longgrassgrows Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 you do realize that stealth is technically a "gap closer"...and u get vanish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I would like to say 'thank you!' to all the people in this thread who are not playing an Operative/Scoundrel but have been honest and admitted that this class needs some sort of buff to get it en par with the other classes. You are the people who are truly interested in playing a balanced game with a great diversity of classes instead of just trying to get every other class but your own nerfed into the ground like sadly the majority of people on these boards do. yes, only you are concerned about balance, everyone that disagrees with you doesnt care about balance...the fact that you play the class whom you want to buff has nothing to do with the topic at hand... are you freakin kidding me? i have heard of people being delusional, but come on. Edited March 4, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kckkryptonite Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) Sever Tendon is awesome and unaffected by resolve. The "other" stealth class does not have this nor the insane opening burst damage + knockdown out of stealth, nor medium armor or self-heals. I have both stealth classes and Operatives are far better at killing **** faster. Edited March 4, 2012 by kckkryptonite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiazabi Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 you do realize that stealth is technically a "gap closer"...and u get vanish you do realize technically assasin / shadows get force speed(usable both in and out of stealth) , pull , stealth as a "gab closer"...and they get a vanish. See what i did there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrias Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 The problem I feel that exists with Stealth + Burst DPS class (as scoundrel), is that if you also add a direct gap closer, you start to make them very over-powered. To the point that some classes become free kills, regardless of skill level. For this reason, I don't think a Charge or Shadowstep would be sensible to give to give then. Personally, I really like the idea given earlier in the thread for a ground-targeted grappling hook. Given the suggested 1.5s induction, it also becomes a tactical tool. Planning where to place it to end up in the right place at the right time. Ground targeted induction AoE's have a visible marker on the floor, it would also give "aware" players the chance to avoid it. Finally, it also provides a unique and alternative utility in hutball. The ability to leap TO the end-zone, not just people milling around already in the end-zone could be what an OP/Scoundrel bring to the table as far as mobility is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 you do realize technically assasin / shadows get force speed(usable both in and out of stealth) , pull , stealth as a "gab closer"...and they get a vanish. See what i did there. i see that assassins are overpowered comparing your class to an overpowered one does not make your class UP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) The problem I feel that exists with Stealth + Burst DPS class (as scoundrel), is that if you also add a direct gap closer, you start to make them very over-powered. To the point that some classes become free kills, regardless of skill level. For this reason, I don't think a Charge or Shadowstep would be sensible to give to give then. Personally, I really like the idea given earlier in the thread for a ground-targeted grappling hook. Given the suggested 1.5s induction, it also becomes a tactical tool. Planning where to place it to end up in the right place at the right time. Ground targeted induction AoE's have a visible marker on the floor, it would also give "aware" players the chance to avoid it. Finally, it also provides a unique and alternative utility in hutball. The ability to leap TO the end-zone, not just people milling around already in the end-zone could be what an OP/Scoundrel bring to the table as far as mobility is concerned. That makes a lot of sense. Good idea! Edited March 4, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) The problem I feel that exists with Stealth + Burst DPS class (as scoundrel), is that if you also add a direct gap closer, you start to make them very over-powered. To the point that some classes become free kills, regardless of skill level. For this reason, I don't think a Charge or Shadowstep would be sensible to give to give then. Personally, I really like the idea given earlier in the thread for a ground-targeted grappling hook. Given the suggested 1.5s induction, it also becomes a tactical tool. Planning where to place it to end up in the right place at the right time. Ground targeted induction AoE's have a visible marker on the floor, it would also give "aware" players the chance to avoid it. Finally, it also provides a unique and alternative utility in hutball. The ability to leap TO the end-zone, not just people milling around already in the end-zone could be what an OP/Scoundrel bring to the table as far as mobility is concerned. Sounds super clunky. Just give them shadowstep and call it a day. Edited March 4, 2012 by CaptainInsano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I'm sure the shadows are complaining the you can heal yourself and they cant, and let's not mention the number of attacks you have that have a range of 30m. Amusingly, the FoTM Assassin spec can probably self heal for more than a Concealment Operative and they don't have to cast anything or waste energy. Concealment heals are totally worthless and NEVER worth casting in combat. Might be good to survive DoTs or something after a fight, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you look at the abilities, Assassins also have close to as many ranged attacks as Operatives. It's just a clear imbalance between 2 easy to compare stealth