Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Htoob]

SWG didnt fail simply because it was a sandbox, it was other non sandbox related issues that caused players to unsub, as in bugs and imbalances. Many of the same problems that these themepark mmo's also suffer. So to claim that because SWG failed, then therefore all sandbox mmo's must be failures as well, is incorrect.

 

Through all the problems that SWG had, it did have a healthy population for a number of years and had an 8.5 year run. With the way swtor is turning out, it will be VERY hard pressed to match SWG's run. Games like AoC, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, to name a few, all had rapidly dropping populations early after the games launch. Those games were reduced to a handful of servers less than a year after they launched. SWG lasted with 25 servers for roughly 6 years before half of them were closed due to dropping populations. Not bad considering the drastic changes that the game went through, more than once even.

 

I think it's safe to say that the sandbox aspect of SWG is what saved that game and kept it going all those years. If a sandbox mmo can still survive changes like the Combat Upgrade, and the massive nerf that was the NGE, then what could sandbox features do for a game like swtor? Why can't they put all the themepark rides inside a giant sandbox?

 

I think if mmo's are to survive, they need to change from the current models we see atm. Sandbox world, with themepark rides throughout, is something along the lines of where mmo's need to go. Sandbox/themepark hybrid mmo would be cool to see someday, here's hoping.

 

It's funny, cause when I was a kid, I'd go to the park and jump on each ride a few times, then lose interest. But the sandbox in my own backyard, I'd play in it every day for hours...

[Esquire]

less then 1 million in todays market is a niche game sorry. The market is much much bigger then it once was as for the other games. If you add up the population of every Sandbox MMO out now I doubt it would even reach 1 million.

 

1. EvE 300k is incredibly small sorry but thats how it is. EvE is a great game but it will never reach a wide audience.

 

 

 

2. SWG - I strongly recomed you read this article FROM A SWG DEVELOPER http://rubenfield.com/?p=86 It had a huge launch but people left incredbily fast. By the time they went to the CU and NGE they were already losing subs at a rate of 10k a month and where down to 160k subs. That is a HUGE failure.

 

3. UO yeah at it's peak it had 220k which is nice since it cost nothing to make but it was still a niche market. It hasn't had anywhere near 220k for years now the only reason it's still running is because it costs almost nothing to keep it up.

 

 

Now I do believe that the answer lies in between Themepark and Sandbox. You need elements of both for long term success but it's not something you have at launch it something you grow and Bioware seems to be heading that direction with Guild Capital ships and adding stuff to your ship but it's going to take time.

 

After playing GW2 this weekend I can safely say that TOR isn't in any danger of dying any time soon.

 

Eve is ONLY small when compared to WoW, that's it. By STO and/or AoC standards, Cryptic and Funcom only wish they had 300K. BTW, STO did sell about a mil boxes but that really messed up on Cryptic real fast.

 

Not only do I still have the Rubenfield blog copy/paisted in this computer, I have the origninal with all the obsenaties, before SOE appearently called him and told him to take out some info and clean it up. Only thing I can see happening was he was very drunk when he typed out the original. Rubenfiled says it was leaching 10K subs per/month. But that wasn't from launch. If everyone would remember correctly, CU happened 6 months before the NGE. The playerbase was a bit "dismayed" shall we say, over the fact that CURB was taken out of development plans and CU was brought in. There's the leaching of subs. EVERY time there was a re-design of SWG it cost subs, CU, NGE, and C6CD all three.

 

Yep, the new shiney hurt UO but there just wasn't that many of us around at that time either. I would venture to say that the 3 new shineys that come out this year will hurt TOR as well. Not kill it, but hurt it. Maybe that's some of the reasoning for handing out 30 free days at the launch of 1 of them nice, new, shineys.

 

I happen to /agree with you 150% that the answer is probably somewhere in between thempark and sandbox with elements of both. It gets all concerned. Altho they pretty much already have the thempark aspects. Even in SWG almost EVERYONE used the housing for storage but a boat load of people never used the deco feature. Even if sandbox is added and used via BW Austin, that doesn't mean everyone has to partake. The thing I actualy worry about is can the engine handle 1400 items in a musti bunker like mine on SWG, even if it was instanced. Looking at the engine problems already in game, I'd almost have to say no. Just the same as some may like TOR PVP but not everyone is going to do that either. The hardcore PVPers may not ever run a nightmare mode operation either. Just because it's there does not mean you have to use it. Just the choice is always nice and attacts more players than if the choice wasn't there.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

SWG didnt fail simply because it was a sandbox, it was other non sandbox related issues that caused players to unsub, as in bugs and imbalances. Many of the same problems that these themepark mmo's also suffer. So to claim that because SWG failed, then therefore all sandbox mmo's must be failures as well, is incorrect.

