You say "No Endgame", are you kidding me?

[Elfindreams]

hehe, I've known some of those middle-aged gaming women, and they take these game much more seriously than they should. Spending way more time online than healthy. The two hour a night crowd and limited weekend players, that are what I am, are not the norm, I don't think.

 

 

Actually I can almost guarantee you that you are more the norm than you think. Its just the two hour a night crowd and limited weekend players don't spend all their time at work on forums, etc. They tend to fly under the radar.

 

Even in the pre-MMO world of MUDs and MUSHs (well before even the idea of online gaming had hit "mainstream" or "casual" gamers) insane people like me who lost an entire semester to the things were the lower population.

 

However at the time those insane people were the ones writing the games and generating the content, and now those insane people are the brand fanatics that really sell the games... so they tend to take the spotlight.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Elfindreams

[Meldwyn]

Absolutely not! But, then again, I didn't make sweeping generalizations about anyone in game or out of the game either... or chalk it up to some societal malady... now did I?

 

Did I miss your response to my question LaVolpex? You were quick to throw one in my face...

 

hmmmm

[Vydor_HC]

Actually I can almost guarantee you that you are more the norm than you think. Its just the two hour a night crowd and limited weekend players don't spend all their time at work on forums, etc. They tend to fly under the radar.

 

Even in the pre-MMO world of MUDs and MUSHs (well before even the idea of online gaming had hit "mainstream" or "casual" gamers) insane people like me who lost an entire semester to the things were the lower population.

 

However at the time those insane people were the ones writing the games and generating the cotnent, and now those insane people are the brand fanatics that really sell the games... so they tend to take the spotlight.

 

-shrugs-

 

I know what it was like during the MUD craze, that was my "gamer" years. Spend tons of time online and in game. I consider that crowd to be the norm when it comes to gaming. Folks like me who do it a few hours a week are outside the norm, we just don't have the time anymore. I know I am outside the norm when it comes to everyone I play with online, they are regular gamers. I'd like to think I was in the majority, but I don't.

[Dayfax]

Make a game that panders to both Hardcores AND Casuals by offering actual end-game content with low barrier to entry but very high skill cap.

 

You know, like...making hardmodes and nightmare modes actually mean something beyond adding 10% to hp and damage per "difficulty tier".

 

Because it costs them money.

 

Why would you spend developer time designing & implementing fights that only 3% of your player base actually sees?

 

Much more cost effective to streamline the hell out of everything.

[Elfindreams]

-shrugs-

 

I know what it was like during the MUD craze, that was my "gamer" years. Spend tons of time online and in game. I consider that crowd to be the norm when it comes to gaming. Folks like me who do it a few hours a week are outside the norm, we just don't have the time anymore. I know I am outside the norm when it comes to everyone I play with online, they are regular gamers. I'd like to think I was in the majority, but I don't.

 

I am starting to wonder if what is missing in modern MMOs, ironically enough, is user generated content.

 

Once you hit a certain tier of gaming back then the logical progression was to start generating content. The gods of the MU* would make you a wizard or whatever the local convention was on the game in question and you could start building areas you thought were lacking.

 

Weren't enough hard endgame content... make some. Game owner being a ****, make your own.

 

Don't get me wrong... the games themselves are millions of times better these days, but that ability to generate new content was an outlet for the people who were fanatical about a game. It also served as a status symbol... you had to be good if you were the wizard that created << insert name of popular area here >>.

 

You need only look to modding communities around certain games to see the same thing at play in modern gaming... Not sure how well that can play in an MMO tho. But I think /something/ might be able to be come up with.

[Emeda]

Behind Door #1 we have Casuals..tell them what it offers -- Majority Sales!

Behind door #2 we have Hardcores...tell them what it offers -- Minority Sales!

 

Is it really a surprise when they pick door #1?

 

I get that it should be made for everyone, but it is unlikely anyone will target the lower number when you're in the business of making money.

 

1. making the game for everyone means no one quits and they make more money.

2. making the game for a certain group that when you change it for them, they just demand it to be changed again will make you spend more money on them and not bring in any more money (thats losing money).

