is usually seen as only caring about you and only you.

 

That's simply untrue. At least 90% of my playtime (and I suspect a lot of other players too) is spent in 2 and 3 person groups, where a companion isn't just an option... it's an absolute 100% necessity. And in those small groups, someone with an ill-equipped companion is just as bad (if not worse than) someone with an ill-equipped character. So not having a fully equipped companion is disrespectful to any future group that's less than 4 people.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Vecke

[ferroz]

Hi everyone,

 

As someone pointed out earlier, Principal Lead Systems Designer Damion Schubert has commented on this issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2813008#post2813008

We've seen it... it doesn't actually say very much, just a vague remark that he'll work on getting it in the works. He doesn't even commit that it will make it into the game, let alone when, or what the actual implementation will be.

 

 

 

Just for clarification, loot ninjas in EQ had nothing to do with fairness or subjective arguments about who 'deserved' the item.

They also don't have anything to do with what we're talking about in this thread.

 

A ninjalooter (which is the actual eqterm) in EQ stole loot from; the people that are being demonized in this thread are not stealing anything from anyone.

 

The reason that folks bring it up is because it had less loot drama than these games that enforce NBG, and it had non-nbg loot as it's most common default loot rules in pugs.

[ferroz]

I would rather come out of a FP with one piece of gear for my class that is an upgrade than three pieces of BOP vendor useless gear while another person gets the one thing I could have used, to find it as useless as the three pieces of loot I got.

why is your desire to come out of a FP with one piece of gear for you class more important someone else's desire to come out of a FP with one piece of gear for his companion?

[Vecke]

We've seen it... it doesn't actually say very much, just a vague remark that he'll work on getting it in the works. He doesn't even commit that it will make it into the game, let alone when, or what the actual implementation will be.

 

 

 

They also don't have anything to do with what we're talking about in this thread.

 

A ninjalooter (which is the actual eqterm) in EQ stole loot from; the people that are being demonized in this thread are not stealing anything from anyone.

 

The reason that folks bring it up is because it had less loot drama than these games that enforce NBG, and it had non-nbg loot as it's most common default loot rules in pugs.

 

Oh, I agree with that 100%.

[ferroz]

I guess we are at an impasse. You define "fair" one way, I define it another.

You could always use the word correctly, instead of incorrectly. I mean, sure you can add all of that other stuff on top of it, but calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so.

[terminova]

I guess it really just boils down too what you really care about. Whether you want your solo play in an MMO to go smoother, or if you want that FP or OPs group too go faster and smoother because you passed up on a piece of loot for your companion for the other player character that could have used it and maybe prevented that wipe on the next trash pull or boss.

 

No, a piece of gear that randomly drops will not have a significant or measurable effect on the ability of the group to not wipe. If the group was going to wipe without the item, there is a good chance they will with the item.

[ferroz]

Sure.

When you run an instance with other players and then take the loot for your companion

No, the loot wasn't for other players. If I roll need on it and win it, I didn't take it from them.

 

You are not entitled to the gear just because you want it.

 

You are entitled to roll on it if you want it. So is anyone else, even if you don't agree with their reasons for doing so.

 

without consideration for the other players who may need it for their main character, it is a greedy act.

I do have consideration for them... but consideration doesn't mean that I think that their desires are more important than my desires. I think they're equally important.

 

I don't demand that they pass in favor of me; I expect them not to demand that I pass in favor of them.

 

I'd say that the only person who is clearly being greedy in the situation that you're talking about is the person who demands that other people defer to their desires.

Edited February 24, 2012 by ferroz

[Revenaught]

Maybe this will clear it up for all the people that think rolling need on an item for a companion over a player character is neither greedy or selfish.

 

Does that piece of gear help your current FP group? Does that piece of gear help any future FP group? Does that piece of gear help your PvP team? Does that piece of gear help any future OPs group? The answer to all those questions is a flat out and resounding NO. So the question is, who does that piece of gear you rolled need on for your companion help? YOU and ONLY YOU! That is why a lot of people see it as greedy and selfish. If all you care about is solo play, then don't bother grouping at all. Do it all by yourself since this kind of behavior is usually seen as only caring about you and only you.

