Deception PvP, and why you're doing it wrong

[Latrodectus]

I was going to wait until I was a Battlemaster to make this thread, but I've decided there's no more reason to wait. I'm only Valor 58 at the moment, and this thread isn't really some shining revelation as it is a consolidation of what people have a hard time with as far as Deception as a concept is concerned. If you don't understand how Deception is supposed to function in PvP, then this is the thread for you. If you don't accept my credibility since I'm not a Battlemaster, then at least take it from some one who has spent at least 500k credits on respecs during the last few months trying to understand what makes all 3 Assassin trees tick.

 

To start off, the spec. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one good Deception spec, or at the very least, this is the most viable one:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZRGbRkhrbtzZc.1

 

The only thing I could even suggest switching around would be Static Cling for Recirculation, if you happen to play with a group of team mates who can provide snares themselves. Having discharge come up 3 seconds earlier can be the difference between life and death in limited scenarios.

 

Don't go chain-shock spec, it's just not good, you gain too little damage and give up too much survivability. The 9% armor ignore from Charge Mastery more than makes up for it in the long run.

 

Now that that is out of the way, you have to understand what Deception brings to the PvP table that the other 2 specs don't. Unfortunately, it's not a lot, since all of Deception's utility can be covered by the other 2 specs, and almost always in a better way. I would say Madness is currently the best Assassin spec in PvP currently, if only because of instant-cast whirlwind. However I don't like Madness, for the same reason that most people don't like it, I rolled an Assassin to play a class much like a Rogue, not like a low-rent shadow priest/caster with stealth capabilities.

 

The biggest thing Deception lacks that the other trees are better at, is survivability, and this makes them easier to play hands down. However, Deception is completely capable of doing things the other trees can't if you can play it well, and if you can get the gear. I can't put enough emphasis on that last part, because it is really, really important. You've probably heard a lot of people say "boy Assassin sure gets better in Battlemaster Gear!' And people often come to the agreeable assumption that no sh*t, of course it does, every class does. BUT, these people are actually right, because Assassins get a lot of bang out of the Crit and Surge stats due to their critical damage talents, namely Crackling Blast and Induction. For those of you who leveled as Deception (as I did), this is part of the reason you had such a hard time, because you probably couldn't itemize yourself properly to really benefit from what makes the tree strong.

 

This is the other problem with Deception, our PvP gear is itemized like balls. If we could switch out every +accuracy stat with +crit/surge/power, we would be much better off. I know you could say this for almost every class, but it is more essential to Assassins than any other. Only a few PvP items are properly itemized optimally for Assassins, and if you want to really get the most out of Deception in PvP, you will have to reslot your enhancements with crit/surge or surge/power ones (as far as I know, crit/power doesn't exist yet). Until you can buy an ***-load of Champion Gloves (which have a surge/power enhancement in them that you can remove and place in all of your gear) you will probably have to ask an artifice to make you some epic adept enhancements. You can get these out of Operations if you're lucky: http://www.torhead.com/item/dyXw8Xh/advanced-adept-enhancement-25 but I don't PvE, so that's not an option for me. So unless you know an Artificer who has the Adept 24 or 23 schematics, you'll likely have to settle for Adept 22's, which give 18 endurance, 27 power, and 39 surge. Even though they're lower quality than what is already in the PvP gear, being properly itemized makes them better, period.

 

So what does a properly itemized Assassin bring to the PvP table that the other two specs don't? Unstoppable burst, basically. The other two trees can put out impressive numbers over a longer period of time, but they can't hold a candle to Deception done right. When you pop a relic (I suggest a +power relic for this combo), recklessness, and over charge saber all at once, only a tank or a CC train can stop you from murdering the sh*t out of some one. With good gear--not even best gear--you can drop 15k damage in 6-8 seconds no sweat, on just about anything but a well geared PvP tank (though I've dropped some pretty well geared tanks pretty quickly on occasion). The other thing about Deception, is that if you have a healer and/or a tank working with you, to up your survivability, Deception becomes the best PvP spec possible (for pure damage, that is, darkness tanks work very well). However, if you solo queue WZ's often, I would suggest going with one of the other specs if you like surviving while trying to carry bad team mates.

