Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[ConradLionhart]

Mount and Blade is an excellent example.

 

An indy game with the best melee combat system around.

 

And it's sold loads for a fairly simple and unhyped game.

 

 

But then imagine Mount and Blade with all it had AND a serious RPG back end (or a MMORPG back end). Nirvana. :eek

 

I wanted that, but the devs never expanded on their sandbox world which has great potential.

 

On that note, does anyone know of a game similar to Mount & Blade but is more polished? It can be medieval or sci-fi themed.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

That's the thing though a "sand box" game doesn't have to be like EvE (never mind a Hybrid Theme-sand-park-box game ).

 

It's like saying all cars (Themeparks) are the same. When although they might be different from motorbikes (Sandboxes) they are at least as different from each other in one extreme to the other. Then somewhere in-between Car and Motorbikes even pretty much meet.

 

You can have a casual "sandbox" game (like Minecraft) and you can have a massively hardcore one (like EvE), you can have casual and hardcore "themepark" games too.

 

 

 

But in SWTORs case...... the current game with a great RvR zone bolted on (think with a

SW Skin! ) and a

or

type space expansion........ how could that NOT be better than the current game?

 

Interesting. Though odd that is has nothing to with my post. I was just pointing out that Eve is designed to be boring because players like it.

 

 

I have no idea how that is possible.

[Goretzu]

I wanted that, but the devs never expanded on their sandbox world which has great potential.

 

On that note, does anyone know of a game similar to Mount & Blade but is more polished? It can be medieval or sci-fi themed.

 

I don't think they really had the money, the game was developed on pocket money by todays standards.

 

Mount and Blade Warband is a decent enhancment over M&B orginal (if you haven't got that and they have also done a couple of offical expansion packs now - as well as all the fan based ones - there's a nice MMO fan one where you can level up and get better gear through persistant online play).

 

 

 

Interesting. Though odd that is has nothing to with my post. I was just pointing out that Eve is designed to be boring because players like it.

 

 

I have no idea how that is possible.

 

Well there's something to be said for "boring" if it is done well, but he's not really saying boring so much as people like to do things that may be deemed boring for tha reward at the end (a lot of games work on this principle not just MMORPGs, even some of the earliest like Elite). And you never know what people find relaxing either, pretty much anything someone finds relaxing someone else finds boring, and vice versa.

 

A lot of the success for the "levelling" model employed by EQ1 and then most famously WoW (and now SWTOR) was said to be down to the same thing really (grind out 1000 mobs get a ding! in Everquest).

 

But what I mean is because EvE is like that doesn't mean Space Sandbox Game 2 has to be like that too, although it doens't have to be NOT like that either.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Goretzu

[Manio]

I prefer sandbox games.The freedom of do whatever you like. Examples are Fallout and Elder Scroll games.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Eve Online is boring.

 

Less "boring" than Dailies, most certainly...

I coudn´t force myself to play the TOR lvl50 Dailies more than three times.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[ConradLionhart]

I prefer sandbox games.The freedom of do whatever you like. Examples are Fallout and Elder Scroll games.

 

Those aren't sandbox. They are RPGs with open world and non-linear exploration. They are closer to themepark.

[Goretzu]

Those aren't sandbox. They are RPGs with open world and non-linear exploration. They are closer to themepark.

 

So was SWG then.

[ZackAlklazaris]

There is absolutely no feeling of exploration what-so-ever in a "theme park" type of map. Truthfully they irritate me, I prefer sandbox style maps. They make everything appear so much bigger and when you do find something (Lore, rare npc, item, etc) it gives you a moment of pride. I do understand its more difficult to find quests, but SWtOR already has that covered by quests leading to other quests.

 

I like this game. Rift may be in the near future, but for now I am happy with this. Sigh, I hate saying this (because it makes me sound like a man whose obsessed with 80s classic rock... yeah you know the type) but I do think SWG did some things that just spoiled the hell out of me.