 

NOW I am not saying that I agree with that. I am just trying to clarify what people are trying too say, they are just saying it poorly from what I have read.

 

Personally, I don't think the "usual" or "common" or "generally accepted" loot rules of all other MMO's really have any precedent in this game fully. This is the first MMO that I have played, and I have played a lot, that has incorporated such a heavy companion system where the companions are pretty much a necessity to solo play.

 

I guess it really just boils down too what you really care about. Whether you want your solo play in an MMO to go smoother, or if you want that FP or OPs group too go faster and smoother because you passed up on a piece of loot for your companion for the other player character that could have used it and maybe prevented that wipe on the next trash pull or boss.

 

If the gear in question was only useful in a group setting with a full group of other players it might hold water. Since the gear wether it be on me or them or my companion still helps contribute to solo play after it is aquired that argument regardless of how well it is worded ( I understand your just trying to clarify it) is a leaky as a sieve and holds no validity for me at all.

 

Simply put the gear they loot while in the group helps them do the daily missions easier. The gear I loot in the group and put on my primary used companion will help me do my daily missions easier. The fact that we were in a group when the item was rolled on does not mean it's only use is in a group situation.

[Setanian]

Sure.

When you run an instance with other players and then take the loot for your companion without consideration for the other players who may need it for their main character, it is a greedy act.

 

This is completely false.

 

The other players also get to roll need and might win too.

 

If you're saying I should not roll and let them have it, then I think you need to look at your own definition of greed.

[Galbatorrix]

Hi everyone,

 

As someone pointed out earlier, Principal Lead Systems Designer Damion Schubert has commented on this issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2813008#post2813008

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Owned.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[terminova]

Owned.

 

Explain.

[DizzyStrife]

That's simply untrue. At least 90% of my playtime (and I suspect a lot of other players too) is spent in 2 and 3 person groups, where a companion isn't just an option... it's an absolute 100% necessity. And in those small groups, someone with an ill-equipped companion is just as bad (if not worse than) someone with an ill-equipped character. So not having a fully equipped companion is disrespectful to any future group that's less than 4 people.

 

NO it is not untrue. IF you wanna talk about heroics or low level FP's or FP's that you out level, sure there you would be right, But are you honestly going too tell me that you are going to run an at level FP with a companion over a player character? And even then, an under geared player character is better than a geared companion unless you know some people that can actually micromanage themselves AND their companion better than another player character. I don't see that happening very often. Then we get into PvP and OPs where companions are not an option at all.

 

Not even sure why you qouted what I said in the first place since I never said anything about less than 4 people groups. I said FPs, OPs and PvP. FPs, I don't know anyone that would rather take a companion over another player character except in low level FPs and ones you way out level, OPs and PvP, companions aren't even an option. SO yeah.

[Setanian]

Owned.

 

If you're hanging your entire argument on what someone might do, and what the company might do, then really, it's a lost argument.

 

Even if they stated tonight that they are going to implement it, it means nothing until that button appears on the UI.

 

Also bear in mind, the only 'real' change is that they are not allowing players to roll need on an item that is not for their class.

 

What they will do, if they implement this, is relegate the companion dynamic to that of pet. And if that's what they want, well then they need to rethink all the other stuff too. Seems pretty crappy to me to tell me I have this wonderful companion but he is a second class citizen in their eyes.

[DizzyStrife]

No, a piece of gear that randomly drops will not have a significant or measurable effect on the ability of the group to not wipe. If the group was going to wipe without the item, there is a good chance they will with the item.

 

You clearly have not played many MMO's. I've seen many times where an extra 10HP or an extra 100 mana (force in this game) DID prevent a wipe.

[Setanian]

NO it is not untrue. IF you wanna talk about heroics or low level FP's or FP's that you out level, sure there you would be right, But are you honestly going too tell me that you are going to run an at level FP with a companion over a player character? And even then, an under geared player character is better than a geared companion unless you know some people that can actually micromanage themselves AND their companion better than another player character. I don't see that happening very often. Then we get into PvP and OPs where companions are not an option at all.

