Hybrid Sorcerer/Sage Utility is OP in PvP

[Acyu]

Tumri, I've actually followed your posts for quiet some time right now. You have no idea what you're talking about. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING, you've written so far about the Sorc/Sage, is nothing more than a paper, outsider, point of view about the class.

 

Pretty much.

 

It's hilarious to me that every single one of these "OP sorcerers" enter fights pre-shielded without debuff and/or low debuff timer.

 

These sorcerers also have all their CDs off cooldown. They have their force speed, force shield, knockback, and whirlwind on demand.

 

How OFTEN does someone engage a sorcerer at the moment in the game where there is a perfect or near-perfect pre-shield timer and all CDs?

 

And by this logic shouldn't the sorcerers opponent also have ALL his CDs off cooldown and everything pre-buffed?

 

If that is the case, there are many classes that can burst a DPS sorcerer down in ~10-20 seconds.

[Balmuck]

Pretty much.

 

It's hilarious to me that every single one of these "OP sorcerers" enter fights pre-shielded without debuff and/or low debuff timer.

 

These sorcerers also have all their CDs off cooldown. They have their force speed, force shield, knockback, and whirlwind on demand.

 

How OFTEN does someone engage a sorcerer at the moment in the game where there is a perfect or near-perfect pre-shield timer and all CDs?

 

And by this logic shouldn't the sorcerers opponent also have ALL his CDs off cooldown and everything pre-buffed?

 

If that is the case, there are many classes that can burst a DPS sorcerer down in ~10-20 seconds.

 

I find it humorous.

 

 

Do these people know that full Balance actually gets a ability that roots them for 2 sec, doesn't respect CC immunity and basically turns anyone fighting the Sage into their own personal puppet.

 

 

 

I think I need to find that guy Chris's full Balance video where he kites idiots around like it's nothing.

[GrandMike]

I find it humorous.

 

 

Do these people know that full Balance actually gets a ability that roots them for 2 sec, doesn't respect CC immunity and basically turns anyone fighting the Sage into their own personal puppet.

 

 

 

I think I need to find that guy Chris's full Balance video where he kites idiots around like it's nothing.

 

And then its not a hybrid build. Full balance is still best 1vs1 spec, but what terribads forget is that its a group/team game. Thats why most sorcs/sages go 13/28 because ist best GROUP spec. And no, you dont have all CC like OP claims. OP has no clue about these classes.

 

Blind on shield pop is BAD kind of CC that only terribads use to screw their team over just so they could live few seconds longer (95% of time when its not actually needed). I *fishslap* any sage having this because

a) he sacrificed 20-30% DPS for this, and there are much better ways to do this

b) screw team over for teh lulz

 

The number of people i encountered that actually have this traited is negligible (and we all know how many sors/sages are out there).

 

So no, its not a problem and it wont become a problem, what IS the problem are bad end tree talents which MUST GET SERIOUS BUFF, and nonexisting "hybrid problem" will "resolve" by itself.

Edited February 21, 2012 by GrandMike

[RaugMoss]

Tumri, I've actually followed your posts for quiet some time right now. You have no idea what you're talking about. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING, you've written so far about the Sorc/Sage, is nothing more than a paper, outsider, point of view about the class.

 

...

 

In all your or any other people's post, you basically fail to mention one simple fact about this game. No matter how much CC one class has, as far as PVP is concerned, they can generally only stack TWO on you.

 

That being said, I guarantee that 95% of your games end with you being top DPS. The other 5% is the Sage/Sorc out damaging you obviously... and it's obvious that you have a grudge against him.

 

As far as 1v1 combat is concerned, I'll guarantee that you'd basically win about 60-90% duels between you and a Sorc. Your class has enough utility and sustainability to annihilate any Sorc, no matter how much they CC you. Actually, you can probably last longer in a fight with 10% HP left than any Sorc/Sage going between 100%-0.... This also applies to your own HP. The first 90% damage done to you is almost null and void.... If you got good backup, you have enough abilities for even the worst healers to cap you off without you worrying about dying. On top of that, you have the best snare in game, the best gap closer and all of that stacking on people and rooting them, while completely not respecting CC immunity. While that all is going on, you still have two stuns left that basically keep a whole group CC'ied without them being able to do anything.