[terminova]

nono not a wow clone but a wow low cost budget

 

but on all notes here BW needs to start acting NOW come on BW listen to the community and dont say you are because your not ok you pulled DA3 Dev team to help with this game to fix bugs and add content insted of doing that why not just change the game to sandbox/theme park u do that and that will MAKE alot of money of it because this is what we want and this is the next-gen mmo

 

The problem isn't that Bioware isn't listening to the players (they are) the problem is the players are not listening to Bioware and/or don't like the timeline Bioware has laid out or believe Bioware doesn't know anything about anything including what they are doing and that they, the player's, could do better.

 

If you want something you consider next-gen, go develop it.

[Goretzu]

The problem isn't that Bioware isn't listening to the players (they are) the problem is the players are not listening to Bioware and/or don't like the timeline Bioware has laid out or believe Bioware doesn't know anything about anything including what they are doing and that they, the player's, could do better.

 

If you want something you consider next-gen, go develop it.

 

Because it's that easy.

 

If you don't like fossil fuel cars, go develop a cold fusion one! (and why not make it fly and do your washing up while your at it!)

 

The reality is Bioware took a very, very narrow and static path with SWTOR, and it's not holding people. Adding features that would widen SWTORs depth and breadth can only be a good thing.

[Jonnara]

Because it's that easy.

 

If you don't like fossil fuel cars, go develop a cold fusion one! (and why not make it fly and do your washing up while your at it!)

 

The reality is Bioware took a very, very narrow and static path with SWTOR, and it's not holding people. Adding features that would widen SWTORs depth and breadth can only be a good thing.

 

I don't think that is at all possible, Bioware's main strength is every game they have developed has been a linear story driven experience.

 

I think the OP is asking the wrong question here, anyone who ever played a bioware game knows what style of game they make.

The information on swtor features has been given out to the public on beta weekends and developer dispatches.

 

I think the real question should be "If you like sandbox MMO, than why are you playing this game at all?"

[Goretzu]

 

I think the real question should be "If you like sandbox MMO, than why are you playing this game at all?"

 

Well the question is more; "If you like anything but the most static themepark MMORPG in MMORPG history, then why are you playing this game?"

 

The answer is, of course, in the 400,000 subs lost in the last 3 months and that of the 2.4+m SWTOR sales have only generated 1.3m subs at the moment (and falling).

 

 

Another question would be:

 

"Why does SWTOR currently have no RvR as advertised?"

 

Another would be:

 

"How can SWTOR hold players and even gain some back?"

 

 

The answer to both is adding sandy features and moving to a more Hybrid model.

 

 

 

 

Unless, of course, you're just saying that you think everyone that isn't 100% satisfied should just quit SWTOR, which is fair enough if that's your opinion, but it's neither progressive nor helpful (and I can't imagine it's what Bioware EA would want ).

Edited May 11, 2012 by Goretzu

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Well these are very serious tech requests here, and I believe implementing these would only work at the very core of the game, it´s a lot more than just some number crunching or pushing the right button. I can´t imagine how this could work now that the game is already out. If they completely change server technology, this could as well mean taking the game offline for weeks or longer. Anyway it won´t be a simple "server merge patch" we can expect anytime soon.

[Jonnara]

Unless, of course, you're just saying that you think everyone that isn't 100% satisfied should just quit SWTOR, which is fair enough if that's your opinion, but it's neither progressive nor helpful (and I can't imagine it's what Bioware EA would want ).

 

I think you missed my point, anybody complaining about the lack of sandbox features in this game should have know all that in advance before purchase and subscribing to this game.

 

Complaining you want to get a mix of the two from a development company that has no experience in sandbox game development and who has a proven track record with linear theme park games is like asking us the gamers to develop the sandbox parts for this game.

 

To give you an example of bioware stuffing up on things they have no experience with -

1/ Public test realm character copy.

2/ The Asian pacific character transfer.

3/ world pvp (Ilum).

 

I rest my case.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Jonnara

[macumba]

Anyone that designs a game to be either is being daft IMO.