 

So now you understand the concept behind Deception, but how do you accomplish that? Stealth is obviously important because it lets you fight who you want to, when you want to. That said, being in stealth does nothing for your team until you make a move. Ever play Team Fortress 2? You know that dumb-*** spy who sits in stealth for 5 minutes with the Cloak and Dagger before coming out to kill one person and then sitting there for another 5 minutes? Don't be that guy. Rapid target acquisition is a skill you will have to excel at to play Deception well. Squishy healers and casters that are trying to stay at the rear of the fight are always high priority. Killing them might not always be the most efficient option, though. Mind Trap is a seriously under-used ability, and if you can reach a ranged player or a healer before they jump into the fight, you can be very valuable to your team. Especially if they use their CC breaker to get out of it and try to hurry into the fight.

 

Healers with guard on them are a different story completely. If you come across a healer with guard, killing him is usually not an option unless he or his tank are very, very stupid/poorly geared. The best thing you can do in this case is make the healer's life a living hell. Just stick on him as much as possible and interrupt him every chance you get. If you interrupt one spell and he tries to cast another, slap a stun on him with electrocute or do force cloak -> spike, and then when those are about to run off, hit him with a whirlwind. While doing this, you can throw out taunts and maybe some damage to help your team some more, but locking down the healer is your top priority. Remember that Low Slash and Overload also make useful interrupts if Jolt is on cooldown.

 

As a side note, openers for the Assassin are pretty limited. I usually go with maul because its high cost is off-set by the 6 seconds of dark-embrace while exiting stealth. Spike is decent, but the only time I use it really is for knocking people off ledges.

 

I hope this helps and will alleviate some of the confusion people have on this board.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Latrodectus

[LordbishopX]

Love deception PVP but my chain shocks are beastly but to each his own. The number of shocks and chain shocks I generate are crazy easily above 1k+ I wish this game had a real parser so claims can be verified instead of feelings.

 

The only class I have had tons of trouble with are sents/Maras I didn't realize how good guarded by the force was and was going for the kill wasting tons of resources doh 99% dr for 5 seconds in PVP from a crazy dps class is kind of insane.

Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Latrodectus]

Love deception PVP but my chain shocks are beastly but to each his own. The number of shocks and chain shocks I generate are crazy easily above 1k+ I wish this game had a real parser so claims can be verified instead of feelings.

 

The only class I have had tons of trouble with are sents/Maras I didn't realize how good guarded by the force was and was going for the kill wasting tons of resources doh 99% dr for 5 seconds in PVP from a crazy dps class is kind of insane.

 

Whenever they pop that I just pop force cloak and wait it out.

[LordbishopX]

Whenever they pop that I just pop force cloak and wait it out.

 

Yeah add in a mind trap and that dude is fed if his cc cds are up that's a deadly combo fc + mt is sweet as hell and pisses peeps off lol.

[Pwnyride]

I generally always open with force slow, u can follow it up with a maul while dark embrace is still up and it prevents people from really getting any distance on u while u burst em down.

[Delillo]

Your post really rings true. (I run the same spec as well.)

 

I turned 50 a week ago. I went from levels 46-49 when I could modify my armors to all crit/surge and really being an assassin-dropping opponents within 2 rotations to being an ineffective bug at 50.

 

I'm slowly switching over to cent with a tad of champion. 0-13 on bags which I know is pretty standard now. And it pains me to give up the the crit/surge on my gear for accuracy. I feel like I'm running in place since the gains I make in expertise seem somewhat offset by the loss of crit/surge to accuracy.

 

So I realize that I am in for a very long gear-grinding haul....

 

Combine this with the illum experience and how hostile it is to a deception assassin and I can very few reasons that my continuing experience in SWTOR could in any way be described as fun. (My buddy, a sorc, another new 50 joined the illum zerg and he completed his daily almost instantly - his healing allows him to tag almost every kill wheras as an assassin I could only tag enemies within 10m.)

[insendial]

That spec is pretty much the standard and has been for weeks. There are tons of ways you can move points around without changing the base functionality, though.

 

For example: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bcMZGGbRzhrbpzZc.1

 

3/3 EW instead of 1/3 because (even though the ICD is awful) 30% proc chance will happen more consistently than a 10% (once every 3 attacks post-icd on avg vs once every 10).