 

...

 

It's easy to talk about other people's classes yet you forgot to mention..

 

You have a root on your Saber Throw.

 

Best gap closer in game via leap.

 

Interrupt in that leap.

 

Regular interrupt.

 

Stun.

 

AoE mez.

 

4 sec vanish that basically grants you a free escape when being focused

 

When low HP, you have the SINGLE MOST OP ability in this game. Not only does this mitigate absurd amount of damage, it's also has no static absorb amount, so in any bigger fight, you'd basically mitigate enough damage to compare to a Sorc/Sage dying 10x in that span.

 

...

 

Sir, you explained it all like a pro.

 

1 additional point:

Sorcerers do that damage by lots and lots of AOE. Marauders generally can reach that numbers by dpsing single target style mainly (their aoes arent as good as sorc).

 

What this means is -> marauders/sentinels can dps A LOT more than sorcerers. This stands out in 1v1 pvp, where even if you kite marauders, you lose due to their insane dps whenever they are near touching you.

 

AND a marauder just doesnt die in 2 ccs. We cant beat you, and we accept that fact. The pvp SHOULD be a rock-paper-scissor game.

 

From what i noticed, dps powertechs/juggernauts/marauders can beat sorcerers easily, they are advantaged against us.

 

For the hybrid spec talk:

U get backlash and electric bindings -> u lose TOO MUCH damage.

U get damage -> u lose all that CC capability.

 

Matter of choice.

[Tumri]

Tumri, I've actually followed your posts for quiet some time right now. You have no idea what you're talking about. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING, you've written so far about the Sorc/Sage, is nothing more than a paper, outsider, point of view about the class.

 

So what you're saying is "I know you have all this text but I still don't FEEL OP in gam."

 

The funny thing is, your class, the Marauder, is basically the best group DPS class in this game. As far as your damage is concerned, the only class that can touch you, or counter you type of play style and damage is a Sorc/Sage. This is under certain conditions of course and especially if you aren't focusing that said Sorc/Sage. Either that or you're just angry that you can't LOLHERPADERP the good Sage/Sorc without them CC'ing you and fighting back.

 

1. Marauder is the most difficult class to master in this game.

2. Tanks counter Marauders.

3. I'm not angry at all. That doesn't mean their CC isn't over the top.[/color

 

In all your or any other people's post, you basically fail to mention one simple fact about this game. No matter how much CC one class has, as far as PVP is concerned, they can generally only stack TWO on you.

 

That's not even remotely true. The resolve bar can take a bubble mez, knockback + root, and a stun before being *almost* full. At that point you can just use force slow to wait out the 4-5 seconds that it takes for the full bar to drain. Excessive CC isn't countered by resolve to the extent you're talking about.

 

That being said, I guarantee that 95% of your games end with you being top DPS. The other 5% is the Sage/Sorc out damaging you obviously... and it's obvious that you have a grudge against him.

 

Yes because most players on my server aren't that great(yet). I've seen Sorcerers that backpedal and immediately knockback when a melee gets close. They don't even check to see if I've positioned myself up against a wall they just KB->Force Lightning. A lot of them don't use force slow at all throughout a match.

 

As far as 1v1 combat is concerned, I'll guarantee that you'd basically win about 60-90% duels between you and a Sorc. Your class has enough utility and sustainability to annihilate any Sorc, no matter how much they CC you. Actually, you can probably last longer in a fight with 10% HP left than any Sorc/Sage going between 100%-0.... This also applies to your own HP. The first 90% damage done to you is almost null and void.... If you got good backup, you have enough abilities for even the worst healers to cap you off without you worrying about dying. On top of that, you have the best snare in game, the best gap closer and all of that stacking on people and rooting them, while completely not respecting CC immunity. While that all is going on, you still have two stuns left that basically keep a whole group CC'ied without them being able to do anything.

