Rocco_ Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 my vanguard is currently 21 and i'm struggling to see why i would remain as one, ammo is far too annoying to keep an eye on with your CD, and buff/proc's the only thing i see that the vanguard has going for it is the ''ranged'' tanking which is total BS as you need to be within at least 10m (for the good agro holders. for my level as i see it) so my question is what does the vanguard have in terms of tanking that the shadow and the guardian does not have that would make people want me over the other 2? i want to keep it as equal as possible so all 3 tanks are of their defense trees...if possible, also mention if your argument is endgame or just in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElevenBfour Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You're only lvl21. My experience with my Sith Assassin (tank), and my Sith Juggernaut (tank), they didn't really feel like tanks until 25+. My Vanguard is lvl23 right now and I'm just getting to the point in the defense tree where it's starting to boost my Defense. I will admit though, it is a wierd style to play if you're not used to it. My first attempt at a Vanguard ended at lvl19. I also agree that our resource is a little hokey. Managing Force (assn) and Rage is much easier. I will say that tanking on my Jugg is not a walk in the park. I'll get carpal tunnel sooner or later having to tab-target so much to keep aggro on groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishcatch Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Uh... by far the best AoE threat, a Charge, AND a pull? There's a reason VGs are considered the strongest tanking class atm. All tanks suck at low levels... Level 21 content barely even requires a tank. It gets better as time goes on and you get your tools of the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_ Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 i gotta admit that storm and harpoon are awesome, but guard has leap and shadow has pull, when i say im 21 by that i mean i haven't tested stuff passed that level but i have researched heavily into the skills and trees (wishes storm wasn't a skill tree skill) my main objective come endgame is to be a ''top tank'' but pvp is a passion of mine as i see it vanguard is my fav to be my main tank, but was just curious to know what it has that the others do not...so far harpoon, storm and the trooper look are the only things that are pulling me to it.... im not 100% sure about this ranged tanking business tho...either im melee or im not. it gets confusing to have to look at the distance between me and my target with added ammo and buffs that i mentioned in the OP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhah Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 My main is a commando so i was already used to the ammo system before I tried vanguard out so it wasn't a problem for me but it takes some getting used to. Once you get used to it, you start to get a feel for when you are pushing too hard on your ammo and there is always Recharge Cells for when you use too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnyMessaround Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Idk why you're trying to range tank, Vans are melee tanks. Give it some more levels before you throw in the towel. It may just take a little while to pick up the nuances of the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_ Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 melee is 4m only, shadow has one or two 10&30m attacks but nothing to write home about, where as vanguards bread and butter attack is 10m (after stroke-strike)...im on my van now as i type this and i gotta be honest. there is a significant seperation between the 2 in terms of damage (and if its this noticeable at my level then i can only imagine the gap increasing) the only reason im sticking with vanguard for the time being is for the 2 gap closers. thus why im ASKING the question in OP. come endgame and iv had time to build up, no doubt i will have done all 3, but till then i like to know all the facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnyMessaround Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 If you don't like the term "melee" for Vans then "close-quarters" will work for you? I'm not sure what gap you're referring to either, do you mean damage of Vans compared to Shadows? I can't speak to that, my Shadow is still a wee teenager. All I know is that I have no problems (outside of bugs) w/ my Van (lvl 50). Properly spec'd and geared you should have no problems either end game or in general. Have you read this? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=158355 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daekarus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) The Vanguard has abilities that will enable aggro management at any range. The ranged abilities you have work just as well in close quarters. If you WANT to play a force user rather than a trooper, by all means go for it, but you will find they are less versatile and no better at straight tanking. And... ammo is hard? No. It's no more difficult than anything else... Edited February 16, 2012 by Daekarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkadis Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 The one thing that puts the Vanguard ahead of other tanks for me is the ability to kite tank. I have found that the slow effect from Ion cell works on elites and quite a few other "boss" style mobs. There have been many instances in heroics where I have been able to circle kite a slowed boss mob and have my companion or other players burn them down without literally taking any damage whatsoever. Without access to a spammable Hammershot equivalent, I don't think any other tank can do the same. It may not be "ranged tanking" in the sense of applying your full DPS/toolkit at range, but between Ion Cell and a ranged taunt more often than not it gets the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_ Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) arkadis is the first person to understand my post....i dont want to know what you think it is im doing wrong, i want hard facts what is it that vanguard have that the other 2 tank classes do not, what makes them special... the ability to kite is a good fact any others? Edited February 16, 2012 by Rocco_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