3. making a game so that everyone can do it in no time just means that you are wasting paying your devs to make the game.

[Amiracle]

Wonder why Bioware couldn't pick the door #3 :

 

Make a game that panders to both Hardcores AND Casuals by offering actual end-game content with low barrier to entry but very high skill cap.

 

You know, like...making hardmodes and nightmare modes actually mean something beyond adding 10% to hp and damage per "difficulty tier".

 

Because eventually someone will QQ that they want to do the hardcore stuff too but only after it has been turned into normal mode.

 

Raiding is about gearing.

 

1) More time invested and or challenge gets loot table A.

 

2) Less time invested and less challenge gets loot table B.

 

Guess which group wants to do 2 but get loot table A.

 

That is the crux of the issue.

[Inixus]

big talk from someone who claimed ZG was in at launch.

 

m8, plz stop posting these silly things, your making yourself look bad now you kno..., i didnt claimed ZG was in launch, vanilla endgame= UBRS, ZG, Ruins of ahnq, Onyx lair, MC, BWL, Temple of ahnq, Naxx... and again, blue drops from zg bosses, common dude....

Edited February 16, 2012 by Inixus

[Snido]

I've read through a lot of these posts and there is a lot of "Well X didn't have as much end game content so SWTOR shouldn't be expected to." Since WoW seems to be a large focus of this lets go there. WoW came out 7 years ago...Wait let that sink in...7 YEARS AGO. Are you saying in 7 years that there has been no progress and we should expect the same experience? If you take a computer or cellphone or other piece of technology from 7 years ago and compare it to today's technology you will see a large leap forward, so why should we settle with such a large step back (especially with the budget they had)? If I'm paying for the latest and greatest (what this was touted to be) why should I settle with the same product I could have gotten 7 YEARS AGO? By arguing that stuff like WoW had the same amount of content you are only proving our point that the content is not up to snuff with the current times.

 

tl;dr

Defending this games end game content by saying that WoW didnt have it only proves that the content is insufficient and outdated. WoW came out 7 years ago, this game should not be equal to WoW, it should surpass it.

[gtmach]

Content is always consumed way faster than created.

 

Even with hard modes and such.

 

Anytime WoW releases a new raid dungeon and heroics, within a week the top guilds finish everything. Within a month, everyone else does.

 

Still have to wait another 5 months before the next patch...

 

All MMOs run into this issue. It's a vicious cycle. We get bored and as soon as new content comes in, we dive into it and finish it all ASAP. Then we get bored again.

 

We feel this issue more here because WoW already has tons of content from being established for years. So if you're not good enough for the latest raid content, the previous content is made easier so you're occupied with that.

 

SWTOR is fighting an uphill battle. There is no previous content to look back to.

 

BW could come out with more endgame tomorrow but we'll be back here complaining about a lack of endgame next week....

[Ashnazg]

Because it costs them money.

 

Why would you spend developer time designing & implementing fights that only 3% of your player base actually sees?

 

Much more cost effective to streamline the hell out of everything.

 

Because even the most hardcorest of contents eventually ends up trickling down to the masses, and that elusive carrot is what keeps the people chasing it?

 

Its pretty basic, without a hard-to-reach goal that people keep trying for they will quit the game.

 

A little extra effort to please the 3% crowd would end up saving them a lot more money by preventing mass player exodus that they are seeing now. *shrug* Next time they should hire some McK analysts.

[Barracudastr]

I am not so sure, just work with me on this. A lot of players want to say "MMOs are all about XXXX" where XXXX is PvE. PvP, Endgame, Crafting, etc... In reality MMOs are about all of these things and none. Some of the best MMO content IMO is the stuff that is interdependent and pulls you into a part of the game you haven't hyperfocused on.

 

For example, wormhole content in EVE, where to be the best industrialist or get the best PvE gear you needed to go into a highly charged PvP area. Or at least get the stuff from someone who does. Same with the best PvP mods which are dropped from PvE content.

 

It helps make a game more long term stable because people will be pulled out of their comfort zone and be forced to come to terms with new and different challenges.