 

1. Why are we talking about 1v1? This is a group PvP game.

2. I'll win about 40-50% of the time against a decent Sorc in a 1v1. Keep in mind 1v1 is a Marauder's greatest strength and a Sorc's greatest weakness.

3. Quit raging about "Undying Rage". It's clear you're not very good if you don't even do what the bad Sorcs do(use a CC and kite for the duration). It sounds like you tried to tank a Marauder who was low on health one too many times and now you're convinced that they're invincible. Statements like "The first 90% damage done to you is null and void" is beyond stupid.

4. "...if you've got backup" Why he heck are you twisting your 1v1 argument into a group v group? If you've both "got backup" then the Marauder loses 100% of the time. They're terrible against groups.

5. It's A snare. Don't exaggerate. Juggernauts have an AoE snare with the same resource cost. We get about the same thing other melee get.

6. Stacking on people and rooting them? What exactly are you referring to? Our AoE mezz? The one that's stupid to use because it fills half the resolve bar(backlash fills 1/4th by the way)?

7. Erm.. I think you're talking about Sorcerers now. We have one AoE CC and outside that we have Force Joke which is just terrible.

 

I don't really care to dissect your class by CC abilities but if you count in your interrupts and roots, your class has more usable CC... actually, almost 2x more, than any Sage will.

 

Is that a joke? You realize Marauders have the least CC of any class right?

 

It's easy to talk about other people's classes yet you forgot to mention..

 

You have a root on your Saber Throw.

 

We don't have Saber Throw but I'll assume you're talking about Deadly Throw. It's one of the highest talents in the "Carnage" tree. Anyone using Carnage is worthless. We don't have viable hybrid specs(Our most effective one does about 900DPS).

 

Best gap closer in game via leap.

 

It's a very good ability.

 

Interrupt in that leap.

 

Only bad players waste it on interrupts unless they're closing the gap at the same time. It's only useful for interrupts against people you KNOW are bad and won't bother to kite you

 

Regular interrupt.

 

Yes. Typical of what other melee get. A melee range but shorter CD interrupt than Jolt.

 

Stun.

 

Channeled Stun. It's the worst in the game and it's not really useful outside of giving you 3 seconds for CDs to come up or let DoTs tick. It's a lower duration than your Electrocute and it's worse in every possible way.

 

AoE mez.

 

Our best(and really only) CC. Backlash is better the mass majority of the time. This has a 1.5m CD and 6s duration. You can just take a talent and get one on a 20 second cooldown with automatic activation when you're taking damage.

 

4 sec vanish that basically grants you a free escape when being focused

 

This only really gives you a full escape if you can juke them and have them run the other direction. 4 seconds isn't enough to escape as much as get into a better position/give time for your better attacks to come off CD. It's also good for avoiding an attack that's close to hitting. Sorcerers can escape far better with Dash not to mention their massive CC capability

 

When low HP, you have the SINGLE MOST OP ability in this game. Not only does this mitigate absurd amount of damage, it's also has no static absorb amount, so in any bigger fight, you'd basically mitigate enough damage to compare to a Sorc/Sage dying 10x in that span.

 

Like I said before it seems like you were stupid and tanked someone in Undying Rage. This typically gets used to distract someone. It's only useful sub 20% because otherwise you sacrifice too much health. It's also difficult to get off at sub 20% because executes(not from Sorcerers but the ones that have them) typically kill you at that point. Sorcerers can use any number of CCs or simply dash away to counter this. 5 seconds is enough to do about 3-4k damage in ideal situations(if I'm not CC'd). I'd trade this for a non-channeled stun or a shorter CD(2-3s shorter) on Force Leap. It's not nearly as good as you think it is. I honestly don't like it it. It's a gimped Paladin Bubble that isn't good but causes your opponents to rage. It's just fuel for the "ZOMG OP THEY NEVER DIE AT 1% HEALTH!!ONE1" people.