 

And decent game should be both.

 

^this is so true.

 

sandbox only actually does not even work well, because no developer in the world can create rides as fast as they are consumed. sandbox elements would fit perfectly in between content updates.

[Goretzu]

I think you missed my point, anybody complaining about the lack of sandbox features in this game should have know all that in advance before purchase and subscribing to this game.

 

Complaining you want to get a mix of the two from a development company that has no experience in sandbox game development and who has a proven track record with linear theme park games is like asking us the gamers to develop the sandbox parts for this game.

 

To give you an example of bioware stuffing up on things they have no experience with -

1/ Public test realm character copy.

2/ The Asian pacific character transfer.

3/ world pvp (Ilum).

 

I rest my case.

 

Bioware have no experience in MMORPGs at all (if you discount running Warhammer Online - and the absorbed Mythic devs), so does that mean everyone should quit if anything isn't right?

 

You're saying that Bioware are "incapable" of (for example) RvR and that anyone that hopes to ever have RvR in SWTOR should just quit?

 

Rather than suggest improvements and try to get it back in the game in a viable way.

 

Sorry, I just don't agree with that (and again I doubt Bioware EA do either).

Edited May 11, 2012 by Goretzu

[Suzina]

i vote for more sand

[Jonnara]

Bioware have no experience in MMORPGs at all (if you discount running Warhammer Online - and the absorbed Mythic devs), so does that mean everyone should quit if anything isn't right?

 

You're saying that Bioware are "incapable" of (for example) RvR and that anyone that hopes to ever have RvR in SWTOR should just quit?

 

Rather than suggest improvements and try to get it back in the game in a viable way.

 

Sorry, I just don't agree with that (and again I doubt Bioware EA do either).

 

Bingo! you got my point. This is an attempt at mmorpg but its really Kotor3.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Bingo! you got my point. This is an attempt at mmorpg but its really Kotor3.

 

It's KoTOR 3 NOW.

 

With time, support and patience, it will eventually evolve into a better MMO. And success or fail, Bioware learns alot from it and can use the experience to perfect their next MMO, (hopefully) Mass Effect Online.

 

Though I think it should be called Mass Effect Universe. Sounds cooler.

[Blackardin]

Anyone that designs a game to be either is being daft IMO.

 

And decent game should be both.

 

I need a moment. I'm rather giddy about the fact that I've read a post here that actually presents something of intelectual value rather then conjecture. ;p

 

Ok, agree with this. A mix of both. I'm a big fan of the current leveling system, but I also see it as restrictive to others. Theme part type games, even though this is not an MMO, but a MMORPG are both expensive, long in development, and restrictive. Sandbox games are, for lack of a better word, boring for those that seek goals and objectives.

 

What I see for the future is a combination, perhaps at different times. To me, it makes sense for a gaming company to seek to minimize expense, development time, while maximizing prospective patrons. Stronger on theme part, lighter on sand box, but certainly a combination.

 

Initially, a daunting task for sure, but what revolutionary idea is not.

[Blackardin]

It's KoTOR 3 NOW.

 

With time, support and patience, it will eventually evolve into a better MMO. And success or fail, Bioware learns alot from it and can use the experience to perfect their next MMO, (hopefully) Mass Effect Online.

 

Though I think it should be called Mass Effect Universe. Sounds cooler.

 

This is what people tend to forget. Call it what you will at this point in time. Happy with it or not, it will be a very different, far more advanced game in a year then it is now. Nothing makes me shake my head more then those that insist it is a failure three months into the launch of a game with an average life expectancy of 7 to 10 years.

 

I think that if more people would just **** and enjoy the content there is now rather then attempt to re-write the entity of the game from an armchair perspective they would have far less stress in their lives. I know this sounds insane, but try to imagine a life where one would log in, play the game, have fun, log out as an escape from real life stress.

 

Crazy....

