Not enjoying Jugg PvP in the slightest.

[AJediKnight]

It's bad.

 

I mean, it really just is.

 

Some background:

 

I play a Jugg as my main, and it's astounding how limited we are. Our two highest damaging single-strike abilities -- Savage Kick and Pommel Strike -- can't even be used in PvP. We have a decent snare, but unless you go Immortal, we have absolutely no CC. Every so often I can force push to trigger another force charge, but I have to be nearly in melee range to use the force push in the first place (so it is in no way, shape or form the equivalent of an intercept).

 

We're a situationally strong class in Huttball, but when it comes to more standardized PvP on Alderaan we have extremely, profoundly limited burst even as Rage, and we stand a really strong chance of being kited to death, or chain CC'd without even getting a hit off.

 

It is amazing to me how ranged classes dominate this game. Sages/Sorcs and both Troopers/BHs have a wide array of stuns and snares, but what's even more damaging is their ability to 'run and gun.' Whereas snipers and gunslingers are largely (though not always) tied to their cover, the ability of the caster classes to chain a series of their strongest attacks while staying at range and on the move is almost unbelievable. Pair this with the heavy armor of troopers/BHs, and it's easy to understand why, on my server at least, these guys routinely enjoy streaks in WZs where they reach 'immortal' and rack up 40-50 kills without breaking a sweat.

 

If we look at WoW as being the prime example of how differently ranged is handled in other games, the penalty for being a ranged class is always, always, always A) no heavy armor, and B) a lot of abilities with a cast time. This is why when ice lance-based mages were introduced into WoW in wrath, the community went nuts over frost mages, because the idea of an insta-cast, range-spamming class was practically unheard of in the game. The FOTM in WoW is just as likely to be a feral druid, warrior or rogue as it is to be a priest or a warlock, yet I simply do not see the possibility of such a situation developing here in TOR. In fact, the only melee class that seems to do anything significant in PvP here is the operative/scoundrel, and that's simply because they are built around a series of stuns/CCs that essentially mirror the old stunlocking rogues from vanilla WoW.

 

What's even more astounding is the way that you can be damaged through CCs. In the aforementioned Blizzard product, if, say, a mage nailed you with poly, he couldn't immediately begin pounding on you in melee range and expect to live long. In TOR, the vast majority of CCs can also be cast through -- so I can get hit with a debilitating 5 second stun, and then take damage throughout the entirety.

 

Write this off as QQ all you want, but at the end of the day, I just think the entire thing feels clunky, and biased towards about half the game's classes over others. I see sentinels/guards/marauders getting kited to death in largely the same way I do, and while snipers/slingers can throw down a lot of DPS, the moment they're stunned out of cover they're like tigers without teeth. Frankly, I don't think any class should have a combination of superb damage while on the move and heavy armor and stuns, and yet TOR not only features all these in concert in the BH/Trooper, but these two classes rountinely dominate because of their faceroll mechanics.

 

So, yeah, color me dissatisfied.

Edited February 17, 2012 by AJediKnight

[Huehuecoyotl]

A prime example is leveling a BH compared to a Juggernaut. The BH has excellent AOE, CC, HEALS and range. The juggernaut must close the gap, gets mauled while attacking a pack of weak mobs, no heals, feels squishy in heavy armor. I find myself having to send in Vette first then attack...sad indeed. This lightsaber wielding juggernaut doesn't feel very powerful, at all.

[Uchoo]

Not to be too degrading to this thread, because your point is very valid, look at the macro of it all:

 

Bioware: "We're going to release a Star Wars MMO"

 

Anonymous: "Every fanboy is going to roll a lightsaber wielding class!"

 

Bioware: "Oh yeah, better make them pretty weak at the beginning so the population of that class doesn't explode"

 

Warhammer did it...

[MooshNTwist]

Theres just one problem man. You picked the wrong class to "Dominate" the war zones via damage dealt, or healing or anything in that manor. You're a behind the scenes type of MVP. If you play a tank type of character right in PvP, you will make your teams job a million times easier. You're almost more of a support type than anything.

