Logical fallacy of punishing WZ quitters - It will hurt more than help

[admriker]

Thats ok because i bet thats not even one in 10 matches,then you will get your 15 minute timeout and go and have a pop tart.

 

actually it happens quite a bit in warzones on my server. I rarely see more than 1 healer in any warzone. and id estimate that about 20% of the warzones i enter have zero healers.

 

its always such a surprise when i actually get heals that it feels like i won the lottery. I pretty much expect not to receive any heals for most warzones.

 

and i dont mind normally, im used to fending for myself. but im not going to waste 15 minutes as farm bait for the other side when theyre a premade and we have zero healers. its a pure slaughter and pointless.

[Slackfumasta]

Why do you think so many people AFK'd in WoW....

 

The reward for AFKing was pretty much the same as actually participating in WoW, which is a little different than the way TOR is. It's still profitable to AFK, but more profitable to actually participate.

[Sathid]

actually it happens quite a bit in warzones on my server. I rarely see more than 1 healer in any warzone. and id estimate that about 20% of the warzones i enter have zero healers.

 

its always such a surprise when i actually get heals that it feels like i won the lottery. I pretty much expect not to receive any heals for most warzones.

 

and i dont mind normally, im used to fending for myself. but im not going to waste 15 minutes as farm bait for the other side when theyre a premade and we have zero healers. its a pure slaughter and pointless.

 

Dont tell me people do not win without healers,ive played so many WZ's,i recall one we had zero healers and beat the opposing team that had three,and no these were not bad players either.

[TheRFC]

LOL!

 

Ok, what do you think Bioware will do.... will it

 

a) Implement a deserter debuff, which is the same system that every other MMO uses and that is known to work perfectly

 

b) Implement a reward for people that do not leave, which is a system never used anywhere and that only works until the people have all the rewards, if at all

 

c) Implement objective based incentives in the form of daily quests that were part of Warhammer Online and that fail in reality and are known to not work

 

d) Not do anything at all and have this games PvP die

 

Now, thinking that Bioware is part of EA and wants to earn money, and thinking of risk vs reward considerations...

 

WHAT do you think they will choose? Hm..... I am wondering...

 

 

 

(D)

 

 

This game has chronic flaws that they can't simply 'patch' and it will inevitably die. Debuff they're guarenteed to lose people they already can't afford to lose.

 

The 'chronic flaws' are that people can cap a toon WAY too fast and the end-game content is next to none-existent. 'But it's still early days' ... exactly! Why have 25% of accounts already have one or more L50? This will shoot up exponentially over the next couple of weeks.

 

Second flaw is faction imbalance. This can't be fixed.

 

Now, BW is going to have to try and squeeze money out of people whilst they can, they're run out of ideas and this game was a flash in the pan, 1 hit wonder for a couple of months.

 

As soon as the 'casuals' catch up and 70-80% have an L50 toon, 3-4 WZs and some BS Rated-WZ system won't keep them around.

 

Unless BW are planning on surprising everyone by releasing almost double the current PvP content we already have PLUS a new level cap that takes weeks and weeks (not hours or days) to get to w/ gear that takes months to acquire and isn't thrown at players theeeen ... it's got a month or just over to keep afloat.

 

I don't hold it against BW, I'll most likely drop this game as soon as their Mass Effect 3 comes out But this is an overall failed attempt to try and syncronise a dynamic story driven game with an MMO.

[Faat]

Why do you think so many people AFK'd in WoW....

 

In WAR they implemented a quitter debuff and they after 2 mins afk you have 1 min to do something or they kick you out and you get quitter debuff anyway. WINWIN

 

Also, if you used some macro to not trigger the afk debuff, they'll catch you someday. I know LOTS of people that got their accounts banned (not permanently though) for this.

[savionen]

The reward for AFKing was pretty much the same as actually participating in WoW, which is a little different than the way TOR is. It's still profitable to AFK, but more profitable to actually participate.

 

It's a little different because of the medal system for sure, but you still got Honor for killing people in WoW if you were losing, or killing people solo, so it's not TOO different.

 

My point was if you force people into a losing situation they're just going to afk.

 

In WAR they implemented a quitter debuff and they after 2 mins afk you have 1 min to do something or they kick you out and you get quitter debuff anyway. WINWIN

 

Also, if you used some macro to not trigger the afk debuff, they'll catch you someday. I know LOTS of people that got their accounts banned (not permanently though) for this.

 

They don't seem to punish afkers or exploiters or botters so far in SWTOR.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[EyeRekon]

I understand that people quit because they don't want to get owned and it isn't fun for them. But there are legitimate reasons to leave. People, like me, who have very limited playtime. If I have somewhere in the range of 20-30 minutes before I can be interrupted by RL, I feel like I have an opportunity to play. I don't want to spend that time walking all over a planet, killing mobs in PVE, or browsing the GTN. I want to PVP really fast like an FPS game.

 

So I get in, things are going fine, but dangit duty calls. Got to bail right now. Ignoring commentary that I shouldn't enter a WZ at all what would be the right thing to do? Should I leave and take some kind of penalty (whatever that might be) or should I AFK?