[Darth_Moonshadow]

I need a moment. I'm rather giddy about the fact that I've read a post here that actually presents something of intelectual value rather then conjecture. ;p

 

Ok, agree with this. A mix of both. I'm a big fan of the current leveling system, but I also see it as restrictive to others. Theme part type games, even though this is not an MMO, but a MMORPG are both expensive, long in development, and restrictive. Sandbox games are, for lack of a better word, boring for those that seek goals and objectives.

 

What I see for the future is a combination, perhaps at different times. To me, it makes sense for a gaming company to seek to minimize expense, development time, while maximizing prospective patrons. Stronger on theme part, lighter on sand box, but certainly a combination.

 

Initially, a daunting task for sure, but what revolutionary idea is not.

 

Indeed. That's the reason I remind people that this is a themepark.

 

Oh yes, everyone! I'm not saying that to be a jerk! There is a real reason behind it!

 

When people mention they want sandbox features, usually they are asking too big. They want this game to be one massive sandbox that just so happens to have one themepark element. They believe it to be a compromise, when in reality it's just a "Here, have some quests now shut up" cop out. That's not fair at all. At the same time, a few Themepark fans are saying the same in reverse, where the Themepark is massive and the sand box is a 10x10 hole in the ground in the children's area where stray cats poop in. That is not fair either. If we want a real hybrid, we have to go slowly, not cram all of one genre in at once and screw the other guys. We need to make a true compromise and have new content be both fun as sandbox, but focused as Themepark.

 

Example, some people want full sandbox player housing with cities being built and player controlled. While a fun feature, it's not useful in a themepark game. People would build cities and abandon them when new operations and warzones are released. The cities become empty and lifeless most of the time. Can't have that. But say we receive in a new content patch the Zeltron homeworld with their massive holo zone funland. Say you and a party of friends visit there and you guys want to do a little swoop racing. You go to the racing area and discover you can race on hundreds of custom race tracks, all made by players like you. You can even design your own race track with hazards, ramps, speed boosters, loops and other such things.

 

With that, it allows sandbox players to get their creative juices flowing, while serving a purpose to the themeparkers. They need something to do when they get bored of operations and warzones. That's why they ask for mini-games. It gives them something goal oriented to do. By combining the sandbox building with the mini-game playing aspects, both sets of players get what they want.

 

If we are going to add sandbox elements, they need to also serve a purpose. If we are adding more themepark rides, they will need to have more player input. The game should not be a full beach with one slide or a themepark with a hole full of sand. We need a themepark ON the beach.

 

We need this game to become the first ever BOARDWALK MMORPG

Edited May 11, 2012 by Darth_Moonshadow

[DND_Druid]

The fact is there are too many people chasing the next MMo for companies to change . You get a couple million people to pay 40 (insert currency of your choise) and then 10 (insert currency of your choise) for 6 months you have made your development costs and a profit. Keep a proportion of that player base include a few noobies who try it and your still make money.

 

Why would big companies invest in changing the cash cow with a gamble on what is mostly a harcore player enviroment. New players who never thought of playing on line games have been lured into gaming by simple theme park games like this one which leaves old school gamers who like something more challenging in the wide blue yonder or EVE.

 

To change this you would need to change the mind set of the new gamer and I dont think that is going to happen. New gamers and I meen gamers from the last 10 years here , dont like having thier game time infringed by other players or indeed wroking anything out . Not my gameplay this theme park stuff but this was SW and worth a try.

[Goretzu]

Bingo! you got my point. This is an attempt at mmorpg but its really Kotor3.

 

Fair enough. But again I still disagree that is all it can be.

[mattgyver]

Bioware needs our input on this. It's not a matter of sit back and shut up.

 

I'm sure that would be pleasant, but it wouldn't help to make this game do better.

 

Bioware needs input on how to make the game have more longevity for certain segments of the player base. A previous poster said that the players need to just be quiet and enjoy the existing content. If the existing content was cutting it then there wouldn't be a thread like this one, the 10 like it that preceded it, or the 20 that preceded that. People do like to complain, but feedback is different--and should not be confused with complaining.