origional Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) my vanguard is currently 21 and i'm struggling to see why i would remain as one, ammo is far too annoying to keep an eye on with your CD, and buff/proc's the only thing i see that the vanguard has going for it is the ''ranged'' tanking which is total BS as you need to be within at least 10m (for the good agro holders. for my level as i see it) so my question is what does the vanguard have in terms of tanking that the shadow and the guardian does not have that would make people want me over the other 2? i want to keep it as equal as possible so all 3 tanks are of their defense trees...if possible, also mention if your argument is endgame or just in general It sounds to me as if you are relying too much on abilities that use up ammo and not enough on hammershot. I certainly wouldnt suggest going assault spec because you'll blow a fuse over ammo consumption. Use your taunts to hold aggro, not high damage abilities. Let dps worry about damage. You need to focus on keeping your ammo up for important abilities, like taunt, like interupt, like cc. Tanking at range is not BS at all. The only problem you have is not being able to interupt from range. Sometimes thats a problem, some times its not. Different tactics for different situations. In some situation tanking from range is a huge advantage over tanking at melee range because you have a better view of whats going on around you. I've tanked melee based champions at range without the aid of dps to burn them down and won, why, because if they cant hit you, they cant hurt you. The only time I have problems holding aggro is with lots of mobs and healers screaming about being attacked. Not much you can do about this except aggro the stronger mobs and get dps to kick crap out the weaker ones first. I dont play a guardian so I can't compare specificaly, but i've played along side guardians and they dont seem to have any particular advantage or disadvantage when compared to Vanguards. Maybe they have a bit better cc, ours stinks. Edited February 17, 2012 by origional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Roll Guardian if you want to know the meaning of pain. My PT feels like a much more well-rounded tank and PvP character overall. Guardian tank looks like a raidboss MT monkey and a stun\guard-bot for PvP. Aggro-wise (single target-only, mind you), he started to shine only when he broke past 1300-ish unbuffed strength in PvE, and started kicking major behind in PvP at around 500 Expertise. PT, on the other hand, felt a lot smoother during both, levelling and gearing. Edited February 17, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machr Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I also find that being able to pick up small adds while tanking elites is quite a big deal. Granted, it won't make the difference between a wipe or win. However, with the amount of dps out there that just go strait for the elites and ignore the normal mobs, being able to just hammershot them without having to run up to them makes my healers life alot easier atleast And the kiting ability is idd a huge pro for VGs. Haven't done any OPs yet, but in HM FPs, there are several situations where this comes in handy. Not sure about Guardians, but Shadows atleast don't have a ranged aoe taunt like we do. This is imo definitely a decent trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faolon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Best AoE threat Easier initial threat gain Grapple Storm Better tanking stats in the tree than the others Not penalized in damage for being a tank Go ahead and play another tank if you're so convinced Vanguards are a bad tank. You'll be back and with a bit more appreciation for this class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daiddu Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 don't play the other classes, so can't coment. you will probably find few that have leveled all tanks to 50 and can give good 1st hand knowledge. I can say that vanguard is a great char to play. the others may be better, but I fair pretty well in warfronts and enjoy the mix of melee and range. you get mixed response because your post comes across as complaining about vanguard. We have enough of those worthless threads on the boards. If you want to add value, don't ask loaded questions, like "why does x suck so bad?" I suggest going to the other tank boards and read what they like about their class. That may be a challenge as so few post constructively, but mostly whine about trivial things... Good luck and my two cents is that vanguard is a good/fun tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ururururu Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 plus - pull - best aoe threat - great in pvp or 1v1 - variable range (short, medium, long) minus - animations - ammo mechanic .. though personally I prefer it to rage/focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va_wanderer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Idk why you're trying to range tank, Vans are melee tanks. Give it some more levels before you throw in the towel. It may just take a little while to pick up the nuances of the class. You can "range tank" as a Vanguard, but it's not "sit there and soak up damage.". It's about kiting a mob/mobs while keeping your threat high so everyone else can unload on your target and avoiding fire as much as possible, while your armor and defensive cooldowns take care of the rest. Not something I see most Jedi able to pull off reliably, but a Vanguard certainly can. Most big stuff going up to 50 is not on a wide-open field with no way to keep out of trouble. IMHO, Assault does that best but anyone investing in Plasma or Ion Cell talents can pull it off, and Shield qualifies. Now, straight up "tank" Vanguard as a Shield definitely gets better with time and talenting. But I'll leave that to the Shield users to explain better than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va_wanderer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It sounds to me as if you are relying too much on abilities that use up ammo and not enough on hammershot. I certainly wouldnt suggest going assault spec because you'll blow a fuse over ammo consumption. Use your taunts to hold aggro, not high damage abilities. Let dps worry about damage. You need to focus on keeping your ammo up for important abilities, like taunt, like interupt, like cc. Tanking at range is not BS at all. The only problem you have is not being able to interupt from range. Sometimes thats a problem, some times its not. Different tactics for different situations. In some situation tanking from range is a huge advantage over tanking at