 

Now SWTOR isn't quite at the same level of gameplay diversity so I can see where you are coming from. I do think there needs to be distinct gear with marked advantages and disadvantages... I just think that some of the best PvE gear should only be obtainable through PvP and vica versa. Its just another form of challenge.

 

While I agree its just the fact that if that were to be how you got gear there would be endless threads about how bad it is.

 

I cant get geared because im bad at pvp etc etc things like that which would force bioware to redo it again and imo I just dont think this community could handle it you have players here that just want nothing to do with pvp unless its on their terms, and even then they dont pvp lol.

 

So it would bring up issues for pve type players that just like pve.

 

The way I am suggesting would cater to both crowds the pvper's and the pve crowd both casual and hardcore but it would cater to them in a way where it seperates them from each other.

 

Pvp'ers pvp non stop for their pvp gear they have no reason to pve because the gear is for pve so they dont need it and vise versa the pve'ers just pve for that shiney legendary gear at the end of the road on nightmare mode and they do so just to pve some more knowing its not pvp gear.

 

Then you will have folks that do a little of each.

 

I would love to see a system that makes you do both but I can see how it would fail and bite bioware in the butt.

[Vydor_HC]

I am starting to wonder if what is missing in modern MMOs, ironically enough, is user generated content.

 

Once you hit a certain tier of gaming back then the logical progression was to start generating content. The gods of the MU* would make you a wizard or whatever the local convention was on the game in question and you could start building areas you thought were lacking.

 

Weren't enough hard endgame content... make some. Game owner being a ****, make your own.

 

Don't get me wrong... the games themselves are millions of times better these days, but that ability to generate new content was an outlet for the people who were fanatical about a game. It also served as a status symbol... you had to be good if you were the wizard that created << insert name of popular area here >>.

 

You need only look to modding communities around certain games to see the same thing at play in modern gaming... Not sure how well that can play in an MMO tho. But I think /something/ might be able to be come up with.

 

Wow, wizards in a MUD, that's a term I haven't heard referred to in years. Yeah, creating quests, map locations, rooms, etc by the players themselves really made the games last and be unique.

 

It's kinda ironic how going to a graphical world actually limits the imagination of the players in the games.

 

But I totally agree with you, and it's one of the reasons I like to play games that lend themselves to role playing and facilitate players to create stuff when they can. LOTRO is a good example, they have some really nice features in the game, like the music system which players can use to create online events. I still play that game on a weekly basis.

 

 

/salute

 

It's always nice to find an old MUD mate.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Vikassi]

I have played:

 

World of Warcraft (had lvl 70 Mage, when 70 was the lvl cap)

Lord of the Rings Online (2x Lvl 75s at cap, main top geared, several other alts)

Star Wars Galaxies (played almost a year)

Star Trek Online (one character at Lvl Max)

Runescape

DC Universe Online

 

And I can truely say that SWTOR has as much if not more endgame than any of those.

 

Daily Quests on Ilum

Daily Quests on Belsavis

Operations

Flashpoints

Space Combat

Datacrons

Companions affection and storeline

Crafting

Ilum PvP

other world PvP (Tatoonine)

Warzones

Social lvl

Valour lvl

 

Are you people kidding me? No endgame.

 

Im actually worried about your social life and not the end game content of swtor...

[TonyIommi]

I've read through a lot of these posts and there is a lot of "Well X didn't have as much end game content so SWTOR shouldn't be expected to." Since WoW seems to be a large focus of this lets go there. WoW came out 7 years ago...Wait let that sink in...7 YEARS AGO. Are you saying in 7 years that there has been no progress and we should expect the same experience? If you take a computer or cellphone or other piece of technology from 7 years ago and compare it to today's technology you will see a large leap forward, so why should we settle with such a large step back (especially with the budget they had)? If I'm paying for the latest and greatest (what this was touted to be) why should I settle with the same product I could have gotten 7 YEARS AGO? By arguing that stuff like WoW had the same amount of content you are only proving our point that the content is not up to snuff with the current times.

 

tl;dr

Defending this games end game content by saying that WoW didnt have it only proves that the content is insufficient and outdated. WoW came out 7 years ago, this game should not be equal to WoW, it should surpass it.