 

What's best for the team? Is it better that I stay AFK, avoid a penalty, harm the team, and collect some awards at the end even for losing? Or is it better that I vacate my team slot so some other PuG person can fill it and hopefully aid the team?

 

If it is best that I leave, what if the penalty turns out to be significant enough that I don't want to?

 

It really depends on the kind of penalty we are talking about. If it is something tangible or part of a persistent record it'll be avoided. There will be a minority of legitimate cases for leaving and hopefully the penalty will not affect them. For example if you are prohibited from entering a WZ for 10 minutes, that wouldn't matter for someone who had to quit if they won't get another chance to play for a few hours anyway.

[Sathid]

(D)

 

 

This game has chronic flaws that they can't simply 'patch' and it will inevitably die. Debuff they're guarenteed to lose people they already can't afford to lose.

 

The 'chronic flaws' are that people can cap a toon WAY too fast and the end-game content is next to none-existent. 'But it's still early days' ... exactly! Why have 25% of accounts already have one or more L50? This will shoot up exponentially over the next couple of weeks.

 

Second flaw is faction imbalance. This can't be fixed.

 

Now, BW is going to have to try and squeeze money out of people whilst they can, they're run out of ideas and this game was a flash in the pan, 1 hit wonder for a couple of months.

 

As soon as the 'casuals' catch up and 70-80% have an L50 toon, 3-4 WZs and some BS Rated-WZ system won't keep them around.

 

Unless BW are planning on surprising everyone by releasing almost double the current PvP content we already have PLUS a new level cap that takes weeks and weeks (not hours or days) to get to w/ gear that takes months to acquire and isn't thrown at players theeeen ... it's got a month or just over to keep afloat.

 

I don't hold it against BW, I'll most likely drop this game as soon as their Mass Effect 3 comes out But this is an overall failed attempt to try and syncronise a dynamic story driven game with an MMO.

 

BW isnt stupid and they have been real quick at responding on some things,they have a card or two up their sleeve i bet.

[Chunkie]

I agree with the OP. And I think the root of the problem is blowout losses and teams that farm relentlessly when they're winning. It just isn't fun when that happens and it's worth losing the xp and medals to get out of that situation, or better yet, if I see it coming, to leave before it starts.

 

That's fine, and if you're want to do that, you should pay the penalty for doing it. If another team dominates you, then you know what, they dominate you. That's part of life, sometimes you're going to go up against a good team of players, and sometimes you will go up against a team of bad players, and sometimes you'll be on the team of good players.

 

If you want to bail, keep the exit button there for those that still want to. But penalize them for ruining it for the rest of the group.

 

If you can't handle being on a bad team or losing, DON'T PVP.

[Tierce]

for starters for whatever necessity there is to institute some so of penalty for leaving warzones, its currently problematic simply due to the stupid knockdown bug where you rez on your back and can't move in ad get kicked.

 

Just wanted to comment on this and hope you check back to see it. I was having this problem a lot (and still do sometimes), but had a friend from another server come over to play with us and he said it could be fixed by pressing the ESC button. This has actually worked a lot of the time and it is now a lot rarer that I am completely bugged with no way to fix it.

[admriker]

Dont tell me people do not win without healers,ive played so many WZ's,i recall one we had zero healers and beat the opposing team that had three,and no these were not bad players either.

 

oh Ive won many warzones without a healer. but not vs a premade.

 

its so pointless to even bother. go in and try to kill one of their healers only to have another healer turn and heal him. then two of his other buddies cc and rip you to shreds. you have no chance whatsoever. skills, gear, strategy, all utterly pointless in that scenario.

 

all you can do is die repeatedly, no thanks. im not sticking around for that. i could care less what penalty they give me

[ouTJumped]

That's fine, and if you're want to do that, you should pay the penalty for doing it. If another team dominates you, then you know what, they dominate you. That's part of life, sometimes you're going to go up against a good team of players, and sometimes you will go up against a team of bad players, and sometimes you'll be on the team of good players.

 

If you want to bail, keep the exit button there for those that still want to. But penalize them for ruining it for the rest of the group.

 

If you can't handle being on a bad team or losing, DON'T PVP.

 

So because you are getting relentlessly farmed and having 0 fun, you should be punished?

 

REALLY?

[savionen]

That's fine, and if you're want to do that, you should pay the penalty for doing it. If another team dominates you, then you know what, they dominate you. That's part of life, sometimes you're going to go up against a good team of players, and sometimes you will go up against a team of bad players, and sometimes you'll be on the team of good players.

 

If you want to bail, keep the exit button there for those that still want to. But penalize them for ruining it for the rest of the group.

 

If you can't handle being on a bad team or losing, DON'T PVP.

 

And with that mentality they'll just afk... ruining it for their own team while STILL getting rewards.

[Vydor_HC]

This game has far too many issues for a debuff to be effective or even fair. They said they are addressing the situation in 1.2, so I guess they have read these threads and come up with a plan on how to fix it. What they give us as a result will say a lot to me about whether or not BW knows what it's doing with PvP in the game.