melee range because you have a better view of whats going on around you. I've tanked melee based champions at range without the aid of dps to burn them down and won, why, because if they cant hit you, they cant hurt you. Yeah. Vanguards don't have a process of mixing attacks that build resource bars and burning it on others (well, save talented HIB) but rather ammo management- since dropping below 7 or so is generally a quick road to having to spam Hammer Shot and running out of other options. My partner's a JK and we definitely have different priorities. If you're quick on the draw, you can Harpoon/Riot Strike a target that stops while kiting, then resume the kite if it's a long enough skill, like Whirlwinds and such. Breaking LOS can serve just as well in some cases, long as it was aiming at you to begin with. Fun with stuff like Sith Sorcerer mobs who start burping out channeled lightning only to find you're either no longer in LOS or just yoink/rifleslapped out of it. Except for the really big mobs, you can always lob a grenade in to frost them out of an ability if needed- I manage without talenting the cooldown. The big point about ranged tanking is making the mob frustrated as many times as possible when trying to hit you. I've made them whiff from hitting ramps. Railings. Corners. The forklift I was standing on a second ago before I just dropped behind it. Heck, I've made bosses go spastic playing ring-around-the-rosie with a banner on a post or running laps around a tent, especially when they're slowly lumbering around on fire from a Pulse hit. And taking Inc. Round tics. And exploding from the Sticky I slapped on before sliding out of sight. That sorta thing. Deliver all the damage you can while doing it, but remember- your job is to keep the mob busy so everyone else can drop it. Anything you can do to keep aggro and the kite is priority #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyersfan Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 melee is 4m only, shadow has one or two 10&30m attacks but nothing to write home about, where as vanguards bread and butter attack is 10m (after stroke-strike)...im on my van now as i type this and i gotta be honest. there is a significant seperation between the 2 in terms of damage (and if its this noticeable at my level then i can only imagine the gap increasing) the only reason im sticking with vanguard for the time being is for the 2 gap closers. thus why im ASKING the question in OP. come endgame and iv had time to build up, no doubt i will have done all 3, but till then i like to know all the facts! Force Breach, Slow Time, Force in Balance, Telekinetic Throw, Mind Crush, and Project are all moves out of mêlée range. Granted you can't have Slow Time & Force in Balance at the same time. Playing my Shadow tank has been a blasty blast. However, I prefer the Vanguard tank in terms of versatility. The two gap closers are great (and absolutely fantastic for datacron hunting). I think the range gives the Vanguard the ultimate upper hand, but this is more or less my personal opinion. A member in my guild is a Vanguard tank and she's an absolute beast. Charging in on one enemy and then grappling another works wonders and is just begging for me to come in and Cyclone Slash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMBender Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Dps Commando here I can't comment on which tank is easier to play or heal but I can say that on avg with the ones I've played with, I can unload harder on things with a VanG speedbumP:D before I'm in danger of stealing aggro. Just my opinion; your milage may vary.(pve perspective) Edited February 17, 2012 by BMBender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Blasphemer. Ranged tanking is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabaal Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Dps Commando here I can't comment on which tank is easier to play or heal but I can say that on avg with the ones I've played with, I can unload harder on things Vith a VanG speedbumb before I'm in danger of stealing aggro. Just my opinion; your milage may vary.(pve perspective) We only ever do the 4 man hard modes so i wouldn't have a clue for Operations and assume they would be harder but that was the reason i would tank the 4 mans as DPS spec and throw on some tank gear on my Juggernaut as when going full tank spec DPS Assassins would constantly be pulling aggro from me (we have a limited group so dont have experience with other DPS classes being there). Granted i'm not much of a PvE'er but it was a bit silly how easy it was to lose aggro on it compared to a Powertech. One of the many reasons i'm currently leveling a Vanguard. Edited February 17, 2012 by Kabaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMBender Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) We only ever do the 4 man hard modes so i wouldn't have a clue for Operations and assume they would be harder but that was the reason i would tank the 4 mans as DPS spec and throw on some tank gear on my Juggernaut as when going full tank spec DPS Assassins would constantly be pulling aggro from me (we have a limited group so dont have experience with other DPS classes being there). Granted i'm not much of a PvE'er but it was a bit silly how easy it was to lose aggro on it compared to a Powertech. One of the many reasons i'm currently leveling a Vanguard. Both our MT's are VanG's if that tells you anything. Some fights we sw to off tank but it's specific encounters. EDIT: NOTE: not saying they are better, just what works for us Edited February 17, 2012 by BMBender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chazcon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 my vanguard is currently 21 and i'm struggling to see why i would remain as one, ammo is far too annoying to keep an eye on with your CD, and buff/proc's the only thing i see that the vanguard has going for it is the ''ranged'' tanking which is total BS as you need to be within at least 10m (for the good agro holders. for my level as i see it) so my question is what does the vanguard have in terms of tanking that the shadow and the guardian does not have that would make people want me over the other 2? i want to keep it as equal as possible so all 3 tanks are of their defense trees...if possible, also mention if your argument is endgame or just in general Reroll to another class, if you don't LOVE your Vanguard at any level you are not one of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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