Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

[NoxiousAlby]

I've enver liked the trinity system, first designer to come up with a good mmo that allows character progression without it wins my money.

[Terko_Koslah]

I've never liked the thoughts of game mechanics or min max thinking. It just kills a good game for me. I'm all about he story, rp, looks, combat game-play.

 

I'm starting to see the awesomeness of the lack of auto-attack. I think it's brilliant. It brings depth to any fight even fighting trash mobs.

 

I don't like the trinity thinking and if any game company can find a way around it I think that would be awesome. LF1M healer or tank just sucks if you can take anybody with you.

[xioix]

$200 million dollars and 6 years in development.

 

I really hope GW2 will not use this archaic system...

[xioix]

I've enver liked the trinity system, first designer to come up with a good mmo that allows character progression without it wins my money.

 

Guild Wars 2

[Terko_Koslah]

I can understand the fact that there are classes that can heal and others that can't like in classic fantasy a warrior can't heal and a cleric is a healer, but the fact that the game requires someone to spec his/hers character as a healer or tank in order to be able to clear content sucks. It feels very narrow minded in my book.

[Lethality]

The trinity is actually a great way to represent the various aspects of combat, and provide different play styles to each role.

 

TOR is built with this in mind, and it would take a re-design (otherwise known as the NGE to change.

[Lethality]

Guild Wars 2

 

GW2 will still have trinity "roles" and I have a feeling the player base will demand they be used that way.

[DigitalPrime]

I love the trinity system, Always will. Having to depend on other classes to get jobs done is what makes MMOs great imo. GW2, watched many videos on the game and it just looks like another 3rd person hack and slash. Everyone can do every job which intails doesnt really make it an MMO in my opinion. its more like a 3rd person hack and slash with RPG elements thrown in.

 

If this is the way MMOs are going, I guess its time for me to move on from the genre. But while MMOs use the trinity system, ill still play them.

[Drewser]

Is there any non-trinity MMO's that are out now? I have no idea whether I would like or hate it, because I have never played a mainstream MMO without it.

 

CoH did a decent of job of making 99% of the content beatable without the "trinity". They did it by creating classes that buff/debuff and CC.

[Galbatorrix]

I like the trinity system.

 

 

 

^^^^ This.

[Galbatorrix]

Also, I'd like to add that the trinity system also promotes re-playthroughs. If you were a Sentinel the first time, playing through as a Guardian tank will feel completely different due to the role you're playing. If they take away the trinity and give everyone tanking/healing/dps abilities, then every single class would feel identical and one play through would net you everything the game has to offer, gameplay wise.

 

 

As is, playing through as a Sentienl, then Vanguard, then Sage all feel different because each offer different play styles. I'd like to keep it that way.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Skuldar]

When a game is centered around combat, it's hard to implement a good alternative to the classic trinity. When you and the mobs both have HP that needs to be either preserved or depleted, you'll naturally see roles develop that resemble the trinity. To get much beyond that, you'd have to move away from being combat-centric and make the quests more like puzzles or diplomatic encounters. Even adding diplomacy as an optional route in quests would take a step in that direction, and SWTOR has a bit of that. Now imagine if every quest could be completed without combat, whether via acrobatics or stealth or faction grind or canny conversation.

[TheSwamper]

When a game is centered around combat, it's hard to implement a good alternative to the classic trinity. When you and the mobs both have HP that needs to be either preserved or depleted, you'll naturally see roles develop that resemble the trinity. To get much beyond that, you'd have to move away from being combat-centric and make the quests more like puzzles or diplomatic encounters.

 

I disagree with this part. I've run a tabletop pen and paper session of D&D for decades now and I've created many, many combat encounters where the trilogy is not helpful. Since this is one of the core games that many RPGs sprang from, it's not that hard to create similar scenarios for it.

 

Regarding the title of this thread: ALL MMOs should start de-emphasizing the trinity.

[ferroz]

You can design a boss enounter without needing a tank. This is not complicated. You can desgin NPC damage to be avoidable thus removing the need for a healer. This is not complicated. You can retool the class tool box with different skills and reblanace them.

So, change all npc mechanics, change all pc class skills, change all companion skills...