[OatsRawr]

How about instead of a kick option, you have a vote to forfeit as a team

 

If you see a 4-0 huttball or a 100-360 turrets, or a pug vs. full BM team, start the vote to forfeit and your team can end the game early. Stops people from feeling like they are wasting their time in a long match where they are being farmed/losing with no hope of a come back. Go ahead and put a penalty in for quitting as a single player with the option of team forfeit vote.

[ouTJumped]

How about instead of a kick option, you have a vote to forfeit as a team

 

If you see a 4-0 huttball or a 100-360 turrets, or a pug vs. full BM team, start the vote to forfeit and your team can end the game early. Stops people from feeling like they are wasting their time in a long match where they are being farmed/losing with no hope of a come back. Go ahead and put a penalty in for quitting as a single player with the option of team forfeit vote.

 

This isn't a terrible idea, but it would need to be a simple majority vote, or else you'd get that one ******e.

[Sathid]

oh Ive won many warzones without a healer. but not vs a premade.

 

its so pointless to even bother. go in and try to kill one of their healers only to have another healer turn and heal him. then two of his other buddies cc and rip you to shreds. you have no chance whatsoever. skills, gear, strategy, all utterly pointless in that scenario.

 

all you can do is die repeatedly, no thanks. im not sticking around for that. i could care less what penalty they give me

 

I told yah earlier in the thread ive been there and so have many of the 50's on Ajunta Pall before the 50's bracket,i recall one week i did WZ's for four hours a day for four days and still didnt get my weekly done,we were outgeared like crazy against the Imps,but we never quit,we actually laugthed and then we got better,we targeted healers etc first.

 

Now we win most of the matches,the server in the 50's bracket has see sawed for the Republic im assuming is that some Imps were full BM and have made alts,myself my Wz's i do is maybe 10 a week on my scoundrel,im playing some alts,you gotta be more patient,take your lumps and then kick some tail.

[admriker]

also winning should have its benefits, but losing is such a goose egg in terms of any gains that it borders on the painful, even when you making reasonable contribution to a game. You dont even get half the the commendations of the winning team.

 

But again i don't know that i see this debuff being instituted prior to the warzone ranking patch. The vast majority of games i see people leaving are blow outs, and most blow outs are battlemasters vs none/centurion. So i can't completely devalue that people might be more apt to stay if its more competitive.

 

oh please tell me they arent adding some stupid ranking system to the game ??? thats the last thing we need. we already cant get people to play warzones for a win because of the medal system

 

is there any detailed info on this ? Im already guessing it wont benefit us open world pvpers who prefer picking off players in places like Voss

[OatsRawr]

This isn't a terrible idea, but it would need to be a simple majority vote, or else you'd get that one ******e.

 

well of course, simple majority vote

[Sabbathius]

How about instead of a kick option, you have a vote to forfeit as a team

 

If you see a 4-0 huttball or a 100-360 turrets, or a pug vs. full BM team, start the vote to forfeit and your team can end the game early. Stops people from feeling like they are wasting their time in a long match where they are being farmed/losing with no hope of a come back. Go ahead and put a penalty in for quitting as a single player with the option of team forfeit vote.

 

Win Trading! Not just for Ilum any more!

 

You let us win, next round we let you win. Quick 30 second games! Woo! Everyone in BM gear by the end of the day.

[Pcolapat]

To fix the issue require the following for the match to count toward your daily/weekly.

 

• Complete the warzone
  
• Minimum three medals earned during the match
  
• Wins only count for extra valor/credits and do not count toward the daily/weekly.
  
• A twenty minute penalty for leaving a warzone
  
• Idle players who are not engaged in PVP are removed from the wz after one minute unless they are in range of a PVP objective (Guarding)
  

[OatsRawr]

Win Trading! Not just for Ilum any more!

 

You let us win, next round we let you win. Quick 30 second games! Woo! Everyone in BM gear by the end of the day.

 

YA TOTALLY! we let you win! and then, oh **** we didnt get you guys cuz its RANDOM games. Well that just ****ed your day up didnt it =p

[ouTJumped]

Win Trading! Not just for Ilum any more!

 

You let us win, next round we let you win. Quick 30 second games! Woo! Everyone in BM gear by the end of the day.

 

If the alternative is a punishment, it isn't much worse, because same thing will end up happening anyway.

[Tierce]

That's fine, and if you're want to do that, you should pay the penalty for doing it. If another team dominates you, then you know what, they dominate you. That's part of life, sometimes you're going to go up against a good team of players, and sometimes you will go up against a team of bad players, and sometimes you'll be on the team of good players.

 

If you want to bail, keep the exit button there for those that still want to. But penalize them for ruining it for the rest of the group.

 

If you can't handle being on a bad team or losing, DON'T PVP.

 

How does someone ruin a game for the rest of the team when all of you are already getting facerolled?

[Sathid]

To fix the issue require the following for the match to count toward your daily/weekly.

 

• Complete the warzone
  
• Minimum three medals earned during the match
  
• Wins only count for extra valor/credits and do not count toward the daily/weekly.
  
• A twenty minute penalty for leaving a warzone
  
• Idle players who are not engaged in PVP are removed from the wz after one minute unless they are in range of a PVP objective (Guarding)
  

 

Kool.