How to be a 1st rate endgame (group) PVE tank...

[vonklaun]

What is it, specifically, that makes for a really well-played, group-valuable tank for HM flashpoints/operations? The kind of tank that does everything (or at least most things) right?

 

My shieldtech spec'd tank does well, but I usually die at least once per mission, and sometimes feel I get the balance between drawing aggro and drawing too much aggro wrong. I haven't gotten any teammates telling me I'm doing anything wrong or complaining, but I feel I could be doing a better job. (Such as not dying right before the group takes a boss/sub-boss out).

 

(ps: I'm full champion geared (no decent pve gear yet), and spec'd almost full ST)

 

Share your tips guys, help me be a better player and teammate.

[Tenacity]

A few things to consider here...

 

 

If you're dying or having issues surviving incoming damage, there are three possible reasons:

 

-Gear: could be that you're undergeared or dont have the appropriate stats for the content you're attempting. Depending on which hardmodes you're running, or which level of raid content, the gear requirements will obviously change, but in general you should be focusing on getting 50% shield rate, 50% absorption, 50% damage reduction, and a minimum of 15% defense chance.

 

-Healing: most of the times I have issues with dying, it ends up being an issue with the healer, rather than with my own gear or performance. Some of it is based on class, but much on healer awareness and rotations. Unfortunately there isnt much you can do to change this other than talking to your healer about it. In the past two days I've run hardmode black talon (helping gear up other guild members) with two healers, both of whom had roughly equivalent gear - one of them never let me die and never let me get below 50% health, but with the other I was dying left and right and constantly below 20% health otherwise. This is purely an issue with healer skill.

 

-Control: I have never used crowd control in this game, up until doing karagga's palace, as I prefer to AoE tank whenever possible. Still, if you're not well enough geared to deal with incoming damage, having your DPS/healer CC targets and pulling the rest away to avoid breaking that CC may help you out quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

You should also take care in managing your defensive cooldowns. In general, we have five defensive cooldowns we can use:

 

1. Med Kit: Regardless of whether you're a biochem with rakata medkits or not, you should always have some with you. Sometimes your healer will find himself having to keep careless DPS alive and you'll take some spike damage, always be ready to hit a medkit if you drop below 20% health.

 

2. Defensive Relics: I use a matrix cube with tanking stats, and a relic that gives defense rating (prior to obtaining 50% shield chance, I used a shield rating/absorption rating relic instead). Your defensive relic should always be the first defensive cooldown you use up when the damage coming at you is heavier than you can handle, as it provides the least benefit at the lowest cost. Try to use these at 50-60% health if you know you're going to be taking a lot of damage.

 

3. Oil Slick: I use oil slick pretty often, and with only a 1 minute cooldown (and 20 second duration, with columi set bonus) you can use it almost every pull and several times per fight. The downside to oil slick is that it reduces your heat dissipation, because if attacks arent hitting you, your shield wont proc. Think of oil slick as an on-demand 20 seconds worth of 20% extra defense chance.

 

4. Kolto Overload: 15% health restoration over 6 seconds, at 20k health, is 3,000 health worth. Think of it like getting one or two good heals at no cost, or an extra medkit on demand. This can be paired up with medkits as well to give you 6-7k health pretty quickly, counteracting unexpected spike damage.

 

5. Energy Shield: Because energy shield works against all types of damage, does not prevent shielding of attacks to reduce heat levels, and provides a massive increase to damage reduction, I typically save it for my last resort cooldown - something to use if I get below 20% health or my healer is having a particularly hard time keeping me up.

 

You always want to rotate your defensive cooldowns so that you always have one of them available in an emergency. Try not to pop them all at once, especially during longer boss fights, your overall survivability will improve if you rotate through them one at a time.

[vonklaun]

Woah- great reply.

 

I am digesting it now, and taking it all into consideration.

 

(My shield/adsorption rates are both just under 40%. HP is just over 18000. Can't remember my defense rate offhand, but it's nothing great. I'm all champion gear'd except for my centurion earpiece (champion supercommando set, btw).

 

Should I be focusing on collecting Columni/Rakata gear for the best PVE stats?)

[Wisz_Rethon]

may i add that sometimes if the healer isn't healing you it's because he's healing others including himself?