 

2/2 Lightning Reflexes because the extra force regen is hawt with a 19% proc chance (base shield chance + base defense chance + 4% from talent).

 

No Deceptive Power because you never, ever cap out after you've initiated and that 10 force is next to worthless as far as damage is concerned.

[kninekaji]

I think what the OP is assuming is that people expressing dislike for deception in pvp are "doing it wrong", but I do not think that is the case. What you have said is not some revelation, most understand all of the points you have and agree with it. Here are some of the issues imho.

 

The power up burst that you are referring it is great, however it requires several things to make it work; reck, relic and procs. Without these you will run into issues dropping people. So we have 90secs between our burst, not ideal, since we really are subpar once reck, relic (and potentially adren) are on cd.

 

Another issue is, our "burst" damage is quite easy to predict and mitigate vs. good players. Since we rely on duplicity and induction procs, we require a ramp up time on the target to build procs before actually bursting. Any good team will see the yoyo saber as soon as our first VS is used and can do quite a few things to counter us. First our 15k burst will probably be 7k since our target will get guarded while we ramp up to burst. Second, KB/Root (snare), or any stun/mez will neuter us. Yes, we can use our defensive cds, like FS offensively (which I found was needed vs. good players/teams to get the kill on healers or the kill target), however its 3secs, and once its down our ability to escape and reset for the next target is severely hindered (or simply escape alive).

 

To me this makes no sense, we are the easiest class to kill, yet we require as much ramp up time on target to do "burst" as say a jugg who has the mitigation to stand there and ramp up charges without dropping to 20% while doing so.

 

Once we are out of stealth, we will instantly become the new assist target for the opposing team (if they have a clue), not because of our burst, but because we are the softest class with the least defensive cds that require ramp up time to burst. Seems like a great formula for getting cblocked regularly.

 

Another issue (for me anyway), playing with a team, is that I felt I was not bringing much to the table. Here is an example, lets say we have two teams 4v4 at a resource in a wz each with a healer and 3 dps. I as a assassin, open on the healer assisting one of my dps teammates. In doing so I burn all of my burst cds and potentially FS and FC, so we get the kill. Now I am a sitting duck, so either i sprint away and try and restealth or stand there and hope my healer can keep me up with 3 dps beating on me. Either way I am no longer providing any "real" value to my team. My force regen is now crap since DS and DE are down severely limiting my dps and having tissue paper as armor really puts a strain on my healer and dps teammates who now have to guard, peel for me.

 

When rated WZs become available (and providing there aren't changes to our class), I highly doubt that any high rated team will take a deception assassin over say a operative for the stealth/burst role (if all other variables are constant, skill/gear/etc between the two players). We are simply subpar in comparison for this role.

 

I really wish deception was more viable for me, but as it stand right now. I feel that we bring much more to the table as a spec that I really had no intention of playing when I rolled this AC, darkness......

 

Just my $0.02

[insendial]

I think what the OP is assuming is that people expressing dislike for deception in pvp are "doing it wrong", but I do not think that is the case. What you have said is not some revelation, most understand all of the points you have and agree with it. Here are some of the issues imho.

 

The power up burst that you are referring it is great, however it requires several things to make it work; reck, relic and procs. Without these you will run into issues dropping people. So we have 90secs between our burst, not ideal, since we really are subpar once reck, relic (and potentially adren) are on cd.

 

Another issue is, our "burst" damage is quite easy to predict and mitigate vs. good players. Since we rely on duplicity and induction procs, we require a ramp up time on the target to build procs before actually bursting. Any good team will see the yoyo saber as soon as our first VS is used and can do quite a few things to counter us. First our 15k burst will probably be 7k since our target will get guarded while we ramp up to burst. Second, KB/Root (snare), or any stun/mez will neuter us. Yes, we can use our defensive cds, like FS offensively (which I found was needed vs. good players/teams to get the kill on healers or the kill target), however its 3secs, and once its down our ability to escape and reset for the next target is severely hindered (or simply escape alive).

 

To me this makes no sense, we are the easiest class to kill, yet we require as much ramp up time on target to do "burst" as say a jugg who has the mitigation to stand there and ramp up charges without dropping to 20% while doing so.