 

Your job is to be as annoying as you can be. Spam taunt on the heavy DPS classes, like troopers and sages. This will prevent them from hitting at full damage against the rest of your team. Taunt does 30% less damage if they aren't attacking you. Depending on your spec, will change your play style. An immortal will be more focused on being around his team and getting in the middle of everyone and hitting the AoE taunt, then your smash and whatever else you do. I'm not 50 yet, but in the few war zones I've done i can say that if you're expecting to top anything but medals, you're not choosing the right class.

 

Never in any MMO I've played, a tank has been a good damage dealer. The defensive styled warrior is always a skill to be mastered in every MMO. You chose Juggernaut, if you wanted a melee DPS you should have gone Marauder, they have more talents and rage consuming power attacks. As far as i can see, Juggs don't have much in terms of power. It's more to help everyone else, and be in the thick of the action. Also, it helps to make friends with a healer, or just tell them to mark you so that they know who the Juggernauts are.

 

You chose one of the hardest classes to master PvP wise.

 

Theres a few good builds i've seen on these forums, but it looks like no one has found that perfect build for PvP, which is a downside to this class in comparison to the others. All the others have their builds for PvP, and they are proven to work. Even bads can be good at the easy classes. Just keep working at refining your situational awareness, rotation, build, and key bindings until you really feel comfortable and are doing it mindlessly. If you're a really good Juggernaut, I can assure you the enemy will tremble at the sight of your power.

Edited February 17, 2012 by MooshNTwist

[Makhbet]

1. spec Rage

2. use brain

3. ???

4. profit

 

Also, you can replace step 1 with "spec Vengeance" to achieve similar results.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Makhbet

[meshade]

Theres just one problem man. You picked the wrong class to "Dominate" the war zones via damage dealt, or healing or anything in that manor. You're a behind the scenes type of MVP. If you play a tank type of character right in PvP, you will make your teams job a million times easier. You're almost more of a support type than anything.

 

Your job is to be as annoying as you can be. Spam taunt on the heavy DPS classes, like troopers and sages. This will prevent them from hitting at full damage against the rest of your team. Taunt does 30% less damage if they aren't attacking you. Depending on your spec, will change your play style. An immortal will be more focused on being around his team and getting in the middle of everyone and hitting the AoE taunt, then your smash and whatever else you do. I'm not 50 yet, but in the few war zones I've done i can say that if you're expecting to top anything but medals, you're not choosing the right class.

 

Never in any MMO I've played, a tank has been a good damage dealer. The defensive styled warrior is always a skill to be mastered in every MMO. You chose Juggernaut, if you wanted a melee DPS you should have gone Marauder, they have more talents and rage consuming power attacks. As far as i can see, Juggs don't have much in terms of power. It's more to help everyone else, and be in the thick of the action. Also, it helps to make friends with a healer, or just tell them to mark you so that they know who the Juggernauts are.

 

You chose one of the hardest classes to master PvP wise.

 

Theres a few good builds i've seen on these forums, but it looks like no one has found that perfect build for PvP, which is a downside to this class in comparison to the others. All the others have their builds for PvP, and they are proven to work. Even bads can be good at the easy classes. Just keep working at refining your situational awareness, rotation, build, and key bindings until you really feel comfortable and are doing it mindlessly. If you're a really good Juggernaut, I can assure you the enemy will tremble at the sight of your power.

 

Except that Juggernaut doesn't have talent trees called - suppor//annoying//defense, so when we spec into dps we would like to have at least couple of tools that are given to a proper dpsers.

 

Example - marauder when specced properly can self heal and got defensive cooldowns so that he can go into melee inside of a group and still deal his damage, Juggernaut on the other hand goes in, pops cds and still die.

I'm not saying that jugg is unplayable, hell I enjoy vengeance a lot, but to say that we are only there to support with annoying taunts and intercedes is just wrong.

 

Just remove the god damn restrictions from savage kick and pommel strike or give us Disarm

[Vandewater]

Not to be too degrading to this thread, because your point is very valid, look at the macro of it all:

 

Bioware: "We're going to release a Star Wars MMO"

 

Anonymous: "Every fanboy is going to roll a lightsaber wielding class!"

 

Bioware: "Oh yeah, better make them pretty weak at the beginning so the population of that class doesn't explode"

 

Warhammer did it...