 

I agree that aggro generation and maintenance in this game is nto the most easily checked.

But please take care of getting aggro on all mobs especially those that are on top of the healer please.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Wisz_Rethon

[Fredcat]

Just gotta add, you can't draw too much aggro if your the main tank. Your job is to draw ALL aggro so the healer only has to heal one guy. The off tanks job is to grab any mobs you lose aggro on that attack the healer, until you re-establish aggro on it.

 

Tenacity gives good suggestions.

[ZNICK]

Also be wise about who (if anyone) you guard.

 

If your healer (or main tank if you are the off tank) is dying regardless of the reason, put your guard on them. However, if you're the MT and YOU are dying, don't guard anyone.

 

Z

[JohnnyAmerica]

A few things to consider here...

 

 

If you're dying or having issues surviving incoming damage, there are three possible reasons:

 

-Gear: could be that you're undergeared or dont have the appropriate stats for the content you're attempting. Depending on which hardmodes you're running, or which level of raid content, the gear requirements will obviously change, but in general you should be focusing on getting 50% shield rate, 50% absorption, 50% damage reduction, and a minimum of 15% defense chance.

 

-Healing: most of the times I have issues with dying, it ends up being an issue with the healer, rather than with my own gear or performance. Some of it is based on class, but much on healer awareness and rotations. Unfortunately there isnt much you can do to change this other than talking to your healer about it. In the past two days I've run hardmode black talon (helping gear up other guild members) with two healers, both of whom had roughly equivalent gear - one of them never let me die and never let me get below 50% health, but with the other I was dying left and right and constantly below 20% health otherwise. This is purely an issue with healer skill.

 

-Control: I have never used crowd control in this game, up until doing karagga's palace, as I prefer to AoE tank whenever possible. Still, if you're not well enough geared to deal with incoming damage, having your DPS/healer CC targets and pulling the rest away to avoid breaking that CC may help you out quite a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

You should also take care in managing your defensive cooldowns. In general, we have five defensive cooldowns we can use:

 

1. Med Kit: Regardless of whether you're a biochem with rakata medkits or not, you should always have some with you. Sometimes your healer will find himself having to keep careless DPS alive and you'll take some spike damage, always be ready to hit a medkit if you drop below 20% health.

 

2. Defensive Relics: I use a matrix cube with tanking stats, and a relic that gives defense rating (prior to obtaining 50% shield chance, I used a shield rating/absorption rating relic instead). Your defensive relic should always be the first defensive cooldown you use up when the damage coming at you is heavier than you can handle, as it provides the least benefit at the lowest cost. Try to use these at 50-60% health if you know you're going to be taking a lot of damage.

 

3. Oil Slick: I use oil slick pretty often, and with only a 1 minute cooldown (and 20 second duration, with columi set bonus) you can use it almost every pull and several times per fight. The downside to oil slick is that it reduces your heat dissipation, because if attacks arent hitting you, your shield wont proc. Think of oil slick as an on-demand 20 seconds worth of 20% extra defense chance.

 

4. Kolto Overload: 15% health restoration over 6 seconds, at 20k health, is 3,000 health worth. Think of it like getting one or two good heals at no cost, or an extra medkit on demand. This can be paired up with medkits as well to give you 6-7k health pretty quickly, counteracting unexpected spike damage.

 

5. Energy Shield: Because energy shield works against all types of damage, does not prevent shielding of attacks to reduce heat levels, and provides a massive increase to damage reduction, I typically save it for my last resort cooldown - something to use if I get below 20% health or my healer is having a particularly hard time keeping me up.

 

You always want to rotate your defensive cooldowns so that you always have one of them available in an emergency. Try not to pop them all at once, especially during longer boss fights, your overall survivability will improve if you rotate through them one at a time.

 

Tagged for later

[FoE_TooLate]

What is your primary flow of attacks?

[Stonewall_Jack]

50% shield rate, 50% absorption

 

What gear do you use?

 

I got about 75% of all datacrons (including +10) and am fully geared tier 2 supercommando and full in the shield tech tree. With a stim I am at 23k+ HP, but the shield chances and defense are not even close to what you mention here and I would say the supercommando columni, with rakata bracers and a rakate belt should be pretty much top notch.