 

Here is the deal.

 

 

You level a Sage/Sorc. Actually get it to a higher level and play against some of your better premades. I would respect your opinion after that. Till then, your TOR head paper thin reasons for why some other class is op... is pretty much nul and void in my opinion.

 

I already am. I'm getting my Sorcerer up semi-slowly. It's going to be my PvP focused alt and my main will be for PvE. No point using my Marauder for rated WZs unless the new WZ is something crazy and has some sort of global CC immunity or something(Lol doubt it).

 

One more thing.

 

If you're skilled as you claim, I as a healing Sage, would ALWAYS, I mean 100% of the time, without a *********** question, pick you up in my team over a DPS Sage. If you played a Sent that is.

 

If you take Sentinels over Sorcerers for rated WZs I'll enjoy the free wins(assuming it's cross server).

 

Why do you think that is?

 

Probably because you're not a very good/experienced. Anyone that did WoW's arenas or rated BGs with decent success(meaning at minimum 2400 rating) would know to take Sorcerers over melee other than maybe one operative for stealth cap tactics.

 

Edit:

 

Also, take out those stupid mitigation and damage calculations... Those only apply if beating on paper dolls. If you're gonna post numbers, you better work out the proper formulas first... I can tell you for a fact that one shield does not make you a tank... Last I checked, 3k absorb doesn't magically increase your armor rating and triples the effect of that 3k absorb. That static absorb also means that if one good DPS beats on you, you've basically turned that into a flash heal because they take it down in one hit. Not only that, unlike certain other abilities, that bauble does not magically increase with more people beating on you, this means that if you're getting focused, you're not gonna bauble yourself up and become Jesus Christ. You either run for your life or you're screwed.

 

You missed the point entirely. The calculation was done in a way that favored the Sorc. If you escape and don't let people beat on you for as long then the Sorc outright wins in terms of mitigation. The point of that was to show that even if the Sorc get beat on for that long(unlikely) he still has the advantage in terms of mitigation. I used the higher 40k damage over 20 seconds to show that even if there's more than one guy beating on a Sorc the bubble STILL outclasses others in terms of mitigation. If I used a pre-casted bubble in the calculation it wouldn't even be close. Other classes have 20% damage mitigation on long cooldowns. You have a bubble that absorbs 3.5k every 20 seconds. You come out ahead in the mass majority of situations.

 

What you forget to mention is that EVERY OTHER CLASS has almost better ways of mitigating damage, especially if being focused by multiple people. If you're so convinced that Sages can mitigate more then heavy armor, how about you beat on a Sage, let him pop his shields and heal himself and then let a PT just stand there and do nothing while you beat on him. I guarantee that you'd kill the PT slower then the Sage who constantly puts up his shields and heals himself.

 

That was the point. That's EXACTLY what the calculations shows. The Sorcerer still wins. If you just have someone beat on the two of them while both are getting bombared with heals the Sorcerer would require less healing because Bubble is better than armor unless you're tanking nearly the entire enemy team.

 

My response is in red.

[Tsubodia]

why is this thread being remade again? surely everything that can be said has already been said. why dont the mods just cut through the threads and elete the **** in it psted by ppl with no clue so an actuall discussion can be made.. but then qq wont allow that. forums are a waste of time atm

[Tumri]

And then its not a hybrid build. Full balance is still best 1vs1 spec, but what terribads forget is that its a group/team game. Thats why most sorcs/sages go 13/28 because ist best GROUP spec. And no, you dont have all CC like OP claims. OP has no clue about these classes.

 

So you say balance is the best at 1v1(which DOES NOT MATTER in group PvP). Then you go on to say the hybrid spec is far better in group PvP(the type that MATTERS). Then you use a spec that IS NOT what I am saying is overpowered. Can you please at least read the OP? I'm not talking about your precious 13/28 spec.