 

Through all the problems that SWG had, it did have a healthy population for a number of years and had an 8.5 year run. With the way swtor is turning out, it will be VERY hard pressed to match SWG's run. Games like AoC, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, to name a few, all had rapidly dropping populations early after the games launch. Those games were reduced to a handful of servers less than a year after they launched. SWG lasted with 25 servers for roughly 6 years before half of them were closed due to dropping populations. Not bad considering the drastic changes that the game went through, more than once even.

 

I think it's safe to say that the sandbox aspect of SWG is what saved that game and kept it going all those years. If a sandbox mmo can still survive changes like the Combat Upgrade, and the massive nerf that was the NGE, then what could sandbox features do for a game like swtor? Why can't they put all the themepark rides inside a giant sandbox?

I think if mmo's are to survive, they need to change from the current models we see atm. Sandbox world, with themepark rides throughout, is something along the lines of where mmo's need to go. Sandbox/themepark hybrid mmo would be cool to see someday, here's hoping.

 

It's funny, cause when I was a kid, I'd go to the park and jump on each ride a few times, then lose interest. But the sandbox in my own backyard, I'd play in it every day for hours...

 

 

great analysis, I see it exactly the same way, the sandbox aspect was the great part of it and saved the game for such a long time. Also never went F2P.

At the moment there is not a single MMO which managed to be a hybrid sandbox with themepark rides (warzones, FP, class stories,...) but the first which will offer this could be a blockbuster game.

[Esquire]

Just cover a few things here

 

UO was not first, it was 7th to be exact.

SWG was 2nd largest for 1 month, yup 1 month. Initial release and then 70% canceled in the first month. SWG was never the monster hit you fans like to make it out to be. Anyone that played it knows this to be true. Just a matter of them admitting it.

Yes Arch Age could be a massive surprise hit. And I could win 50 million dollars on next weeks 30 million dollar lotto draw. Both have about the same chance of happening. When you have a small budget and use a mechanic known to be a nitch play style, smart money says its a small nitch game at best.

Eve, see above for niche game, out how many years and still not very big at all.

 

Btw, UO was only popular when it was the new thing on the block and its only competition was the old turn based style (and the meridian 59 engine from SSI Ravenloft series) games that started the MMORPG genre. Soon as EQ opened, UO went in the crapper literally and was dead dead dead and empty. So UO was #1 when it had no real competition. Not exactly what I vcall a glowing reveiw.

 

Do I think this game will be around in 13 years? Not a chance unless EAoware starts making a MMO. Im not sticking up for the massively single player game EAoware has made here. But adding to their screw up by going sandbox (when at least 70% of those posting about sandbox in this and other threads have no clue what sandbox is beyond a internet fan term they hooked onto) doesnt fix this game, in fact adding sandbox to this game would bury it over night because it was never designed or developed to utilize sandbox concepts.

 

As for the rabid sandbox fanbase. Yes that 100 people are very rabid. No doubt about it. And their numbers are also so small they simply can not support a AAA MMORPG in this day and age.

 

TOR is not a good Themepark MMORPG at this moment. Thats on EAoware 100%. But adding failed and unpopular design features to the already existing problems doesnt help anyone. Not the players, not the developers, not the investors. EAoware went Themepark but forgot to put the social interaction community in game. So now they have this theme park MMO with no heart and soul. Thats what then need to fix. Not change design approach as others have suggested.

 

Sandbox design will have its day when technology meets up with current sci fi concepts like ST holosuits, Centari (the BSG spin off) mind MMO where you hook into a fully developed sandbox world and take part in there, and other sci fi concepts. Right now we limited to look ing at ascreen and playing a game inside the parameters of the developers and for that, Sandbox will never rule. Because its still to limited to be true sandbox.

 

OK, your counting MUDS as well. No problem.