 

Once we are out of stealth, we will instantly become the new assist target for the opposing team (if they have a clue), not because of our burst, but because we are the softest class with the least defensive cds that require ramp up time to burst. Seems like a great formula for getting cblocked regularly.

 

Another issue (for me anyway), playing with a team, is that I felt I was not bringing much to the table. Here is an example, lets say we have two teams 4v4 at a resource in a wz each with a healer and 3 dps. I as a assassin, open on the healer assisting one of my dps teammates. In doing so I burn all of my burst cds and potentially FS and FC, so we get the kill. Now I am a sitting duck, so either i sprint away and try and restealth or stand there and hope my healer can keep me up with 3 dps beating on me. Either way I am no longer providing any "real" value to my team. My force regen is now crap since DS and DE are down severely limiting my dps and having tissue paper as armor really puts a strain on my healer and dps teammates who now have to guard, peel for me.

 

When rated WZs become available (and providing there aren't changes to our class), I highly doubt that any high rated team will take a deception assassin over say a operative for the stealth/burst role (if all other variables are constant, skill/gear/etc between the two players). We are simply subpar in comparison for this role.

 

I really wish deception was more viable for me, but as it stand right now. I feel that we bring much more to the table as a spec that I really had no intention of playing when I rolled this AC, darkness......

 

Just my $0.02

 

That's a lot more than 2 cents 0.o

[Astarica]

Any spec can do insane DPS when you do equivalent of Reckless + Adrenal + Relic. It's hardly something unique to Deception spec or even the Assassin class. And even there, the dependence on ramping time means even if 2 stacks of VS causes the next Shock to kill the enemy instantly, it is actually possible to defend against such a ridiuclous power with a good KB because the Deception Assassin probably has the weakest defense against KBs in the game (no Force Pull, no Force Speed breaking snare/roots, and only 3 seconds of Force Shroud).

 

Deception's biggest problem is lack of KB/snare/root protection. There are DPS classes with comparable survivality (e.g. Sorcs) but Sorcs are completely unaffected by those 3 aforementioned abilities since they're ranged, so their DPS will never be neutralized by a staple ability in PvP.

[Delillo]

 

Deception's biggest problem is lack of KB/snare/root protection. There are DPS classes with comparable survivality (e.g. Sorcs) but Sorcs are completely unaffected by those 3 aforementioned abilities since they're ranged, so their DPS will never be neutralized by a staple ability in PvP.

 

It does seem like disjunction should be in the deception tree - or at least in the 2nd level of darkness so its accessible. VS is just too important to pass up and try to make a "hybrid" deception build.

[LordbishopX]

Any spec can do insane DPS when you do equivalent of Reckless + Adrenal + Relic. It's hardly something unique to Deception spec or even the Assassin class. And even there, the dependence on ramping time means even if 2 stacks of VS causes the next Shock to kill the enemy instantly, it is actually possible to defend against such a ridiuclous power with a good KB because the Deception Assassin probably has the weakest defense against KBs in the game (no Force Pull, no Force Speed breaking snare/roots, and only 3 seconds of Force Shroud).

 

Deception's biggest problem is lack of KB/snare/root protection. There are DPS classes with comparable survivality (e.g. Sorcs) but Sorcs are completely unaffected by those 3 aforementioned abilities since they're ranged, so their DPS will never be neutralized by a staple ability in PvP.

 

So many take it to the face tho with out issue guess i will worry when peeps other than a ppl using guarded by the force blocks me lol. I guess it sounds good in theory but blocking discharge and shock together almost never happens in pvp a good low slash prevents that alot.

 

Things I have learned call me crazy maul without EW hits for 3k discharge without stacks can hit for 4k so really setting up isn't a issue it's a luxury in PVP to kill a player is to out dps em and interrupt them pretty much in my book. The shock as I come from no where to put the hurt pressure on em make em panic and run is sweet and then I just maul them til assassinate them to death lol.

Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[kninekaji]

So many take it to the face tho with out issue guess i will worry when peeps other than a ppl using guarded by the force blocks me lol. I guess it sounds good in theory but blocking discharge and shock together almost never happens in pvp a good low slash prevents that alot.