 

Blind on shield pop is BAD kind of CC that only terribads use to screw their team over just so they could live few seconds longer (95% of time when its not actually needed). I *fishslap* any sage having this because

a) he sacrificed 20-30% DPS for this, and there are much better ways to do this

b) screw team over for teh lulz

 

a) 8% at most. Not 20-30%. Read the OP or just stop posting in a way that suggests you know what you're talking about with regards to the OP.

b) It's an enormous boon for any team to have an on-demand AoE mezz on a 20s(or less) CD.

 

The number of people i encountered that actually have this traited is negligible (and we all know how many sors/sages are out there).

 

Any knowledgeable PvP DPS Sorc will be using a CC heavy hybrid spec. If you never encounter the build why do you care if it's nerfed?

 

So no, its not a problem and it wont become a problem, what IS the problem are bad end tree talents which MUST GET SERIOUS BUFF, and nonexisting "hybrid problem" will "resolve" by itself.

So since the current CC heavy hybrid is OP they would need to buff end talents up enough that it's even MORE OP than the CC heavy hybrid. That wouldn't work. They need to nerf the CC heavy hybrid first and then buff the 31-point talents a bit.

 

My response is in red.

[Tsubodia]

My response is in red.

 

Any knowledgeable PvP DPS Sorc will be using a CC heavy hybrid spec. If you never encounter the build why do you care if it's nerfed?

 

thats a huge fallacy in itself. your role in your premade makes a huge influence on your spec sop dont make stupid comments

[TetraCleric]

That's not even remotely true. The resolve bar can take a bubble mez, knockback + root, and a stun before being *almost* full. At that point you can just use force slow to wait out the 4-5 seconds that it takes for the full bar to drain. Excessive CC isn't countered by resolve to the extent you're talking about.

 

Uhhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

Knockback = 25% resolve.

 

One stun (from a sorcerer since that's what the thread is about) = 90% resolve, or the softcap

 

If you knockback and then use any stun, full resolve. You use any stun, and than any resolve building ability afterwards, full resolve.

 

 

I'd also like to point out that any knowledgeable PvP sorc would probably be using the 31 mad build because it's utility is superior to the hybrid because of having a root on a separate ability. But, I see that you know everything about PvP and being a Sorc, so maybe I'm wrong.

Edited February 21, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Tumri]

thats a huge fallacy in itself. your role in your premade makes a huge influence on your spec sop dont make stupid comments

 

If you're talking about pre-mades then I don't understand how you can defend Sorcerers. In any premade Sorcerers>All with 1 Juggernaut for Huttball.

[Tsubodia]

If you're talking about pre-mades then I don't understand how you can defend Sorcerers. In any premade Sorcerers>All with 1 Juggernaut for Huttball.

 

if your convinced other classes cant dominate huttball just aswell your very deluded

[Sosajoshua]

Okay first off im just saying no offense to anyone.

 

As a Sorcerer I agreed we (and Sages as well) are very powerful in a WZ both while fighting in a group or alone, however I wouldnt consider ourselves OP. Generally from my observations Juggernauts and Marauders dont even do half as well as Sorcerers do...even Guardians and Sentinels do better but from what ive seen Republic players are more healers than the Imperial players who are DPS so that works well together. Still i can be defeated by any melee class if the player is good at using his/her class.

 

So you want to talk about specifics maybe!? Everyone will run their own spec, play their own style, and do things how they choose. Im sure not even Sorc/Sage lands top 3 each wz so really IMO I think (and yes this could very well go for me as well) people say one or more classes are OP because they themselves havent tried to defeat them and they try to use specifics of a class to justify it.

 

Like I told someone a while ago. You are a marauder and have trouble defeating Sorc/Sages? Here is a hint: get in close

[YMIHere]

Once again you're back to your math with bubble + light armor = greater than other armor. Stop and listen, bubble can be cast on others and we don't have defensive cooldowns. So math this out for me, bubble + light armor vs bubble + not light armor + defensive cooldowns. Double bubble? You can also have that. If we're going to pick whatever we want out of arguments, there's nothing stopping a double bubble on you.

 

a) 8% at most. Not 20-30%. Read the OP or just stop posting in a way that suggests you know what you're talking about with regards to the OP.