 

As with other posters, I think you got your launch subs a little out of wack. You bet there were several, me probably included, that certainly threatened an unsub due to the fact they couldn't even keep the servers up, but very few actualy made the plunge. SWG even picked up a few fresh faces at the launch of JTL. It is generaly known that SWG kept most (key word there is most) of it's original subs until CU. That started the downfall, which NGE iced the cake, and C6CD knocked what was left off the table and to the floor. (before C6CD, Smed released that SWG had 100K subs even)

 

I would imagine that your "100" players for sandbox is as complete as your 70% left at launch of SWG. I know about cynical, no problem there either.

 

I happen to /agree with your estimation of TOR in it current form. The only way BW can maintain is very well done, and very good development. And to get this engine working as any other MMO should and mostly does run. To be honest, Cyptic's engine seems to do a better job of keeping up. I'd even venture to say that this game is far in need of a Combat Upgrade itself. Some profs are just broken almost beyond the band-aid repair we've seen. The socal stuff is what alot of people are calling "sandbox" aspects which sandbox does excel at. I don't believe that anyone is asking for a complete CHANGE in design approach, just a widening of the design approach may be the better answer. We'll both see what they actualy do.

 

Either way, I'm a month to month sub for ANY game now. SWG and STO taught me that one. I'll not get caught again with a year sub nor a lifetime.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Esquire

[DiabloDoom]

Themeparks are for cry baby non gamers. I still remember when a gamer was considered a person who devoted their gaming experience to either RPG or strategy, now all these console non gamers have flooded the MMO market and ruined it. And to whoever said that sandbox is for the niche market, well let me just say that the Legend of Mir was quite sandboxy in terms of PK and community (although the armour was linear until gems and orbs became available), an example would be the queue system for bosses that the players had designed and used for years on my server. And niche? The game claims to of had over 120,000,000 players worldwide since it's release.

 

I really prefer sandbox games, last good one I played was Mortal Online. I generally find that sandbox games have that addictive element to them. Games like this I can just switch off like I would a normal console if I owned one

 

I like this game though, it isn't challenging so it suits me for the moment.

[Goretzu]

UO was not first, it was 7th to be exact.

 

It was the first modern MMORPG in the sense that most would recognise.

 

SWG was 2nd largest for 1 month, yup 1 month. Initial release and then 70% canceled in the first month.

They held 300,000 sub for a long time (at least 1.5 years), they had a decent fall off intially as most every MMORPG, but they only sold 1,000,000 copys by August 2005.

 

So there is NO WAY there was a 70% cancellation in the first month. It's just not possible given the sub numbers and sales numbers.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

It was the first modern MMORPG in the sense that most would recognise.

 

They held 300,000 sub for a long time (at least 1.5 years), they had a decent fall off intially as most every MMORPG, but they only sold 1,000,000 copys by August 2005.

 

So there is NO WAY there was a 70% cancellation in the first month. It's just not possible given the sub numbers and sales numbers.

 

Exactly. Also it´s total BS if people continue to blame the sandbox concept for the decline in SWG subs, it was the NGE which did that, which had nothing to do with "sandbox features". In fact the NGE made SWG less sandbox like, and more like WoW, which ruined the game -> The WoW concept makes WoWclone games fail, not sandboxes.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[jarjarloves]

It was the first modern MMORPG in the sense that most would recognise.

 

 

They held 300,000 sub for a long time (at least 1.5 years), they had a decent fall off intially as most every MMORPG, but they only sold 1,000,000 copys by August 2005.

 

So there is NO WAY there was a 70% cancellation in the first month. It's just not possible given the sub numbers and sales numbers.

 

guess again http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

[Goretzu]

guess again http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

 

Even with 200,000 subs it's still the 3rd biggest MMORPG at the time, and it's still nothing like a 70% loss of subs in the first month (given they didn't hit 1,000,000 box sales till Aug 2005).

 

So guess what again exactly?

 

 

 

(in fact looking at what he was actually saying, he seems to be saying SWG had 200,000 ish by the time WoW was out [ so it's 2+ years after release by that point, possibly 3-4 years] which would be about right from an initial ~300,000 for 1.5 years...... so I really don't see your point or what there is to guess again about?!?!?)

Edited April 29, 2012 by Goretzu

[Shingara]

I dont understand the themepark or die people, its not like having a bit of sandbox in a themepark is a bad thing, if lets say swtor puts in a bit of sandbox and gets 200k people who like sandbox and they have something todo in swtor how is that a bad thing. Someone answer me that cos people who dont want it wouldnt be forced to do it.