 

Indeed, though I still enjoyed my Chaos Warrior and pwnt nubs with it...well except for Priests but they were hella OP.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Vandewater

[Korevas]

While it seems to get a bit better later on, early pvp as a jugg is quite frustrating still, and the "buff" to force push is mediocre at best. It helped making push not totally useless after we lost pull (it seems at some point in beta we had both push and pull so it made sense to have push as a tool to knock people in hazards etc.) but really its still not anywhere near useful for actually getting to someone since you have to be in the 10m range, and for that we have obliterate already.

I'd vote for either giving us back force pull, or a talent that refreshes force charge on knockdown somewhere high up in the vengeance tree.

[MooshNTwist]

Except that Juggernaut doesn't have talent trees called - suppor//annoying//defense, so when we spec into dps we would like to have at least couple of tools that are given to a proper dpsers.

 

Example - marauder when specced properly can self heal and got defensive cooldowns so that he can go into melee inside of a group and still deal his damage, Juggernaut on the other hand goes in, pops cds and still die.

I'm not saying that jugg is unplayable, hell I enjoy vengeance a lot, but to say that we are only there to support with annoying taunts and intercedes is just wrong.

 

Just remove the gosh darn restrictions from savage kick and pommel strike or give us Disarm

 

Ohh no trust me, I'm not saying the class is perfect or anywhere near it. I'm just saying that you cant expect to roll a defensively minded spec and expect to DPS up with the big boys. If you wanted to DPS then roll Marauder, if you wanted to use more defensive approach then Juggernaut is your bet. And i agree, taking off the restrictions for pommel strike and savage kick WHILE IN PvP, would make our lives much easier. As it stands we don't have **** to generate good damage and putting circumstances on those strikes makes them almost unusable in PvP, where if you're sitting there looking at your action bars and C/D's you lost. And a Disarm would be amazing for our class. I second that motion for a Disarm.

 

 

While it seems to get a bit better later on, early pvp as a jugg is quite frustrating still, and the "buff" to force push is mediocre at best. It helped making push not totally useless after we lost pull (it seems at some point in beta we had both push and pull so it made sense to have push as a tool to knock people in hazards etc.) but really its still not anywhere near useful for actually getting to someone since you have to be in the 10m range, and for that we have obliterate already.

I'd vote for either giving us back force pull, or a talent that refreshes force charge on knockdown somewhere high up in the vengeance tree.

 

 

I wish we had Force Pull. It makes more sense to have Pull than Push....

Edited February 18, 2012 by MooshNTwist

[Rotm]

Tank Juggs survive well enough, but they simply don't hit hard enough to not be ignored. Even in pug pvp scenarios where I lack a healer I think they can be just tanked or kited around stairs, pillars, etc for far too long.

 

A Vanguard seems to be a much greater damage threat to me. They can pop a crit buff and drop a 4 skill rotation in tank build that can deliver a good burst quickly with some luck.

[Assaultrooper]

Ohh no trust me, I'm not saying the class is perfect or anywhere near it. I'm just saying that you cant expect to roll a defensively minded spec and expect to DPS up with the big boys. If you wanted to DPS then roll Marauder, if you wanted to use more defensive approach then Juggernaut is your bet. And i agree, taking off the restrictions for pommel strike and savage kick WHILE IN PvP, would make our lives much easier. As it stands we don't have **** to generate good damage and putting circumstances on those strikes makes them almost unusable in PvP, where if you're sitting there looking at your action bars and C/D's you lost. And a Disarm would be amazing for our class. I second that motion for a Disarm.

 

You would be walf-correct if we indeed were "defensive minded" as of now I am atleast x2 times more squishy than my marauder Notice*** (Level 21 Mara> Lvl 50 Jugg in defensive abilities!) I mean unlike what you are implying and most of you, our dps is fine! it truly is, the true problem is as follows:

 

1st Most of our dps can be easily avoided specially when someone notices you are hacking at them. (I.E: You are rage spec, most of ur smashes will most probably be missed due to server lag, if you are vangeance your top dmg talent which refreshes ravage is rendered useless in PvP).

 

2nd We dont have the tools to truly mantain snared a guy (If you are not tank specced) In my PT the snare is tied to my rotation, the same with my Marauder, the same with my Assassin. They all have a snare tied to the rotation while we have to go out of our way (sacrificing an entire GCD) to snare someone.

 

3rd Sith Warriors have the only interrupt that costs resources.

