Premade vs Pug makes the „average“ player quit

[Telurian]

I have been seeing a lot of hate for premades recently and I actually do understand the problem. I have been doing premades myself since the days of DAOC and actually liked to be able to beat 40 players with our 8 man group in open field combat. In this environment premades were needed to fight the zergs because running solo simply was not an option for most classes, so you could either zerg or build a premades and I never liked the zerg mentality.

 

Later in WOW those premades changed. There were no longer fights against larger groups but it changed to farming lesser organized and mostly poorer equipped players. There was no skill involved and the graveyard farming became boring very quickly. At least for the players that actually liked PvP. Anyone who liked a to have a challenge stopped doing premades and did Arena to get some kind of challenge. Matchmaking was introduced with a reason because a large part of the player base just wanted to do BGs for fun without being dependent on forming a group just to do a few BGs.

 

Now we are here in SWTOR and have the same problem again. The argument of the pro premade group is:

You can always build a group yourself, make “friends”, this is an MMO…

 

What they ignore is the fact that bioware wants to keep the masses playing and the masses do not like to be forced in any kind of group.

All premade players that say those fights are in any way fair or balanced are either incredibly bad or just lying. I have been running in a premade for a while (we made BM pre Ilum) and we have yet to loose a single game of hutball against a non premade group. This is plain an simple boring for us and very frustrating for the groups we play. We still do it to get the 3 wins we need each day, but I actually feel bad for the groups we play.

 

Just to use a real life example: I have been playing soccer for more then 20 years now and I am playing in a regular team and we play other regular teams once each week. There is a league and those games are more or less fair.

There is also a soccer field nearby that we use to play for fun once or twice a week. Often there are quite a few players from my regular team and some hobby players and guess what we do not do:

We do not play with our regular team against those hobby players because it would be incredibly unfair. We mix the teams to get interesting and fun games as often as possible.

 

Premades in MMO are in most cases greedy and want to farm and win as often as possible ignoring the fact that those games are incredibly boring and frustrating for the loosing side.

Just to keep the “average” player playing, we need a matchmaking system that separates the premades from the pugs and even better: Matches the gear levels of the players so not one group has 5 BM and the other 6 fresh level 50 (at least when playing the same faction).

[Orangerascal]

You say this:

I have been running in a premade for a while (we made BM pre Ilum) and we have yet to loose a single game of hutball against a non premade group. This is plain an simple boring for us and very frustrating for the groups we play. We still do it to get the 3 wins we need each day, but I actually feel bad for the groups we play. get interesting and fun games as often as possible.

 

Then you say this:

Premades in MMO are in most cases greedy and want to farm and win as often as possible ignoring the fact that those games are incredibly boring and frustrating for the loosing side.

 

Are you saying you're 'greedy and want to farm and win as often as possible' ?

 

.

.

.

.

 

Or do you just want to farm 3 wins, then wait for rated warfronts like every other competent premade?

 

Most premades want competitive games. Like you said they've farmed the valor and gear. The only thing left is the competition. They're all waiting for rated WZ's.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Orangerascal

[_Flin_]

TL;DR:

Premades are better than PUGs.

[Magnesium]

So basically your saying Premades win more often? I think we all know that and why most Premades will be looking forward to 8v8 Premades.

[Telurian]

You say this:

 

 

Then you say this:

 

 

Are you saying you're 'greedy and want to farm and win as often as possible' ?

 

.

.

.

.

 

Or do you just want to farm 3 wins, then wait for rated warfronts like every other competent premade?

 

Most premades want competitive games. Like you said they've farmed the valor and gear. The only thing left is the competition. They're all waiting for rated WZ's.

 

Some of us want to win the 3 warzones as fast as possible and this means we want to win as often as possible in as little time as possible.

 

If I want to do WZ after that (for fun) I go solo und pug because it is boring in a premade.

 

Most premades to NOT want competitive games, otherwise they would not play as a premade in this environment. Most premades that play right now just want to farm valor as fast as possible some actuality have fun in humiliaing and farming the pugs in their spawn zone. There is zero reason to do premades if you want competitive games right now.

[Kesrik]

Some of us want to win the 3 warzones as fast as possible and this means we want to win as often as possible in as little time as possible.

 

If I want to do WZ after that (for fun) I go solo und pug because it is boring in a premade.

 

Most premades to NOT want competitive games, otherwise they would not play as a premade in this environment. Most premades that play right now just want to farm valor as fast as possible some actuality have fun in humiliaing and farming the pugs in their spawn zone. There is zero reason to do premades if you want competitive games right now.

 

News flash, there is no rating system right now. Nothing about Warzones is competitive.

[Telurian]

So basically your saying Premades win more often? I think we all know that and why most Premades will be looking forward to 8v8 Premades.