 

The 8% figure is under ideal conditions (standing still, blasting away) from v2 page 81 I believe. The at most, was your own figure from who knows where. Ideal conditions for best dps require you not to sit on wrath procs, so when the condition is not ideal anymore and you're on the run what do you use? Deathfield? Should have grabbed that bonus at the top of the madness tree. DoTs? Should have grabbed those bonuses at the top of the madness tree. Shock? Ok, you still get the same damage from there. If you're forced to run, a CC hybrid is going to lose more damage than 13/28 or full madness would if they're forced to run. 8% at least dps loss is what you were looking for.

Edited February 21, 2012 by YMIHere

[Spifnar]

Love the part where you say that marauder dots are weak...way to nerfherd

[DimeStax]

Also now that I've re-read your original post there are several flaws and mostly opinionated points.

 

Marksman sniper knock back attached to ambush has a shorter cool down then the sorc one.

 

"150% speed boost that is the best of it's kind." thats opinion, snares last 2 seconds, sprint lasts 2 secs, personally I would take the longer duration mara one which cant be completely nullified as easy.

 

"A bubble that provides between 3.5-4.5k absorption." Grats on changing what you posted near the end of the other thread, 3.5k is pretty much MAX with the 20% talent, so you need to also add in (talented) to that.

 

Average health pools? 16.5k is about a buffed battlemasters hp pool, only people in PVE really get higher hp.

 

"10. A 2s duration stun if the above immobilize (MEZ) is broken by damage." which will also fill the resolve bar.

 

"12. A 1m CD 30 yard friendly pull which provides an incredible amount of potential for tactical PvP plays and can save allies from the most dire of situations. [Extrication]" again stop putting opinion in the list of abilities, just use facts. A 30 yard range pull that pulls a friendly target to the casters location.

 

"13. Self-Healing(Dark Infusion/Dark Heal while target(s) CC'd or not in LoS)." how about some facts about these? a 1.5 second cast 50 force cost heal for about 1.2k, and a 3 second cast 50 force heal for about 2.5k hp?

 

"The above bubble has a 3 second AoE immobilize attached to it." WHEN TALENTED, make that more obvious.

 

"If the bubble is cast on other players then they may also manually click off the bubble(or let it break/expire) to trigger the CC." not working as intended, one of many many many many bugs the sorc/sages have, nerfing based on this would be lol.

 

"9. A 60s(45 if talented) CD single target immobilize. [Whirlwind]" with a cast time, unless talented, takes like 4 points to get it 45 second and instacast.

 

"14. An AoE damage ability with no target cap and a 30% AoE slow to all enemies in area. [Force Storm]" A Channeled aoe damage ability with a 30% aoe slow that does xxx damage (because it is one of the lowest aoe damages in the game)

 

"15. A 30 yard range 4.5 second cooldown Cleanse ability that renders many DoTs and debuffs useless. [Purge]" focus on the part that stats many dots and debuffs useless, state what types of dots it dispells.

 

I'm going to stop there, but you need to use only facts during the fact part of your QQ and leave the opinion till later.

 

Guioki, I have reviewed YOUR notes you added to the OPs posted and changed them as necessary.

 

"150% speed boost that is the best of it's kind." thats opinion, snares last 2 seconds, sprint lasts 2 secs, personally I would take the longer duration mara one which cant be completely nullified as easy.

 

If you're going to criticize the OP for attaching opinions on to facts then you need to exclude yours as well.

 

Average health pools? 16.5k is about a buffed battlemasters hp pool, only people in PVE really get higher hp.

 

I'm a Gunslinger and I have 16k unbuffed HP in full Champion minus 2 peices. Your information is wrong. Also, even if the average unbuffed HP is lower like you claim then it would make that 2.7-3.5k bubble a larger percent of the caster's total HP making the OP's point even stronger.

 

"10. A 2s duration stun if the above immobilize (MEZ) is broken by damage." which will also fill the resolve bar.