 

4th Jugg survival, we are supposed to be the "Tanky Class" yet our survival pales in comparison to everything out there. Just to make it focused, our "Jugg racial" blade turning makes saber ward empowered for about 3 secs after use? with 100% range/melee defense. IF you havnt noticed! Force Lightning, Tracer Missle, and most "Special" ability do not fall in that category! while the a marauder get a 5 sec complete immunity....

 

That said, going back to the "If you chose jugg you should roll tank argument." its complete rubbish. Bioware has stated that each spec most be viable in what they do. Besides its not like in that other game you would tell Arms Warriors to reroll say rogues "because warriors are meant to be tanks!", and yes AC= normal mmo classes, Bioware has again reinforced this notion. Checkout last weeks Q&A.

 

Cheers.

[meshade]

Also for a comparison, try PT tank in pvp gear vs Jugg tank in pvp gear and embrace the results :>

[meshade]

You would be walf-correct if we indeed were "defensive minded" as of now I am atleast x2 times more squishy than my marauder Notice*** (Level 21 Mara> Lvl 50 Jugg in defensive abilities!) I mean unlike what you are implying and most of you, our dps is fine! it truly is, the true problem is as follows:

 

1st Most of our dps can be easily avoided specially when someone notices you are hacking at them. (I.E: You are rage spec, most of ur smashes will most probably be missed due to server lag, if you are vangeance your top dmg talent which refreshes ravage is rendered useless in PvP).

 

2nd We dont have the tools to truly mantain snared a guy (If you are not tank specced) In my PT the snare is tied to my rotation, the same with my Marauder, the same with my Assassin. They all have a snare tied to the rotation while we have to go out of our way (sacrificing an entire GCD) to snare someone.

 

3rd Sith Warriors have the only interrupt that costs resources.

 

4th Jugg survival, we are supposed to be the "Tanky Class" yet our survival pales in comparison to everything out there. Just to make it focused, our "Jugg racial" blade turning makes saber ward empowered for about 3 secs after use? with 100% range/melee defense. IF you havnt noticed! Force Lightning, Tracer Missle, and most "Special" ability do not fall in that category! while the a marauder get a 5 sec complete immunity....

 

That said, going back to the "If you chose jugg you should roll tank argument." its complete rubbish. Bioware has stated that each spec most be viable in what they do. Besides its not like in that other game you would tell Arms Warriors to reroll say rogues "because warriors are meant to be tanks!", and yes AC= normal mmo classes, Bioware has again reinforced this notion. Checkout last weeks Q&A.

 

Cheers.

 

Quoting your whole post to say this - blade turning is only 2 secs! LOLJUGG

[Dee-Jay]

God how I hate people who tell me what my supposed "role" is in PvP.

 

If I spec into DPS, I want to deal viable DPS and while Juggernauts can deliver on that front, they fall through in just about every other aspect that defines a good melee DPS class in PvP.

 

The lack of survivability is frustrating even at the best of time.

 

It's incomprehensible how we can have such a poor and limited tool-set to enhance our chance of survival. Add the perma-stun and the ****y resolve system as icing on the cake and you have the arguably most frustrating class to play on PvP.

 

Outside of Sweep Bombs, DPS-Guardians don't have a single PvP quality.

[meshade]

They can put dots on target that tick for 85? ~^

[Wrack]

Juggernauts have ONE tank tree; TWO damage/dps trees. OP has a legitimate gripe. Marauders, underpowered or not, can out DPS all of our trees and out survive two out of three of our trees. This IS a problem.

[Azaius]

I'm not seeing how Juggs are underpowered in PvP. Immortal, while absolutely terrible at damage, is very good at staying alive, disrupting players, and protecting dps/heals. Rage's damage is on par to many other classes because of its reliable high burst that can also hit several targets. Can't really comment on Vengeance except that I tried it once and hated it.

 

The only thing that seems to be going against Juggs is that we're a melee class. As Rage spec I'm consistently top damage with 300k+ and can still save people on the brink of death with intercede, taunt, and guard to reduce their damage taken to virtually nothing. Many people underestimate how good of a DPS class it really is, you just have to work a bit harder and pay more attention to surroundings than ranged classes do.

[frozeqube]

You need time + expertise. I was frustrated at first, now I do well. Patience .