 

 

 

Adding end game content isn't a matter of technological advancement. It's a matter of just raw time invested by the developers. Theirs no way they could have as much content as a game of 7 years simply because ITS EXISTED FOR 7 YEARS.

[bboudreaux]

Daily quests are not end game.

 

 

 

Two bugged ones, but yes this is end game.

 

 

 

Limited exposure due to server population issues - but yes, this is end game content if you're running hardmodes.

 

 

 

None of that is end game either.

 

Yea, well that is your opinion .. the OP states facts

 

anything you can do when you are max level is endgame .. just because you and/or 6 billion people disagree, does not make your opinion a fact

[Ashnazg]

You need only look to modding communities around certain games to see the same thing at play in modern gaming... Not sure how well that can play in an MMO tho. But I think /something/ might be able to be come up with.

 

EQ2 has user-created dungeons now.

 

You get rare drop monster cards from normal PvE content, and then apparently you can build your own dungeons.

 

I don't know much more about it, but the option is there.

 

Why is it in their best interest to bother with a tiny selfish demanding demographic?? when those people who are still level 35 that are speaking of are legion and are pretty damn happy with things the way they are now??

 

Because that "selfish demographic" writes the majority of the reviews for the game, is more loyal to the game (e.g. less likely to quit if treated right), and generally is far more local in the internet space. Why shoot yourself in the foot by pissing this demographic off?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ashnazg

[Snido]

Adding end game content isn't a matter of technological advancement. It's a matter of just raw time invested by the developers. Theirs no way they could have as much content as a game of 7 years simply because ITS EXISTED FOR 7 YEARS.

 

You don't know how to read so I'll try again. I'm stating that comparing WoW AT LAUNCH to SWTOR AT LAUNCH and justifying the end game content with that is a poor argument.

[Morthis]

then its a problem with expectations, because i do not see "regrinding raids because my piece wont drop every week" as worthwhile "endgame content" gimme a break!

 

i just dont get you people, you WANT tedium , or is it that you want the "Casuals" to not have it as the same time/ before you do?

 

just what im percieving , i apologize if wrong

 

I want to address two things.

 

First, so some extend, grinding is necessary in an MMO. It's simply impossible to create content at such a pace that people can keep going through it without seeing any level of repetition. Even if they were simply trying to keep up with casual players this would be impossible. All they can do is make it so that the grinding doesn't feel like something that isn't fun. Whether that's tokens from dailies, PvP ranks, weekly raids, whatever, some form of repetition has to be present in an MMO. Now the best way to encourage you to participate in this repetition is by giving rewards for doing so, which comes in the form of gear. In that sense, grinding will always exist in MMO's. If they simply gave you the gear with minimal effort, people would feel like there are no goals left for them to achieve and move on.

 

Now in regards to raids specifically. My point is that if they choose to go with raiding as their PvE end game, then there's basic formula to keep in mind. Part of this formula is pacing the rate at which people go through it, simply because designing more raids takes time. Now you say, the type of design where you have to go back for weeks on end to collect all your loot really screws casuals, but my point is, I'm not sure raiding was ever designed for people who are very casual. I imagine people like that play whenever they feel like playing (not when a schedule says they should log on). Heck a bunch of them probably aren't 50 yet, enjoying the story. By it's very design, raiding is typically does not hold the greatest appeal to casuals, yet it's paced in such a way that a very limited amount of playtime is enough to completely finish it (meaning both clear it all and finish gearing from it). This leaves me wondering who they even had in mind with raids, especially the harder modes. I have a very hard time imagining that those extremely casual players will be pursuing NMM any time soon, and yet anyone even remotely hardcore has cleared it a long time ago. So who did they have in mind? I don't get that.

 

I actually feel WoW found a fairly good mix for that. LFR for people who do want to try raiding, but without schedule commitments and the ability to say "I'm logging off right this second" without any issues, normal mode for more casual players who can make a schedule commitment but don't care to spend much of their week on it, and heroic modes for the hardcore who want to sink time into raiding.