 

I say that premade vs. pug is unfair and that it should be made sure that premades only play premades. I do know that everyone could form a group and then play premade vs. premade but you know as well as I do that this will not happen. There are to many players that just do a few games a week that simply do not want to be forced to group up.

 

Most people that say premade vs. pug is fine just want to keep the option to farm pugs for easy wins. It is far more challenging to have an impact on the outcome of match just by yourself then to win by default just because you are better organized and equipped then your oponent. Anyone I know that wants challenging and fun games is against pug vs. premade for a reason. The people that want pug vs. premade to stay are mostly the scrubs that know they will loose against real premades and just want to farm pugs.

[finansjapp]

Telurian,

 

You are absolutely right.

 

What I have never understood is that the game designers do not see their flawed business model. As I said in a different post. If you want to be rich cater to the poor.

 

Most mmo since ultima online, and that too now, cater to the rich.

 

That is why most games do not survive as they want to either. They fail, and the reason is simple. They make the premades and the hardcore gamers richer, and as such the poor become even poorer. Instead of creating reward system that make game balance good, they make game balance worse and worse as time goes by.

 

People pay the same amount of money to play. That is why everyone need to play the same game.

[ntyzor]

Cmon are these guys for real ?!

 

I see one guy saying that :

 

People pay the same amount of money to play. That is why everyone need to play the same game.

 

Bro let me light it up for you just in case this is your first mmo. Accept that there are some other guys out there that are also paying, and have a lot more skills than you'll ever have in PvP. Why ? Because that's everything they are doing, and they like it. They've been doing it since day 1 from 10 years ago.

Win after win they get what they deserve for the time they are wasting into this game, and the x other games they've been PvPing in.

[ntyzor]

Telurian,

 

That is why most games do not survive as they want to either. They fail, and the reason is simple. They make the premades and the hardcore gamers richer, and as such the poor become even poorer. Instead of creating reward system that make game balance good, they make game balance worse and worse as time goes by.

 

So this is your frustration, that you aren't getting everything handed on a silver plate.

[finansjapp]

Cmon are these guys for real ?!

 

I see one guy saying that :

 

People pay the same amount of money to play. That is why everyone need to play the same game.

 

Bro let me light it up for you just in case this is your first mmo. Accept that there are some other guys out there that are also paying, and have a lot more skills than you'll ever have in PvP. Why ? Because that's everything they are doing, and they like it. They've been doing it since day 1 from 10 years ago.

Win after win they get what they deserve for the time they are wasting into this game, and the x other games they've been PvPing in.

 

I said that, and I have played MMOs for 14-15 years now. From the very start of ultima online. So you were not very lucky with your assumptions

 

I shouldnt really comment on the rest of what you write, as it is very contradicting and make no sense. You say people wasting time playing this game to win? Hello! This is a game. Most people play to have fun, and everyone pay the same.

 

How many would watch a top football team play against a crappy team 15 times in a row, just to see them win 15 times? The same hard core would do, but the average joe would not.

 

Ive played all in mmo. Im not frustrated.. I just see why games fail, and I tell it to the game designers. Old Republic will soon start to loose subscribers in huge amounts. Why? So some can win every time because they have more time to waste as you say? No because the average player can not compete, even though they pay the same amount as the hard core players.

[_Flin_]

How many would watch a top football team play against a crappy team 15 times in a row, just to see them win 15 times?

 

Hmmmm... In Germany the football team with the most fans is the FC Bayern. They usually win. So the answer is: many.

[Ewgal]

Some of us want to win the 3 warzones as fast as possible and this means we want to win as often as possible in as little time as possible.

 

If I want to do WZ after that (for fun) I go solo und pug because it is boring in a premade.

 

Most premades to NOT want competitive games, otherwise they would not play as a premade in this environment. Most premades that play right now just want to farm valor as fast as possible some actuality have fun in humiliaing and farming the pugs in their spawn zone. There is zero reason to do premades if you want competitive games right now.

 

There's no real point just doing dailies as premade since the Developers are going to change the gearing system anyways with 1.2. They are just small instentives to slowly gear up the PvP crowd. True PvPers just play when they are in the mood in either 2-4 player group with 6-8 randoms or with 7 randoms. It is the PvP you play for not the wins so much at this stage of SWTOR PvP. Thats why those taking it too seriously and QQing or taking it way to seriously now are really missing the point of what they are actually playing. A test of their own players skills.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Ewgal

[Telurian]

Cmon are these guys for real ?!

 

I see one guy saying that :

 

People pay the same amount of money to play. That is why everyone need to play the same game.

 

Bro let me light it up for you just in case this is your first mmo. Accept that there are some other guys out there that are also paying, and have a lot more skills than you'll ever have in PvP. Why ? Because that's everything they are doing, and they like it. They've been doing it since day 1 from 10 years ago.

Win after win they get what they deserve for the time they are wasting into this game, and the x other games they've been PvPing in.