 

We all know that stuns fill a resolve bar, but that doesn't mean that one class can have 99 stuns (purposefully overexaggerated) and claim that they are still balanced because everyone has a resolve bar.

 

"13. Self-Healing(Dark Infusion/Dark Heal while target(s) CC'd or not in LoS)." how about some facts about these? a 1.5 second cast 50 force cost heal for about 1.2k, and a 3 second cast 50 force heal for about 2.5k hp?

 

Thank you for taking the time to educate us on these abilities details, but if you are implying that these heals aren't significant or overpowered when considering class balance then you are mistaken. Running away and healing is a critical part of a solid sorcerer's gameplan and these abilities must be included when considering the utility this class has.

 

"If the bubble is cast on other players then they may also manually click off the bubble(or let it break/expire) to trigger the CC." not working as intended, one of many many many many bugs the sorc/sages have, nerfing based on this would be lol.

 

Thank you for agreeing this is not working as intended. This is just one of many broken abilities this class has that the OP is calling attention to.

 

"9. A 60s(45 if talented) CD single target immobilize. [Whirlwind]" with a cast time, unless talented, takes like 4 points to get it 45 second and instacast.

 

Please also note that this is not just an immobilize, but a MEZMERIZE type of ability which prevents all actions by the target until it is broken. Please also note that Sorcerers are the only class in the game to get a Polymorph type of ability that works on players in PvP combat on top of their numerous other CCs.

 

"14. An AoE damage ability with no target cap and a 30% AoE slow to all enemies in area. [Force Storm]" A Channeled aoe damage ability with a 30% aoe slow that does xxx damage (because it is one of the lowest aoe damages in the game)

 

Once again you are using opinions my friend. You told the OP to not include opinions yet you just told him here to add one in there. Also consider that a Snipers/Gunslingers Oribital Strike/XS frieghter Flyby (considered one of the games highest AOE abilities) does 2082 damage over 9 seconds http://www.torhead.com/ability/eXVefIK/orbital-strike, and Sorcerers Force Storm does 2002-2374 damage over 6 seconds while snaring targets in the affected area http://www.torhead.com/ability/7eXKWUa/force-storm. I don't see how you consider this ability to one of the weakest in the game when it appears to me to be by far the best.

Edited February 21, 2012 by DimeStax

[TetraCleric]

Guioki, I have reviewed YOUR notes you added to the OPs posted and changed them as necessary.

 

 

 

If you're going to criticize the OP for attaching opinions onto facts then you need to excluse yours as well.

 

Average health pools? 16.5k is about a buffed battlemasters hp pool, only people in PVE really get higher hp.

 

I'm a Gunslinger and I have 16k unbuffed HP in full Champion minus 2 peices. Your information is wrong.

 

 

Awful formatting aside, you're a Gunslinger. Your healthpool is supposed to be bigger. In full BM gear, as a Sorcerer, you have about 16.5k buffed. Assuming you use both PvP relics.

Edited February 21, 2012 by TetraCleric

[YMIHere]

Please also note that this is not just an immobilize, but a MEZMERIZE type of ability which prevents all actions by the target until it is broken. Please also note that Sorcerers are the only class in the game to get a Polymorph type of ability that works on players in PvP combat on top of their numerous other CCs.

 

Just one note, all blinds are mezzes.

[DimeStax]

Just one note, all blinds are mezzes.

 

6 seconds on blinds as opposed to 10 for Whirlwind.

[Tumri]

Once again you're back to your math with bubble + light armor = greater than other armor. Stop and listen, bubble can be cast on others and we don't have defensive cooldowns. So math this out for me, bubble + light armor vs bubble + not light armor + defensive cooldowns. Double bubble? You can also have that. If we're going to pick whatever we want out of arguments, there's nothing stopping a double bubble on you.