[Tenacity]

I'm at 4/5 columi supercommando (plus belt and bracers), missing the legs still. Currently at 50.5% shield chance, 52% damage reduction, and just under 40% absorption, with 15.5% defense chance. At around 20.6k health right now, but as most veteran tanks (in any MMO) will tell you - there's an effective health limit where getting extra hitpoints doesnt really benefit you any further.

 

I swapped out a lot of the accuracy enhancements in the columi gear for the daily reward shield rating + absorption rating enhancements. You need little to no accuracy as a powertech tank, as the majority of our attacks are tech-based and cannot be dodged/deflected, along with having a 100% base accuracy rate.

[Stonewall_Jack]

Interesting swapping out the modules that is worth looking into, gives me something to do again.

 

I agree you want high defense and it will benefit the healing done to you. How does it hold when you solo?

 

Do you notice the damage reduction or will the extra shield procs give you more dps (i.e. instead of normal pistol shots you would the use the flame burst attack more)?

 

The big meat HP does work well in PvP , thanks for taking time to answer some questions. I am also no expert at the dailies, but how much time or how many runs would it require you, to replace the mods?

 

Is it doable with just the Belsavis dailies? I've been delaying the BH ending as it has been broken and I sort of want expect a functional ending.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Stonewall_Jack

[curtisloew]

Also be wise about who (if anyone) you guard.

 

If your healer (or main tank if you are the off tank) is dying regardless of the reason, put your guard on them. However, if you're the MT and YOU are dying, don't guard anyone.

 

Z

 

You should always have guard up on someone. It provides 5% damage reduction and 25% threat reduction.

 

The 50% damage transferred to you only occurs against player characters (pvp)

 

Edit: Oh, and never guard the main tank.

 

Pretty much forget what this guy suggested.

Edited February 24, 2012 by curtisloew

[Tenacity]

Interesting swapping out the modules that is worth looking into, gives me something to do again.

 

I agree you want high defense and it will benefit the healing done to you. How does it hold when you solo?

 

Do you notice the damage reduction or will the extra shield procs give you more dps (i.e. instead of normal pistol shots you would the use the flame burst attack more)?

 

The big meat HP does work well in PvP , thanks for taking time to answer some questions. I am also no expert at the dailies, but how much time or how many runs would it require you, to replace the mods?

 

Is it doable with just the Belsavis dailies? I've been delaying the BH ending as it has been broken and I sort of want expect a functional ending.

 

Works fine for soloing, I usually solo with Gault (and have him equipped with 2/5 columi and 1/5 tionese agent gear) and dont tend to have issues taking on much at all. I swap his gear set to mako for champion-type mobs and can take them out without any real risk of dying.

 

Just last night I managed to solo the 2 man heroic 2+ daily mission on belsavis, died once doing it but still managed.

[Prolyfic]

I take a slightly different approach to tanking PT. My philosophy is that PT is a Proactive tank.

 

Using this strategy I don't have any "emergency situations" under normal use. (normal basically being any fight where someone doesnt pull adds in lol)

 

This is because I alternate my cooldowns from the beginning of the fight to the end. Out of every 2 mins, I'm only uncovered for 1/3rd or less of the time, otherwise with my CDs recycling I'm taking such low dmg the healer doesnt have to really start working until a min and a half in.

 

I start off with a relic, then when I've taken 10-15% I'll pop kolto. when the relic runs out I'll use my shield which overlaps with kolto and tends to take me back up to 100% or close to it. Then I'll pop oil slick and when I can my second relic. I'll usually run out of defensive CDs at around 85% health that's when the healer starts to see my health drop more than a % or two at a time. (or in the case of pvp I usually finish off my opponent if dps at around 85% hp left using this method)

 

I feel like the traditional old'school approach that "I only use defensive abilities as a tank when I'm in trouble" is flawed. Should offense only boost their DPS situtionally? Or would you as a tank want them to boost it repeatedly every fight? I feel it's wasteful being a proactive tank and having NO defensive ability on CD. I will always have some layer of defensive active or recharging, no matter if its trash or a boss. I just feel that's my job as a tank to take as little dmg as possible.