 

 

Of course there are players that are better then others and for me this is even more reason to evenly ditribute those players.

You can show your superior skills in premades as soon as there are ranked warzones, but right now it is simply unfair to form groups of superior players just to stomp pugs. If you do not care about fairness it is a different story but will hurt the game in the long run.

[Telurian]

Hmmmm... In Germany the football team with the most fans is the FC Bayern. They usually win. So the answer is: many.

 

Bayern is not even on place one of the bundeliga right now so there seems to be some competition. In pug vs. premade there is none.

[ntyzor]

I said that, and I have played MMOs for 14-15 years now. From the very start of ultima online. So you were not very lucky with your assumptions

 

I shouldnt really comment on the rest of what you write, as it is very contradicting and make no sense. You say people wasting time playing this game to win? Hello! This is a game. Most people play to have fun, and everyone pay the same.

 

How many would watch a top football team play against a crappy team 15 times in a row, just to see them win 15 times? The same hard core would do, but the average joe would not.

 

Ive played all in mmo. Im not frustrated.. I just see why games fail, and I tell it to the game designers. Old Republic will soon start to loose subscribers in huge amounts. Why? So some can win every time because they have more time to waste as you say? No because the average player can not compete, even though they pay the same amount as the hard core players.

 

I said that, and I have played MMOs for 14-15 years now.

What MMO were you playing 15 years ago my friend ?!?! Were you even born back then ?

 

How many would watch a top football team play against a crappy team 15 times in a row, just to see them win 15 times?.

 

You are ridiculous. I will answer you even if you don't know a thing about football obviously since you came up with this stupid question. More than 10 million for each team in that situation. Examples ? Fc Porto in the past few years, FC Bayern Munchen, FC Barcelona of the last 3 seasons , Rangers and Celtic Glasgow over the past few years before Rangers bankrupted, Inter Milano 2006-2007, FC Olimpique Lyon with Juninho winning 7 years in a row the championship.

You brought to discussion a phenomenon like Football that one such as you will never understand.

 

Bottom line. Either:

 

1) Accept your sub-mediocrity

2) Stop the crying and start investing more time in the game, play over 500 warzones like most of us are doing, and try to actually learn something from this experience, and maybe just maybe you'll be better at it.

3) Continue PvE, cause obviously PvP is a big hat for you.

Edited February 20, 2012 by ntyzor

[Telurian]

What MMO were you playing 15 years ago my friend ?!?! Were you even born back then ?

 

 

 

You are ridiculous. I will answer you even if you don't know a thing about football obviously since you came up with this stupid question. More than 10 million for each team in that situation. Examples ? Fc Porto in the past few years, FC Bayern Munchen, FC Barcelona of the last 3 seasons , Rangers and Celtic Glasgow over the past few years before Rangers bankrupted, Inter Milano 2006-2007, FC Olimpique Lyon with Juninho winning 7 years in a row the championship.

You brought to discussion a phenomenon like Football that one such as you will never understand.

 

Bottom line. Either:

 

1) Accept your sub-mediocrity

2) Stop the crying and start investing more time in the game, play over 500 warzones like most of us are doing, and try to actually learn something from this experience, and maybe just maybe you'll be better at it.

3) Continue PvE, cause obviously PvP is a big hat for you.

 

You compare top football teams to PUGs? As soon as there is a ranked system some groups will be better then other and there might even be a few groups dominating like the mentioned teams. Even in football there is a contest otherwise the same team would win the champions leauge each year.

 

What makes you think he is sub-medicore? Are you afraid of having a real competition and not being able to farm kindergarden teams any more? Does your ego really need those easy wins? If PvP was your big "hat" you would actually promote premades vs premades and not this lopsided pickup group stomping.

[finansjapp]

Hehe I said what game I played back then. It was a game who did not have any pve zones except the npc cities. You were free prey in all pve zones. Again your assumptions make you no favours.

 

This game became very huge after they started to cater to the average player back in 2000/2001. That was when they made pve grounds where people had a choise, and where everyone competed on same levels. Back then all the hard cores complained. As they do here also.

 

Other than that you really do not come up with anything useful to say, except you want to win and that you feel you deserve to have advantages over others because you spend more time in it. Or as you say... Waste in it.

 

You may say that is a valid argument, but for Bioware it should not, as they will loose many dollars and euros.

 

The football argument is valid. Those teams you mentioned play against highly skilled teams. They do not play against crappy teams.

[svartalfimposter]

News flash, there is no rating system right now. Nothing about Warzones is competitive.

 

Congratulations! You got the "I missed the point" achievement.

[Pashgan]

It's nice to see people still perceive this game and forums seriously. I'm just waiting for subscription to expire in few weeks because I'm not happy with pugsVSpremades warzones at all and stopped doing them 1 week after battlemaster title ( = long time ago).