 

how is that not a "massive overhaul" ?

[swjoeyss]

I remember specifically pre-release before any really knew if this game was going to use the trinity, there was a rumor going around that this game was going stray away from that ideology. I also remember there were so many posts of people complaining that they wanted the game to keep the basic mmo formula.

 

First off, what you are asking is almost impossible. Secondly, you can never please everyone.

[TheSwamper]

So, change all npc mechanics, change all pc class skills, change all companion skills...

 

how is that not a "massive overhaul" ?

 

Encounters can be made where the trinity is not required without changing a single class ability.

[Myria_K]

Is there any non-trinity MMO's that are out now? I have no idea whether I would like or hate it, because I have never played a mainstream MMO without it.

 

Two I've played: Champions Online and Fallen Earth.

 

Champions does have the trinity, after a fashion, but since everyone can take any skill (I would say like GW2, but everyone knows Anet invented the idea and no one has ever tried it before /rollseyes) what you ended up with was everyone having some tanking, healing, and nuking skills.

 

As for Fallen Earth, there's no real classes and over the life of the game what little ability there was to act as a medic has been nerfed away. Again, everyone takes some tanking skills, some healing skills, and a whole lot of DPS skills.

 

The two things both games have in common is that grouping tends to be relatively rare, and when people do group it's a mindless zerg. And I mean that literally. Throw every spell/round you have downrange and if you die (and you likely will, early and often) just run back from the rez point/cloner and re-engage.

 

Removing the trinity without a replacement game system that serves the same functions -- and to date no one has come up with one -- wouldn't just be foolish, it'd be downright suicidal.

[BMBender]

Helluva thread OP, hope it doesn't get craphammered by moles & trolls. Oops ... too late.

 

I'm not sure combat, exploration and progression can be avoided in an MMO. Remove combat and encounters become docile. (Think Second Life.) Remove exploration and the game evolves one dimensionally. (Think Guild Wars.) Remove progression and there's nothing but status quo to lean on. (Can't think of one.) Anything outside that triangle would require too much storage, too much back-end bandwidth and WAY too much fuzzy logic to pull off.

 

And I think fuzzy logic is where the next generation MMO would have to come from. A ubiquitous world builder engine that plays creator in a purely pervasive environment where every character's actions and choices affect every other character's actions and choices throughout the entire game. End game starts the moment a player first logs in. Plots would build themselves, stories and lore would write themselves, and player characters would in essence be a part of every other player character's questlines - all on the fly. Won't ever happen.

 

However I could see a limited variation of that someday in an instanced multiplayer environment with maybe 4 players where decision and reaction skills alone - and not character level or equipment - would be the balance. But not on an MMO scale with millions of players residing in a one room galaxy.

 

Until that or some haptic-based alpha wave triggered virtual brain world that paints from and directly reacts to a player's thoughts comes along, the trinity (either in part or in whole) is probably it for MMOs.

 

I don't think SWTOR should (or even can) de-emphasize the Trinity. Just continue improving what they have until it can expand beyond instanced spacedocks into the Star Wars universe we saw in the movies.

 

huh? wth are you talking about?

[Galbatorrix]

Encounters can be made where the trinity is not required without changing a single class ability.

 

 

How? More than likely, at some point, either the Tanks going to have to taunt or the healer is going to have to heal regardless. And if not, the encounter basically becomes a DPS zerg fest where you're trying to kill the boss before it kills you. The only way around this would be if everyone had taunts/defensive skills and healing abilities. And if they did, why would you ever reroll an alt? You'd see all the game has to offer, gameplay wise in one play through. The trinity adds variety and encourages multiply play throughs. There's no way Bioware would take away something that both works as a gameplay variety function and also a time sink. They'd honestly be crazy to. I agree that they could make some encounters rely less on it (which is already the case anyway... only tank and spank encounters rely solely on the trinity system), but the trinity system is the best method available currently.

[Megaphys]

ok, while i neither hate nor love the trinity it has real problems, and it has been done many times, im up for something more interesting. Still i know this whole entire game and class structure has been developed with the trinity in mind, you cannot remove it.

 

I think the people who think you must have a trinity, or that without a trinity it becomes a burn down for everything arent really understanding things.