DPS classes. One has everything the other has plus 3 times the utility. Gee, I wonder what the fix should be? Edited March 4, 2012 by CaptainInsano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zyraxes Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Every mdps has some kind of gap closer , you nerfed our burst (wich was probably only reason we didnt had gap closer) now we are just weaker version of shadow/assassin with no gap closer...how can any1 justify shadow/assasin has knockback force speed as core ability and scoundrel/ops has flury and weak dot...let me play this scenario again for all the whiners...sorcs has punt with root what are we suposed to do if we didnt burst it enough??? this happens every time in every wz and we are screwed we dont have any option to get to the target but hey you nerfed our burst:) And another thing stealth its not gap closer ,force speed is , force leap is , grapple is, use your brain next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 You might want to mention that you have to set up that heal and can only pop it on a CD. Talented Battle Readiness 10% heal is on a 2 min CD only IF you spec up the tanking tree. And the combat stance heal isnt 1%, its 425 (IIRC) a max of once every 4.5s and again has a proc chance of 25 - 32.5% if you spec some more points into it. You have to actually be hitting people to do any form of self heal - and all it takes is a well-timed KB to ruin it for you. 20k+ heals in a WZ is not that useful. Set up? What set up, beyond what I already mentioned (fully stack harnessed darkness). It takes 10 seconds or less to set up, depending on force levels and procs (wither shock wither). "You have to actually be hitting people." No kidding. That's the genius of the talent. You get to heal yourself without ever stopping dealing damage, and the entire chain from setup to completion is immune to interrupts (CC can happen to anyone). As an assassin, when exactly are you NOT hitting people other than while you're stunned? I don't think operatives do much while CC'd either. When you complain that a well-timed knockback can ruin the setup for harnessed darkness, please remember that we are comparing operatives to assassins. A well-timed knockback is annoying to an assassin. A well-timed knockback is crippling to an operative, since they have no gap closer of any kind. And as long as we're talking about healing, you would do well to remember that force lightning is immune to interrupts with a 3-stack. A dps operative's heals never even gain pushback resistance, much less interrupt immunity. I believe the CD on interrupts is universally lower than that on knockbacks, yes? Oh, and thanks for the correction on the dark charge heal. That's actually significantly better than I thought it was (425 at 20,000 HP is just over 2%). 20k+ heals on a dps/tank--when you're also doing 20k protection and 200k damage--at level 40 is very useful. I couldn't even tell you the number of times self-healing has allowed me to survive long enough to prevent a cap or kill someone or just distract the team. Even though I think that the idea of healing being "utility" for a dps operative is completely ludicrous and foreign to the mind of anyone who has actually played the class, I'll accept it for the sake of argument. Ok, operatives get healing as utility in exchange for a gap closer. Then why do juggernauts and assassins, who have tanking as utility, give nothing up? An aoe taunt barely even has an opportunity cost and will do a heck of a lot more than a weak heal that requires 2.5s of hard casting without getting interrupted at all. I don't mention marauders, but I don't think any intelligent players are complaining about where they are in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 yes, only you are concerned about balance, everyone that disagrees with you doesnt care about balance...the fact that you play the class whom you want to buff has nothing to do with the topic at hand... are you freakin kidding me? i have heard of people being delusional, but come on. People who disagree that operatives are in need of some help may care about balance, but they're certainly ignorant. As evidenced by this thread. Heck, two posts above yours someone is repeating the mantra "stealth is a gap closer." Ridiculous. If it is a gap closer, then drop the CD down to 15s to make it in-line with the rest. Or, stop being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Sever Tendon is awesome and unaffected by resolve. The "other" stealth class does not have this nor the insane opening burst damage + knockdown out of stealth, nor medium armor or self-heals. I have both stealth classes and Operatives are far better at killing **** faster. Although technically assassins don't get an ability called "Sever Tendon," they do in fact have a snare. More than one, actually, if you count force lightning. Also, assassins have self-healing, a 2s knockdown on a 30s cooldown that doesn't have the positional (or stealth) requirements of Hidden Strike, and the equivalent of heavy armor if they spec for it. Oh yeah, and their stun has 30y range. Stop being ignorant. You say you "play" an assassin, but judging by this post you haven't played an assassin long. I'm not convinced of this huge burst damage operatives are supposed to be doing. Last time an operative jumped me (equal gear level--champion), I think I lost maybe 10, 15% of my health. I'm a lot more concerned about getting caught in the open by a merc or locked down by a marauder or assassin than I am about operatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulkweazel Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 yes, only you are concerned about balance, everyone that disagrees with you doesnt care about balance...the fact that you play the class whom you want to buff has nothing to do with the topic at hand... are you freakin kidding me? i have heard of people being delusional, but come on....And I play a PT as my main and