 

Not even sure why you qouted what I said in the first place since I never said anything about less than 4 people groups. I said FPs, OPs and PvP. FPs, I don't know anyone that would rather take a companion over another player character except in low level FPs and ones you way out level, OPs and PvP, companions aren't even an option. SO yeah.

 

Your argument is flawed in that you you consider the companion as secondary to your main player character. That's fine for you. How-ever, I and others feel that the companion is a direct extension of my player character.

 

Neither one is right nor wrong. And you simply cannot tell me different, just because it suits you.

 

 

In saying that, if you read the entire thread and the previous 6 version, you'll see no-one is asking for an unfair system.

 

You roll, you win or you lose. It's as simple as that. Anything else is selfish.

[terminova]

You clearly have not played many MMO's. I've seen many times where an extra 10HP or an extra 100 mana (force in this game) DID prevent a wipe.

 

That's a case of luck, not gear.

[Vecke]

Just to clear up a misconception I'm seeing here, NBG does not promote generosity and it doesn't promote any sense of giving or kindness. It promotes the exact opposite. NBG is about entitlement. It's a "mine" mentality.

 

I had moved on from EQ and was playing EQ 2 when NBG came to MMOs. Before that, here's how a roll went.

 

Everybody rolled for a piece and everybody got a fair shot at obtaining it. If you won the loot, it was yours. Period.

 

If someone else needed that piece they asked you for it. They never demanded it. They asked. If it was something that could make you a large sum of money, they often offered to pay you for it, because they knew you'd be losing some serious plat if you gave it to them.

 

At that point, you had the choice as to whether or not you could give it to them. And you know what happened in at least 90% of the cases I witnessed? The person gave (sometimes sold) the item to the person that needed it. And you know what almost always happened after that? The person that ended up with the loot said, "Thanks" and the other person said, "No problem" or "You're definitely welcome."

 

It didn't always happen that way, but it was the overwhelming majority of interactions.

 

Now, with NBG, when an item drops, there is no fair roll. If someone thinks they "need" it more than you, they expect it. They feel they are entitled to it, and if you roll for it, you're being selfish, even though they didn't contribute any more to the kill than you did. But because they can use it right now when your benefit won't come until later, they feel like they deserve it more than you deserve it. They feel absolutely entitled to that gear.

 

In my experience, generosity was far more prevalent before the NBG rules came along, bringing a sense of overwhelming entitlement with it.

 

In both scenarios, the person who "needed" it most usually ended up with the loot. But before NBG, they ended up with it because of the generosity of another player. With NBG, they end up with it because of a bullying system based on taking instead of giving.

 

NBG says that - even though you both worked equally to obtain the equipment - one person is entitled to it and another person isn't. I really don't see how that's fair and I most certainly don't see how that promotes generosity.

 

I know people are going to say that's my opinion, but it's actually not. Choice is - by definition - a requirement of generosity. And NBG absolutely removes choice from the equation. NBG does not promote generosity. It promotes entitlement.

 

"Can I have that?"

 

"Sure. Enjoy."

 

That's generosity.

 

"Give that to me or you will be ostracized, insulted, and shunned by all of us."

 

"Okay, okay. Here. Sheesh."

 

That's not generosity.

[Setanian]

You clearly have not played many MMO's. I've seen many times where an extra 10HP or an extra 100 mana (force in this game) DID prevent a wipe.

 

Sorry, this is incredibly wrong too. I have 30 years online, with 9 years end-game everquest raiding. I have never, ever seen a situation where 10 hps or 100 mana would have saved the day.

 

Sure, I've probably died many many times to the raid boss, because a heal was 2 seconds late etc etc, but really? If you're dying to a boss in non-raid content, where a 2 second delay means a death, you're out of your league.