 

ALL THAT SAID, if you're dying right before the boss dies in HM it's your DPS' fault. It's the enrage killing you, NOT the dmg over time, lack of healing, lack of gear, or any other such thing. If you survive the whole fight and die right at the end, that means your DPS is not fast enough and you ran out of time but luckily you were close enough to finish the boss w/o wiping.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Trojan]

I feel like the traditional old'school approach that "I only use defensive abilities as a tank when I'm in trouble" is flawed.

 

Agree and Disagree

 

Agree because, as a raid lead and tank, I notice other tanks rarely, if ever, use them, and that is sad. An Oh-chit ability not used is an ability wasted, you could have reduced the damage you took considerably, especially if others die in the attempt at a boss. Those heals you took, could of saved their lives (i know, this is an "if" statement) In my opinion as a tank of 5years in various games, knowing the bosses moves and abilities and when you can negate some of them through better management of CD's is what a tank SHOULD be doing.

 

Disagree because, depending on the boss and the situations that arise, you MIGHT need your defensive cooldowns at 84% or below of the bosses health. The best use of CDs (again my opinion) isnt to just blow them when they pop up, but to utilize them and maximize their potential on bosses.

 

For example: during the first boss in EV HM. I use my CDs, throughout the fight, usually right before a slam, a swipe and even each missile salvo. So again, I agree with you in some regard, "oh chit buttons SHOULD be utilized more, but not used just to use them up"

[Tenacity]

I use oil slick every chance I get, it's like having an extra 20% defense with 33% uptime.

 

I tend to save energy shield for harder hitting enemies, or if I think we wont beat an enrage timer.

 

Kolto overload I save as well, as it's basically like having a second medkit. I only use it when I get below a certain level of health, or there's other issues going on in the encounter that force my healer to deal with something other than healing me (like having to heal dps or having to run around/reposition).

 

So it's a mixed bag, oil slick is definitely a proactive ability though.

[Prolyfic]

knowing the bosses moves and abilities and when you can negate some of them through better management of CD's is what a tank SHOULD be doing.

 

obviously this is ideal. played perfectly, a PT would use every cd right before a big ability or series of abilities and once a good tank has learned an encounter that's exactly what they tend to do.

 

and no, if I need to save CDs I wont use them at say 20% boss hp left if they are up, just in case I expect the boss to enrage at 5-10%. thats common sense

 

The best use of CDs (again my opinion) isnt to just blow them when they pop up, but to utilize them and maximize their potential on bosses.

 

Well, yes of course. a Proactive tank means he uses his CDs before he needs them, not that he uses all CDs up front. I think you are confusing proactive/reactive with a tank with cd management and encounter experience vs a tank w/o cd management or encounter experience.

 

maybe my thread was confusing but the point I make is that if I am taking dmg and I have no reason to expect a spike, then I will layer my defense smoothly over the fight instead of waiting til I need it. I have been following this philosophy with resist (proactive) tanks throughout MMOs and it generally remains the same..

 

*Defense tanks have greater burst CDs aka emergency or recovery moves (shields that stop incoming damage near completely for a short time, burst heals, etc)

 

*Resist tanks have greater sustained CDs aka preventative moves (shields that reduce incoming dmg by a lesser amount but for a longer period of time, HoTs instead of instant heals etc)

 

the reason is simple because defense tanks take less frequent hits for greater dmg and resist tanks take many more frequent hits for far less dmg. the mean mitigation comes out the same, but the incoming dps variance on defense-based tanks is higher, thus they have greater reliance on burst/emergency heals to survive than more predictable resist tanks. It's not a new concept to swtor by any stretch and however you look at it, PT is a resist tank.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Prolyfic

[vonklaun]

There's way more helpful stuff in this thread than I had hoped for, and now I'm thinking more about things like anticipating enrage and my overall defensive rotation.

 

I wish I hadn't just skipped doing flashpoints and group PVE while levelling, as in- I played through black talon once and that was literally it until I recently started the endgame stuff with a guild. So some of the time I'm tanking I've never even played through the level before. (I let my group know this, of course )

[Tenacity]

I wish I hadn't just skipped doing flashpoints and group PVE while levelling, as in- I played through black talon once and that was literally it until I recently started the endgame stuff with a guild. So some of the time I'm tanking I've never even played through the level before. (I let my group know this, of course )

 

I had the same situation. I was the second player on my server to hit level 50, and right on the heels of my guild's sniper that hit 50 first.