 

If we are still at 1.7 and it adds 200k thats 1.9 for total revanue, that gets put into all development.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Shingara

[Goretzu]

I dont understand the themepark or die people, its not like having a bit of sandbox in a themepark is a bad thing, if lets say swtor puts in a bit of themepark and gets 200k people who like themeparks and they have something todo in swtor how is that a bad thing. Someone answer me that cos people who dont want it wouldnt be forced to do it.

 

Hehe, yep I've never seen an MMORPG where any improvement to the game was seen as a heretical idea to be burned at the stake.

 

Ironically many of the great improvement that have already been added have had this treatment - you wouldn't be enjoying UI improvements nor quick travel improvements to name if few if the "statics" of the forum had their way!

 

Progressive thought on SWTOR isn't liked much by a vocal minority around these parts..... despite most to the changes being good or better.

 

Fortunately Bioware seem to take note of good ideas anyway!

[Shingara]

Hehe, yep I've never seen an MMORPG where any improvement to the game was seen as a heretical idea to be burned at the stake.

 

Ironically many of the great improvement that have already been added have had this treatment - you wouldn't be enjoying UI improvements nor quick travel improvements to name if few if the "statics" of the forum had their way!

 

Progressive thought on SWTOR isn't liked much by a vocal minority around these parts..... despite most to the changes being good or better.

 

Fortunately Bioware seem to take note of good ideas anyway!

 

Im actualy quite happy with bioware, they arnt doing the majority who shouts the most must get done 1st trick like another mmo i could name. They are doing something for everyone and the majority of complaints i see are infact why isnt this like another brand mmo cos i want to play that on here.

 

If they dropped 1 or 2 full sandbox planets or extended the capital worlds to give a sandbox area for housing etc people who didnt want to use it wouldnt have to. But you know what, the crazy fact is they would.

 

If they could have customized guild halls, player housing etc where they could stamp there identity on to show how good they are or have extra storage or personal space you know for damn jiggidy everyone would use it.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Sandbox would mean putting far more players into the same cross server planet instance, probably 1000+ players therefore needing much bigger planets, much more environments and simply more realism and dynamic cycles on planets, like weather, NPCs acting different according to day/nighttime. People are complaining about how static and timefrozen the planets are, and how ridiculous it is to have 10 players on a whole planet, so making the planet concepts sandboxy is the only way out of low planet population and the static dead feeling of the worlds. Also there is a need for open world housing areas and guild cities.

 

The kind of little timefrozen planets we have right now are simply much less work, but I guess there is more to expect from a game based on the SW IP.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Jonoku]

Theres no polls anymore? , sandbox all the way.

[river]

I love what biowre has done, they created a great foundation for a game that has a lot of potential. at the moment the game has a lot of the features required in making the leveling process fun and painless, the next step is to do the same for endgame. they need to add more sandbox elements to the current game and future expansions. all they have to do is open up the maps and increase the perimeter so that that those zones can be vast, interactive and designated for building player cities and bases ala SWG. being able to stop the flow of story and just step back into the world so you can craft and socialize and build communities in these open areas, sort of like how ilum has a somewhat large space designated to pvp. this game has a lot of deapth but no breadth and im feeling kinda boxed-in limited and confined. again a lot of potential and i hope that bioware listens to the community

[river]

Sandbox would mean putting far more players into the same cross server planet instance, probably 1000+ players therefore needing much bigger planets, much more environments and simply more realism and dynamic cycles on planets, like weather, NPCs acting different according to day/nighttime. People are complaining about how static and timefrozen the planets are, and how ridiculous it is to have 10 players on a whole planet, so making the planet concepts sandboxy is the only way out of low planet population and the static dead feeling of the worlds. Also there is a need for open world housing areas and guild cities.

 

The kind of little timefrozen planets we have right now are simply much less work, but I guess there is more to expect from a game based on the SW IP.

 

i agree, i always feel that the devs took the path of least resistance with regard to the production of the game, i wish more love was put in to the gameplay features .... but its not too late

[Shingara]

I think another thing that has to be remembered. The main difference between sandbox and themepark is that themepark is concurrent development, once whats created is completed new content has to be developed.

 

Sandbox is do and forget development. Sandbox things are never completed as its used and adapted by the playerbase. Be it quest created like seen in the foundry on sto and other games, Customized housing, guildhalls and in this case ships is simply provide parts and options and leave it in the hands of the playerbase and see where they run with it.