 

Being able to cast it on others isn't a disadvantage. It also doesn't mean you just assume everyone has a bubble either. A Sorc can keep a bubble up 100% of the time with minimal effort. Other classes cannot have a bubble up 100% of the time unless they have a pocket Sorc. If you count bubble being active for others you might as well substitute the external bubble with an external heal for the Sorc to balance it out. This is class damage mitigation without external help I'm talking about and you can't use external bubbles in such a calculation. You can argue other classes have defensive abilities but the majority of them are on long(3m) cooldowns and can't be relied upon to be up all the time like Sorcerer bubble.

 

The 8% figure is under ideal conditions (standing still, blasting away) from v2 page 81 I believe. The at most, was your own figure from who knows where. Ideal conditions for best dps require you not to sit on wrath procs, so when the condition is not ideal anymore and you're on the run what do you use? Deathfield? Should have grabbed that bonus at the top of the madness tree. DoTs? Should have grabbed those bonuses at the top of the madness tree. Shock? Ok, you still get the same damage from there. If you're forced to run, a CC hybrid is going to lose more damage than 13/28 or full madness would if they're forced to run. 8% at least dps loss is what you were looking for.

 

This is your assumption. The 23/18 hybrid actually gets a lot of damage from Wrath Proc+CL as well as instant-cast CL procs. You could argue a 13/28 hybrid is better for 100% on the move damage but that's unrealistic. A Sorcerer kiting will typically still be casting the majority of the time while using CCs and Force Sprint to create distance repeatedly.

 

Red=Response

[TetraCleric]

Y u no respond to me Tumri?

[YMIHere]

6 seconds on blinds as opposed to 10 for Whirlwind.

 

Now you know better than that, your own blind is 8 seconds and AoE. Not to mention, if I happen to perfectly time a hit at the end of my 8 second mez to turn it into a 2 second stun your resolve bar is filled completely, so why wouldn't I just use my 4 second stun at the end like you could?

[DimeStax]

Awful formatting aside, you're a Gunslinger. Your healthpool is supposed to be bigger. In full BM gear, as a Sorcerer, you have about 16.5k buffed. Assuming you use both PvP relics.

 

Either way, less HP just emphasizes the point further by making that 2.7-3.5k a bigger percentage of the Sorcerer's HP. The point is that the bubble can give the Sorcerer 15-25% HP every 20 seconds instantly.

[Tsubodia]

Either way, less HP just emphasizes the point further by making that 2.7-3.5k a bigger percentage of the Sorcerer's HP. The point is that the bubble can give the Sorcerer 15-25% HP every 20 seconds instantly.

 

 

you sem to miss that if a sorc has generally less hp than every other class the first bubble bring hp into allignment. add in the fact that sorcs defensive is well.. the bubble and only the bubble compared to every other class its a mute argument.

 

give me warriors 99% dmg reduction and you can have my bubble. i could also add that if you cant kill a sorc in 20seconds your really are very very bad

[DimeStax]

Now you know better than that, your own blind is 8 seconds and AoE. Not to mention, if I happen to perfectly time a hit at the end of my 8 second mez to turn it into a 2 second stun your resolve bar is filled completely, so why wouldn't I just use my 4 second stun at the end like you could?

 

You know better than that =). Flash grenade is 8 Seconds PvE and 6 Seconds PvP. As for the theory crafting; I don't know, why don't you use your 4 second stun instead? I don't understand your post because if you think the 2 second stun after the whirlwind is useless then why spec into it in the first place?

[DimeStax]

you sem to miss that if a sorc has generally less hp than every other class the first bubble bring hp into allignment. add in the fact that sorcs defensive is well.. the bubble and only the bubble compared to every other class its a mute argument.

 

give me warriors 99% dmg reduction and you can have my bubble. i could also add that if you cant kill a sorc in 20seconds your really are very very bad

 

Lol can't kill a Sorc in 20 seconds then I'm bad. That's hilarious considering the amount utility they have in the form of CC's/Healing/Force Sprint to prolong the fight. Sorcerers are extremely hard to kill if they aren't simple; I don't think any decent sorcerers are running into battle and dying in 20 seconds everytime. This post wouldn't even be necessary if that was happening.