 

While levelling up, I was generally the only person on whichever planet I was doing missions on at the time, there were never any players within my level range that I could group with. I never did flashpoints levelling up, and I only did heroic missions that I could solo.

 

Still, it hasnt caused too many issues, once you do a flashpoint on hardmode once or twice you figure out the tricks to each boss.

[MasamuneX]

Im being asked to tank some hard mode operations later today, but stat wise I dont think I'm ready... 51% DR, 19k health without stim, 40/40 shield/absorb 12% defense. We have really good healers and dps, we've downed the hard modes, but it's not always smooth as we only just started them a few weeks prior. Our main tank is off for the next two weeks and when he comes back it'll be as a dps.

 

Should I hold off or try it out?

Edited February 25, 2012 by MasamuneX

[Tenacity]

Im being asked to tank some hard mode operations later today, but stat wise I dont think I'm ready... 51% DR, 19k health without stim, 40/40 shield/absorb 12% defense. We have really good healers and dps, we've downed the hard modes, but it's not always smooth as we only just started them a few weeks prior. Our main tank is off for the next two weeks and when he comes back it'll be as a dps.

 

Should I hold off or try it out?

 

You'll be fine with those stats.

 

Really, damage dealt to tanks in this game isnt all that difficult to deal with even when undergeared. Going from normal ops to hardmode ops is more a matter of group coordination and your DPS players being properly geared so they can beat enrage timers.

[QiBao]

Good posts, but I strongly recommend using Energy Shield when you know large attacks are coming in. Mitigation CDs should be used proactively when you know big damage is coming to get the maximum benefit.

[MasamuneX]

Thanks for the info. Successfully tanks all bosses tonight and got 4 upgrades. Was overall a good time and never really fealt in danger besides one enrage timer.

[tobarstep]

I take a slightly different approach to tanking PT. My philosophy is that PT is a Proactive tank.

 

Using this strategy I don't have any "emergency situations" under normal use. (normal basically being any fight where someone doesnt pull adds in lol)

 

This is because I alternate my cooldowns from the beginning of the fight to the end. Out of every 2 mins, I'm only uncovered for 1/3rd or less of the time, otherwise with my CDs recycling I'm taking such low dmg the healer doesnt have to really start working until a min and a half in.

 

I start off with a relic, then when I've taken 10-15% I'll pop kolto. when the relic runs out I'll use my shield which overlaps with kolto and tends to take me back up to 100% or close to it. Then I'll pop oil slick and when I can my second relic. I'll usually run out of defensive CDs at around 85% health that's when the healer starts to see my health drop more than a % or two at a time. (or in the case of pvp I usually finish off my opponent if dps at around 85% hp left using this method)

 

I feel like the traditional old'school approach that "I only use defensive abilities as a tank when I'm in trouble" is flawed. Should offense only boost their DPS situtionally? Or would you as a tank want them to boost it repeatedly every fight? I feel it's wasteful being a proactive tank and having NO defensive ability on CD. I will always have some layer of defensive active or recharging, no matter if its trash or a boss. I just feel that's my job as a tank to take as little dmg as possible.

 

ALL THAT SAID, if you're dying right before the boss dies in HM it's your DPS' fault. It's the enrage killing you, NOT the dmg over time, lack of healing, lack of gear, or any other such thing. If you survive the whole fight and die right at the end, that means your DPS is not fast enough and you ran out of time but luckily you were close enough to finish the boss w/o wiping.

 

I pretty much agree with this. Though I would argue that the use of your cooldowns only when you're in trouble is not at all the old-school approach. The old-school approach that I learned to tank with (Molten Core, anyone? bleh...) was to use cooldowns early and often. Yes, you save your "oh *hit" buttons for the emergencies, but we really don't have any of those in SWTOR. Things like temporary damage immunity or instant 50% heals on 30 minute cooldowns. Medpacks might be an "oh *hit" measure in my estimation, but not your 2 minute cooldowns. You should be alternating those and using them whenever they're available.

[QiBao]

^ certainly Oil Slick and Kolto Overload should be on CD pretty much all the time.