 

Not having a the trinity simply means you dont have the same static i can only do 1 thing with each class type thing. A battle can still break down into taking damage dealing damage and support, but a class does not have to be only one thing. that would be the breaking of the trinity.

 

it doesnt mean there will be no strategy, but rather decentralizing one role in battle toward the whole group. bouncing hate, managing group buffs, changing focuses during combat, sounds very strategic, and interesting.

[Farho]

There actually is a simple way to increase the options at least without a major overhaul.

 

Let's check the classic trinity, there actually are 5 roles in the classic trinity that can be seen in 3 groups:

 

1-Tank: deals mediocre damage, aggroes the boss and mitigates damage. needs focused healing.

2-Tank healing: deals little or no damage and heals the tank.

3-Group healing: deals little or no damage and heals the group.

4-Ranged dps: deals high damage and gets little or no damage depending on the encounter.

5-Melee dps: deals high damage and gets little or mediocre damage depending on the encounter.

 

SWTOR follows the same rule but we have actually seen many alternative roles even in WoW.

 

-Kiter: replaces the tank, aggroes the boss/adds and takes little or no damage. deals little damage. Doesn't require a dedicated healer.

-Buffer: deals little or mediocre damage and buffs the group so they can do whatever they do better and be able to kill the boss.

-Debuffer: deals mediocre to high damage and weakens the boss so the group can kill the boss.

-CCer: disables multiple adds and let them be killed 1 by 1.

 

With such options that can replace one another one can provide a little more breathing room to the groups and add some replay value to the game.

 

But this requires a class and attribute overhaul, here's how:

The tanks and healers have to use the classes main stats for mitigating/healing (healers do this atm). E.g. Jedi Guardian tanks should use STR instead of defense/absorb ratings to mitigate damage, Trooper vanguards should use Aim etc. and without resetting talents and/or changing gear they should be able to change their role with 1 click. Same with other roles such as debuffing and kiting and every class should be able to apply 2-3 roles with no gear/talent reset, so that any group of classes can hope to find the right setup in any given encounter, except where all players are of the same class. At least in FPs, and OPs can be designed to ask for 5 or more roles for the easiest setup.

 

I believe the new monk class of WoW-MoP will be an attempt for such an alternative role and not just a plain tank or plain healer. Why shouldn't SWTOR choose the same path?

[BMBender]

ok, while i neither hate nor love the trinity it has real problems, and it has been done many times, im up for something more interesting. Still i know this whole entire game and class structure has been developed with the trinity in mind, you cannot remove it.

 

I think the people who think you must have a trinity, or that without a trinity it becomes a burn down for everything arent really understanding things.

 

Not having a the trinity simply means you dont have the same static i can only do 1 thing with each class type thing. A battle can still break down into taking damage dealing damage and support, but a class does not have to be only one thing. that would be the breaking of the trinity.

 

it doesnt mean there will be no strategy, but rather decentralizing one role in battle toward the whole group. bouncing hate, managing group buffs, changing focuses during combat, sounds very strategic, and interesting.

 

WoW's been around too long; whole generations have seen nothing but the trinity. They have no frame of reference by not having played games that didn't use it. Your not gonna convince em on a forum board, they simply can't conceptualize something as basic as that. They can't help it. they were never exposed to it and the rest of the industry is STILL trying to cash in on the EQ/WoW train.

 

The only parts of the industry that still play around with non-trinity are smaller indipendent developers. And they don't have the size, marketing inertia, and capital investment to make it going concern.

[Megaphys]

How? More than likely, at some point, either the Tanks going to have to taunt or the healer is going to have to heal regardless. And if not, the encounter basically becomes a DPS zerg fest where you're trying to kill the boss before it kills you. The only way around this would be if everyone had taunts/defensive skills and healing abilities. And if they did, why would you ever reroll an alt? You'd see all the game has to offer, gameplay wise in one play through. The trinity adds variety and encourages multiply play throughs. There's no way Bioware would take away something that both works as a gameplay variety function and also a time sink. They'd honestly be crazy to. I agree that they could make some encounters rely less on it (which is already the case anyway... only tank and spank encounters rely solely on the trinity system), but the trinity system is the best method available currently.