[TonyIommi]

You don't know how to read so I'll try again. I'm stating that comparing WoW AT LAUNCH to SWTOR AT LAUNCH and justifying the end game content with that is a poor argument.

 

Oh I understand what you meant but the total amount of end game content has no relevancy to the periods at which they were developed. Simply put you can and should expect alot of features and technological advancements but its entirely unreasonable for you to expect the same same amount of content as that is simply a matter of raw time.

[Emeda]

Wonder why Bioware couldn't pick the door #3 :

 

Make a game that panders to both Hardcores AND Casuals by offering actual end-game content with low barrier to entry but very high skill cap.

 

You know, like...making hardmodes and nightmare modes actually mean something beyond adding 10% to hp and damage per "difficulty tier".

 

Because group 1 would want what group 2 has.

 

There is no reward for effort in these games anymore. Everyone demands that they get the same items as anyone else no matter what. Then they wonder why everyone quits from boredom. Having everyone the same destroys games you must have the rich and the poor and the middle class in all games.

[Morthis]

Many developers have painted themselves into a corner by caving to the smallest minority; even if they gave you Three more Nightmare modes tomorrow you would be here crying it's too easy and not enough in a matter of days....you can't satiate the insatiable Bioware knows this.

 

Bioware also knows exactly how petty this minority is; that when they don't get their way they resort to all kinds of disruptive behavior.

 

Why is it in their best interest to bother with a tiny selfish demanding demographic?? when those people who are still level 35 that are speaking of are legion and are pretty damn happy with things the way they are now??

 

The point you're missing is, why did they add raids? Not for the guy who is level 35 2 months in, he'll take half a year before he's 50 and done with HM flashpoints, and he may fancy an alt after that. They certainly didn't add them for the hardcore, those blew through them on the hardest setting in a single night, and finished gearing in another 2 weeks. Maybe guys in the middle? Those blow through it in a single night too, and have probably finished gearing too by now. So what exactly was their target? It almost seems like the pace of raiding is designed in such a way that spending more than 1 hour per week will trivialize it, but anyone who plays that little will have a ways to go before even seeing raids in the first place. I simply cannot think of any group they were aiming for with their raids, and I'm left to assume they simply did a very poor job tuning them (which given the massive amount of bugs in raiding, sounds like a perfectly fair assumption).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Morthis

[Barracudastr]

Because group 1 would want what group 2 has.

 

There is no reward for effort in these games anymore. Everyone demands that they get the same items as anyone else no matter what. Then they wonder why everyone quits from boredom. Having everyone the same destroys games you must have the rich and the poor and the middle class in all games.

 

Blizzard does this though.

 

When a new xpac is released they dont start nerfing till most of their hardcore players have cleared hardmode content and gotten the gear then they start nerfing for people that just couldn't do it.

[Ashnazg]

Because group 1 would want what group 2 has.

 

There is no reward for effort in these games anymore. Everyone demands that they get the same items as anyone else no matter what. Then they wonder why everyone quits from boredom. Having everyone the same destroys games you must have the rich and the poor and the middle class in all games.

 

The amount of whining from group A wanting what group B has is probably going to be less (and less damaging to the game if ignored) than the amount of whining present now.

[Snido]

Oh I understand what you meant but the total amount of end game content has no relevancy to the periods at which they were developed. Simply put you can and should expect alot of features and technological advancements but its entirely unreasonable for you to expect the same same amount of content as that is simply a matter of raw time.

 

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that we should expect more content from SWTOR at Launch then WoW at Launch. I was not drawing comparisons between the two today, but stating that SWTOR should have more content then WoW did when WoW launched. Arguing that they should be the same after SWTOR has had 7 years to watch the development of stuff like WoW and by that virtue be able to avoid a lack of end game content. Not saying that WoW was the first, but they were definitely working from a cleaner slate then SWTOR was. SWTOR has the models and examples from which to create more endgame, its not like they are making it from scratch. They have had 7 years of stuff they can research see what works and what didnt and be able to put together more then they have. I should have every right to expect more from SWTOR at launch in every respect then I should of WoW when it launched. And if you want to go on about "SWTOR's technical advancements" I would personally LOVE to hear what those are.