 

Things I have learned call me crazy maul without EW hits for 3k discharge without stacks can hit for 4k so really setting up isn't a issue it's a luxury in PVP to kill a player is to out dps em and interrupt them pretty much in my book. The shock as I come from no where to put the hurt pressure on em make em panic and run is sweet and then I just maul them til assassinate them to death lol.

 

Quoting numbers like "3k maul" and "discharge for 4k" do not justify anything you are saying. Are you accounting for gear differences? Sure I can hit those numbers without procs but it means nothing, because against geared people I do not see those numbers.

[LordbishopX]

Quoting numbers like "3k maul" and "discharge for 4k" do not justify anything you are saying. Are you accounting for gear differences? Sure I can hit those numbers without procs but it means nothing, because against geared people I do not see those numbers.

 

 

Just context all I face is other level 50 players period dressed from full battlemaster to fresh meat. Do I stop and check what gear they have? Nah its just a play style I enjoy if I had a parser I post the results for me the fun is taking peeps out in wz and on iLum period. Maybe I need to start recording and make a video of matches but anyone can edit and make themselves look godly lol.

 

What those numbers show is without procing those skills can still hit pretty sick in my book. My rotation in pvp is what wil kill the sob in front of me right now that's off of cool down lol.

Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Brat]

Question...

 

What numbers are we shooting for at this point after the surge nerf in regards to surge/crit/power?

 

You mentioned pulling mods out of the champion gloves, are those to replace every enhancement slot in your set?

[LordbishopX]

I think 30%/36%? crit 70% surge maybe 80% hard cap now so after that its power more power. Everything has diminished returns now after a while I think maybe not power but it all will the way the game is headed. Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Kajin-Diablo]

My crit multiplier usually sits at about 78% with crit chance about 27%.

i have all champ gear and had 2 extra set of gloves so i took the mods out of those for extra crit/surge also. like the op said in the original post that takes time to do tho.

I myself am in agreement with the op i love Deception and for ppl that think they cannot dps a enemy down without having to "rev" up their buffs i.e induction, blah blah. i sometimes dont even start out with VS. most of the time in fact. usually with something like Electrocute or mind trap, depending on the situation. Stealth and cc's are more useful than most ppl realize. if you mind trap someone and they break it. MIND TRAP again lol then start your rotation. lol it will piss them off and you have already broken their get out of cc free card.

[LordbishopX]

My crit multiplier usually sits at about 78% with crit chance about 27%.

i have all champ gear and had 2 extra set of gloves so i took the mods out of those for extra crit/surge also. like the op said in the original post that takes time to do tho.

I myself am in agreement with the op i love Deception and for ppl that think they cannot dps a enemy down without having to "rev" up their buffs i.e induction, blah blah. i sometimes dont even start out with VS. most of the time in fact. usually with something like Electrocute or mind trap, depending on the situation. Stealth and cc's are more useful than most ppl realize. if you mind trap someone and they break it. MIND TRAP again lol then start your rotation. lol it will piss them off and you have already broken their get out of cc free card.

 

yup yup its why I also like to spike them to the face and have low slash ready to unload makes em panic and feel helpless any edge in a dog fight.

[Brat]

Thanks for the response...

 

Another question since people are actually replying to me...

 

Which weapon should I be shooting for? Are the PvP weapons worth it since they don't have slots for mods? I've heard you can crit on the artifice orange weapons and get an augment slot as well. Am I better off getting a PvE saber and can I pull the mods off that for an orange saber with an augment slot?

 

At this point it's seriously confusing as I keep hearing different things

 

Edit: Oh...yeah, almost forgot. What's your expertise sitting at in full champ gear? There's currently no way to boost that as the armor mods are locked correct?

Edited February 21, 2012 by Brat

[LordbishopX]

Thanks for the response...

 

Another question since people are actually replying to me...

 

Which weapon should I be shooting for? Are the PvP weapons worth it since they don't have slots for mods? I've heard you can crit on the artifice orange weapons and get an augment slot as well. Am I better off getting a PvE saber and can I pull the mods off that for an orange saber with an augment slot?

 

At this point it's seriously confusing as I keep hearing different things

 

The damage on the PVP weapons are SICK and nothing is better imho I can't wait for my battlemaster lightstaff now in the future all these should be freed up with mods. Even without mods they are insane what my champs is 136 rating with expertise I think....