 

youd roll and alt for different playstyles and ways of dealing with the probelms.

 

For example, what a healer is doing is really a form of mitigating dmg over time.

 

One class may have a big heal

another class may have the ability to block a hit

another class may have the ability to stun the enemy

 

all are doing a form of reducind dmg.

 

you play a new class to do things a different way.

 

a group of thieves may constantly use tricks, going in and out of range, disapearing, dodging attacks and confusing and stunning the monster

 

a group of warriors bounce hate, absorb and reduce dmg, applying buffs to each other etc

 

a group of mages may heal each other and dps while using long range tactics.

 

a mixed group may combine these various abilities to achieve these same effects.

 

 

and with this every encounter will be different, every style will be different. One playthrough you may end up having to distract and debilitate the monster on your theif, another you may end up straight dpsing it most the time, another you may end up using your abilities to avoid damage while taking most of the bosses fire power.

 

now im not saying they could do it here, but it is possible, and well executed it can be extremely fun.

[Farho]

youd roll and alt for different playstyles and ways of dealing with the probelms.

 

For example, what a healer is doing is really a form of mitigating dmg over time.

 

One class may have a big heal

another class may have the ability to block a hit

another class may have the ability to stun the enemy

 

............

 

yeah was saying more or less the same thing a few posts above. guess I'm not alone.

[Galbatorrix]

There actually is a simple way to increase the options at least without a major overhaul.

 

Let's check the classic trinity, there actually are 5 roles in the classic trinity that can be seen in 3 groups:

 

1-Tank: deals mediocre damage, aggroes the boss and mitigates damage. needs focused healing.

2-Tank healing: deals little or no damage and heals the tank.

3-Group healing: deals little or no damage and heals the group.

4-Ranged dps: deals high damage and gets little or no damage depending on the encounter.

5-Melee dps: deals high damage and gets little or mediocre damage depending on the encounter.

 

SWTOR follows the same rule but we have actually seen many alternative roles even in WoW.

 

-Kiter: replaces the tank, aggroes the boss/adds and takes little or no damage. deals little damage. Doesn't require a dedicated healer.

-Buffer: deals little or mediocre damage and buffs the group so they can do whatever they do better and be able to kill the boss.

-Debuffer: deals mediocre to high damage and weakens the boss so the group can kill the boss.

-CCer: disables multiple adds and let them be killed 1 by 1.

 

With such options that can replace one another one can provide a little more breathing room to the groups and add some replay value to the game.

 

But this requires a class and attribute overhaul, here's how:

The tanks and healers have to use the classes main stats for mitigating/healing (healers do this atm). E.g. Jedi Guardian tanks should use STR instead of defense/absorb ratings to mitigate damage, Trooper vanguards should use Aim etc. and without resetting talents and/or changing gear they should be able to change their role with 1 click. Same with other roles such as debuffing and kiting and every class should be able to apply 2-3 roles with no gear/talent reset, so that any group of classes can hope to find the right setup in any given encounter, except where all players are of the same class. At least in FPs, and OPs can be designed to ask for 5 or more roles for the easiest setup.

 

I believe the new monk class of WoW-MoP will be an attempt for such an alternative role and not just a plain tank or plain healer. Why shouldn't SWTOR choose the same path?

 

 

No, Monks will have three trees. Tank, DPS and healer. Same as a Paladin or Druid. Also, who would purposely choose a role as boring as "CCer" or "Buffer"? The problem with roles like this is that no one would take them because the other jobs are so much more entertaining. If you had classes dedicated to this, and it was a requirement to clear content, it would be a situation where groups would take forever to form due to lack of these specialized classes. EQ tried this with Enchanters and for the most part enchanters were few and far between (though luckily, you could clear content without them). Heck, trinity games already have a lack of tanks and healers normally due to people heavily preferring to DPS... can you imagine if you also had to find a dedicated CCer or Buffer?

 

 

I'm all for adding variety the the trinity system, but not at the expense of making groups harder to form. I'd rather them keep the trinity system and just make boss encounter more fun by adding events/phases to them so you;re not just tanking and spanking the whole time.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Galbatorrix