 

Not going to pay subscription fee for this half-ready crap. Those 5 hours long losing streaks is most frustrating experience I've ever had in MMO.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Pashgan

[Dwarfy]

I am going to play Devils Advocate, mostly because it is something i am good at.

 

What do you have to say about a Pre-made of Close friends who band together, are fresh 50's and are now going aginst a pre-made of BM Geared People. It is Pre-made vs pre-made but also completly unfair. You would penalize people want to group together but are not geared.

 

Are you also going to have a match making system to compare gear? What happens when the player pool to get matched with full BM gear is not available? Does that mean that the BM geared group will be forced to play against a Centurion geared group? Again a little bit more fair but not completly.

 

The point that i am trying to make with my second statement is this, We all know there are more Imp players. So naturally there would be a larger pool of higher geared people. If you were to have a match making system based on gear then you will have two options.

 

A) have the BM team wait until another similar team is available to play

 

or

 

B) match them up against another weaker team so they get to play and not stand around waiting.

 

 

I bet you if you fell into category A you would be pissed as the team waiting on the long queue and also and the lesser geared team in category B.

 

Either way your back to square one.

[Telurian]

I am going to play Devils Advocate, mostly because it is something i am good at.

 

What do you have to say about a Pre-made of Close friends who band together, are fresh 50's and are now going aginst a pre-made of BM Geared People. It is Pre-made vs pre-made but also completly unfair. You would penalize people want to group together but are not geared.

 

Are you also going to have a match making system to compare gear? What happens when the player pool to get matched with full BM gear is not available? Does that mean that the BM geared group will be forced to play against a Centurion geared group? Again a little bit more fair but not completly.

 

The point that i am trying to make with my second statement is this, We all know there are more Imp players. So naturally there would be a larger pool of higher geared people. If you were to have a match making system based on gear then you will have two options.

 

A) have the BM team wait until another similar team is available to play

 

or

 

B) match them up against another weaker team so they get to play and not stand around waiting.

 

 

I bet you if you fell into category A you would be pissed as the team waiting on the long queue and also and the lesser geared team in category B.

 

Either way your back to square one.

 

In a cases like this it might actually be better to solo for the first 2 weeks till you have the gear to compete.

 

A matchmiaking system that also takes the gear into account would be nice but until we have merged servers for PvP this kind of thing will not work because of the queue times.

 

After all, it is something different if you group up and know you will fight other groups.

At least you have the the option to solo queue and not meet premades

Right now you solo queue and do not have the option to avoid premades.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Telurian

[ntyzor]

Hehe I said what game I played back then. It was a game who did not have any pve zones except the npc cities. You were free prey in all pve zones. Again your assumptions make you no favours.

 

This game became very huge after they started to cater to the average player back in 2000/2001. That was when they made pve grounds where people had a choise, and where everyone competed on same levels. Back then all the hard cores complained. As they do here also.

 

Other than that you really do not come up with anything useful to say, except you want to win and that you feel you deserve to have advantages over others because you spend more time in it. Or as you say... Waste in it.

 

You may say that is a valid argument, but for Bioware it should not, as they will loose many dollars and euros.

 

The football argument is valid. Those teams you mentioned play against highly skilled teams. They do not play against crappy teams.

 

Same goes for real life my friend.

The more time you put into your work, the more benefits you get from it. Do you expect getting a promotion without putting hard work in it ? As a student, do you expect getting A's all over without the effort that the so called "nerds" and "lab rats" are putting into it ?!? Is there any issue here ?! You aren't making any point.

 

And yeah I don't play 24/7. I play 3 hours a day week-days, and 4-5 hours a day weekends. I got more important things than games to attend to in the rest of the time. But when I play, i don't beg for everything to be handed to me on a silver plate.

Edited February 20, 2012 by ntyzor

[ntyzor]

And I'm not even a hardcore PvP player, nor from the top PvP guilds from my server. I'm just a rank 57 over-average player out there making a name for himself in warzones on the server I play in.

Rank 65+ players are laughing their backdoors when reading the ******** you and all the other PvE players are writing on these PvP forums.

[Telurian]

Same goes for real life my friend.

The more time you put into your work, the more benefits you get from it. Do you expect getting a promotion without putting hard work in it ? As a student, do you expect getting A's all over without the effort that the so called "nerds" and "lab rats" are putting into it ?!? Is there any issue here ?! You aren't making any point.

 

And yeah I don't play 24/7. I play 3 hours a day week-days, and 4-5 hours a day weekends. I got more important things than games to attend to in the rest of the time. But when I play, i don't beg for everything to be handed to me on a silver plate.

 

What has playing games with fair odds to do with getting everything on a silver tablet? You still need hundereds of games to make BM and then a few more weeks to get the full set. Noone is talking about handing out anything to the players just about making the game as enjoyable as possible to keep the people playing.