 

 

Champion Stalker's Double-bladed Lightsaber

Binds on Pickup

Melee Main Hand

363.0-544.0 Energy Damage (Rating 136)

Durability: 200/200

Total Stats:

+121 Endurance

+97 Willpower

+48 Expertise Rating

+72 Power

Item Modifications

Color Crystal (56)

+41 Endurance

Requires Level 50

Requires Weapon Proficiency: Double-Bladed Lightsaber

Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Brat]

Good to hear...I was worried that I would be gimping myself just going with the PvP saber and I really wasn't looking forward to a bunch of PvE just to get the mats to hopefully crit an orange saber with an augment slot.

 

Although I would be interested to see the difference in damage of the two...especially after they unlock the hilt slot so it can be moved. I imagine having that extra augment slot would be pretty huge.

[LordbishopX]

Good to hear...I was worried that I would be gimping myself just going with the PvP saber and I really wasn't looking forward to a bunch of PvE just to get the mats to hopefully crit an orange saber with an augment slot.

 

Although I would be interested to see the difference in damage of the two...especially after they unlock the hilt slot so it can be moved. I imagine having that extra augment slot would be pretty huge.

 

Yep yep for sure augment slots are insanely nice and just makes what's great mo betta...

[Astarica]

Assuming you didn't start with stacks of Induction/EW/whatever, as long as a Deception Assassin is out of melee range he's pretty much zero threat. Nobody is going to fear a Discharge or Shock that isn't powered by anything.

 

Now that's usually true with all melee classes, except Deception has the fewest way to get back into melee range. You have absoloutely no way to get out of root aside from your generic CC breaker. Even snares is painful since Force Speed only lasts 2 seconds, so while you're fine while using FS, you'll still be snared after it wears off in 2 seconds since your FS doesn't break snares. Now Force Shroud is a good generic 'solve everything' ability, but even here it only lasts 3 seconds as opposed to the standard 5 in most common builds.

 

The location of Disjunction (11 Darkness) hurts pure Deception builds greatly. If you have Disjunction, you'd still be easy to kill but at least your DPS cannot be easily neutralized by movement effects. Glass cannons might be viable, but you're not even a glass cannon since you're not hitting anyone when someone tossed you + snare/root, and this happens all the time to every melee so don't expect to be able to avoid this situation.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Astarica

[LordbishopX]

Assuming you didn't start with stacks of Induction/EW/whatever, as long as a Deception Assassin is out of melee range he's pretty much zero threat. Nobody is going to fear a Discharge or Shock that isn't powered by anything.

 

Now that's usually true with all melee classes, except Deception has the fewest way to get back into melee range. You have absoloutely no way to get out of root aside from your generic CC breaker. Even snares is painful since Force Speed only lasts 2 seconds, so while you're fine while using FS, you'll still be snared after it wears off in 2 seconds since your FS doesn't break snares. Now Force Shroud is a good generic 'solve everything' ability, but even here it only lasts 3 seconds as opposed to the standard 5 in most common builds.

 

The location of Disjunction (11 Darkness) hurts pure Deception builds greatly. If you have Disjunction, you'd still be easy to kill but at least your DPS cannot be easily neutralized by movement effects. Glass cannons might be viable, but you're not even a glass cannon since you're not hitting anyone when someone tossed you + snare/root, and this happens all the time to every melee so don't expect to be able to avoid this situation.

 

It be awesome if true but its just a theory that hardly ever happens in the time I been playing and pvping heck my top 3 companions are all wearing cent level gear. So you can keep saying it till your face turns blue it just doesn't happen enough to matter lol. My counter is normally just jolt/electrocute and force slow and force speed to close or fc and or f shroud its a matter of what is needed to win.

 

My biggest issue is getting knock off the bridges in huttball lol.

 

Deception is fun and normally I almost always initiate the fights or disappear until I can lol getting snared is not a big deal at all.

Edited February 21, 2012 by LordbishopX

[sTRaTeGiiZe]

Stealth and cc's are more useful than most ppl realize. if you mind trap someone and they break it. MIND TRAP again lol then start your rotation. lol it will piss them off and you have already broken their get out of cc free card.

You may have made them waste their CC break, but at the same time you filled their resolve by mind trapping a second time. So essentially you accomplished nothing?