 

So inherently sandbox is alot cheaper to develop and impliment and keep fresh then themepark is.

[totalstupidity]

Hybrids are the future.

[Aricus]

Just cover a few things here

 

UO was not first, it was 7th to be exact.

SWG was 2nd largest for 1 month, yup 1 month. Initial release and then 70% canceled in the first month. SWG was never the monster hit you fans like to make it out to be. Anyone that played it knows this to be true. Just a matter of them admitting it.

Yes Arch Age could be a massive surprise hit. And I could win 50 million dollars on next weeks 30 million dollar lotto draw. Both have about the same chance of happening. When you have a small budget and use a mechanic known to be a nitch play style, smart money says its a small nitch game at best.

Eve, see above for niche game, out how many years and still not very big at all.

 

Btw, UO was only popular when it was the new thing on the block and its only competition was the old turn based style (and the meridian 59 engine from SSI Ravenloft series) games that started the MMORPG genre. Soon as EQ opened, UO went in the crapper literally and was dead dead dead and empty. So UO was #1 when it had no real competition. Not exactly what I vcall a glowing reveiw.

 

Do I think this game will be around in 13 years? Not a chance unless EAoware starts making a MMO. Im not sticking up for the massively single player game EAoware has made here. But adding to their screw up by going sandbox (when at least 70% of those posting about sandbox in this and other threads have no clue what sandbox is beyond a internet fan term they hooked onto) doesnt fix this game, in fact adding sandbox to this game would bury it over night because it was never designed or developed to utilize sandbox concepts.

 

As for the rabid sandbox fanbase. Yes that 100 people are very rabid. No doubt about it. And their numbers are also so small they simply can not support a AAA MMORPG in this day and age.

 

TOR is not a good Themepark MMORPG at this moment. Thats on EAoware 100%. But adding failed and unpopular design features to the already existing problems doesnt help anyone. Not the players, not the developers, not the investors. EAoware went Themepark but forgot to put the social interaction community in game. So now they have this theme park MMO with no heart and soul. Thats what then need to fix. Not change design approach as others have suggested.

 

Sandbox design will have its day when technology meets up with current sci fi concepts like ST holosuits, Centari (the BSG spin off) mind MMO where you hook into a fully developed sandbox world and take part in there, and other sci fi concepts. Right now we limited to look ing at ascreen and playing a game inside the parameters of the developers and for that, Sandbox will never rule. Because its still to limited to be true sandbox.

 

UO was popular even when EQ released. What killed UO was Trammel and then the Age of Shadows as they released gear with stats.

[jarjarloves]

UO was popular even when EQ released. What killed UO was Trammel and then the Age of Shadows as they released gear with stats.

 

you do realize that Trammel increased its subs from 100k to 220k thats hardly killing the game.

[FeelFlow]

As the game is heavily story driven, it's bound to take a Theme Park approach. It would be a bit odd having the a heavily story driven approach 1-50 and then suddenly, it turns into a sandboxed game. But hopefully BW will eventually find some way of accommodating sandbox fans - I think that the story i.e. theme park is always going to be their main approach though.

[Aricus]

you do realize that Trammel increased its subs from 100k to 220k thats hardly killing the game.

 

You have a source for that?

[sovarus]

You can have part sandbox and part themepark with no trouble

 

Icarus studios managed it with Fallen earth where you could choose which skills you wanted and you had a solid crafting system.

 

SOE managed it with SWG where you maintained alot of the sanfbox elements from the old version of the game and had new enhancements to improve the story driven aspect.

 

it is more than possible to have both, its just a case of dev time and money to impliment things

[Talamars]

both.

 

What I'd enjoy most is a story driven MMO for leveling and even adventure later on, plus the possibility to go off and do my own thing, when the story ends or i'm bored with it.

 

sandbox without story is too much like real life, i already have to compete there, when i play a game i want to get away from that.

 

Themepark with only PVP as endgame is boring as well, i don't like PVP so if i cant do anything else i stop playing and paying.

 

I want to explore and be entertained.

 

It's a shame that so many games offer thousands of different ways to kill something, but almost none to explore, find something beautiful, mysterious or funny or create something nice or meaningful for the game-world.

[jarjarloves]

You have a source for that?

 

of course i do

 

http://rubenfield.com/?p=86

 

from a developer who worked on the game

 

It’s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the

positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel.

Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO’s numbers rose from

110k to 220k.