[Galbatorrix]

The fact is, you NEED other players to run FPs. NEED. Unless you're out leveling it by a lot, you absolutely NEED them. With that being the case, show some common courtesy if you're planning to need roll for a lesser reason. It goes PC > Companion > Mods > Appearance. I don't care about your personal opinions on what's greater than/lesser than in that list. Those are the things that help you in the game the most from greatest to lowest. So, if you plan on need rolling for 2, 3 or 4 over someone needing for 1, ask first. It shows that you appreciate that the other 3 people are being nice enough to play with you for an hour in order to clear some content that you were interested in. If you don't care to show these people this courtesy, then you really shouldn't be grouping in the first place.

[Setanian]

Just to clear up a misconception I'm seeing here, NBG does not promote generosity and it doesn't promote any sense of giving or kindness. It promotes the exact opposite. NBG is about entitlement. It's a "mine" mentality.

 

I had moved on from EQ and was playing EQ 2 when NBG came to MMOs. Before that, here's how a roll went.

 

Everybody rolled for a piece and everybody got a fair shot at obtaining it. If you won the loot, it was yours. Period.

 

If someone else needed that piece they asked you for it. They never demanded it. They asked. If it was something that could make you a large sum of money, they often offered to pay you for it, because they knew you'd be losing some serious plat if you gave it to them.

 

At that point, you had the choice as to whether or not you could give it to them. And you know what happened in at least 90% of the cases I witnessed? The person gave (sometimes sold) the item to the person that needed it. And you know what almost always happened after that? The person that ended up with the loot said, "Thanks" and the other person said, "No problem" or "You're definitely welcome."

 

It didn't always happen that way, but it was the overwhelming majority of interactions.

 

Now, with NBG, when an item drops, there is no fair roll. If someone thinks they "need" it more than you, they expect it. They feel they are entitled to it, and if you roll for it, you're being selfish, even though they didn't contribute any more to the kill than you did. But because they can use it right now when your benefit won't come until later, they feel like they deserve it more than you deserve it. They feel absolutely entitled to that gear.

 

In my experience, generosity was far more prevalent before the NBG rules came along, bringing a sense of overwhelming entitlement with it.

 

In both scenarios, the person who "needed" it most usually ended up with the loot. But before NBG, they ended up with it because of the generosity of another player. With NBG, they end up with it because of a bullying system based on taking instead of giving.

 

NBG says that - even though you both worked equally to obtain the equipment - one person is entitled to it and another person isn't. I really don't see how that's fair and I most certainly don't see how that promotes generosity.

 

I know people are going to say that's my opinion, but it's actually not. Choice is - by definition - a requirement of generosity. And NBG absolutely removes choice from the equation. NBG does not promote generosity. It promotes entitlement.

 

"Can I have that?"

 

"Sure. Enjoy."

 

That's generosity.

 

"Give that to me or you will be ostracized, insulted, and shunned by all of us."

 

"Okay, okay. Here. Sheesh."

 

That's not generosity.

 

That's my era too.. And you are correct in every word.

 

You needed something, you formed group and went to Wall of Slaughter, and played round robin. If something zone wide dropped you rolled and sold or rolled and equipped.

 

Another part that's been lost here too is the idea that people just expect to be given the loot. In Everquest if you won something, you more often that not sold it to group member for half-nothing, but you both got something.

 

This NBG thing means one players gets the loot handed to them, while the others sing come by yah.

[Setanian]

The fact is, you NEED other players to run FPs. NEED. Unless you're out leveling it by a lot, you absolutely NEED them. With that being the case, show some common courtesy if you're planning to need roll for a lesser reason. It goes PC > Companion > Mods > Appearance. I don't care about your personal opinions on what's greater than/lesser than in that list. Those are the things that help you in the game the most from greatest to lowest. So, if you plan on need rolling for 2, 3 or 4 over someone needing for 1, ask first. It shows that you appreciate that the other 3 people are being nice enough to play with you for an hour in order to clear some content that you were interested in. If you don't care to show these people this courtesy, then you really shouldn't be grouping in the first place.

 

You can sing that song all night and all day. It does't make it right.!

 

Just as I need players they also need me.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Setanian

[Galbatorrix]

You can sing that song all night and all day. It does't make it right.!

 

Just as I need players they also need me.

 

 

Yep, YOU. Not your companion. I'm pretty sure no one has ever stated you shouldn't need roll for PC.