I still think Ops need help. So much for your argument, which is a logical fallacy anyway. Have you played an Op? No? Then how can you presume to know more about the class than someone who actually does play it? Fact of the matter is, Ops get to choose their battles. Meaning they will win the vast majority of them since they will only strike when they have a high probability of winning. This means the majority of players only see them doing well, but they don't take into account the many times when Ops just don't do anything because they know it's a losing battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurmez Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 my guardian needs all abilities increased to 100m, stealth, a pull, HPs increased by 300% to compensate for my lack of ability I hope BW doesnt listen to these morons trying to lower the skill level of all classes to facerolling. Just because a bad player can be semi effective on a BH/Trooper by spamming grav/tracer, it doesnt mean the other classes should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antilogical Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 my guardian needs all abilities increased to 100m, stealth, a pull, HPs increased by 300% to compensate for my lack of ability I hope BW doesnt listen to these morons trying to lower the skill level of all classes to facerolling. Just because a bad player can be semi effective on a BH/Trooper by spamming grav/tracer, it doesnt mean the other classes should be. Not trying to lower the skill level, I mean, i'd still be happy if that took away most of our ranged attacks, and one of our stuns if they just gave us a gap closer. It would make the class so much more fast paced and enjoyable then it is now desperatly trying to run after your target. That being said, I don't speak for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) my guardian needs all abilities increased to 100m, stealth, a pull, HPs increased by 300% to compensate for my lack of ability I hope BW doesnt listen to these morons trying to lower the skill level of all classes to facerolling. Just because a bad player can be semi effective on a BH/Trooper by spamming grav/tracer, it doesnt mean the other classes should be. Don't make that claim of a gap closer for Operatives sound so ridiculous. Operative is the weakest class in this game right now and if you had actually played it past lvl 50 you would know that. In fact, just asking for a gap closer for the class is being really modest considering the shape that it is in right now. Edited March 5, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kveldur Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Dont operatives/scoundrel have passive increased run speed?, would opt that they take that away and give you a sprint with a semi short cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulkweazel Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Dont operatives/scoundrel have passive increased run speed?, would opt that they take that away and give you a sprint with a semi short cooldown.Talented yes we get a 15% run speed that doesn't stack with sprint, also a couple talents that increase speed situationally (One after Cloaking Screen, another after Debilitate). Personally I never even notice the 15% passive speed increase and I only assume it's working as intended. CS speed buff is only really good for escaping, though I occasionally use it to cap an objective quickly in Voidstar. Speed buff on Debilitate doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexdaphnis Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) OK i get it. most whiners here troll that we dont need gap closer bla bla...besides the point that every melee has some kind of gap closer why all of you crybabies think we dont need it? Will gap closer make us overpowered? if so, how? Edited March 5, 2012 by Alexdaphnis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosene Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Why dont they just give snipers stealth and all melee abilities and get it over with? You drop people in 5 seconds and still complain?You are unbeatable 1v1(assuming you dont suck) and you complain? Seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexdaphnis Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Why dont they just give snipers stealth and all melee abilities and get it over with? You drop people in 5 seconds and still complain?You are unbeatable 1v1(assuming you dont suck) and you complain? Seriously... Exaggerating wont make your post true, only makes you silly. This is 2012 march, dont write about prenerf 1.1 fighting rank 10 players , every class did that then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Although technically assassins don't get an ability called "Sever Tendon," they do in fact have a snare. More than one, actually, if you count force lightning. Also, assassins have self-healing, a 2s knockdown on a 30s cooldown that doesn't have the positional (or stealth) requirements of Hidden Strike, and the equivalent of heavy armor if they spec for it. Oh yeah, and their stun has 30y range. Stop being ignorant. You say you "play" an assassin, but judging by this post you haven't played an assassin long. I'm not convinced of this huge burst damage operatives are supposed to be doing. Last time an operative jumped me (equal gear level--champion), I think I lost maybe 10, 15% of my health. I'm a lot more concerned about getting caught in the open by a merc or locked down by a marauder or assassin than I am about operatives. +1 this guy hit the nail on the head. I play both stealth classes and whoever posted that garbage information this was in reply to obviously had never played one above 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Why dont they just give snipers stealth and all melee abilities and get it over with? You drop people in 5 seconds and still complain?You are unbeatable 1v1(assuming you dont suck) and you complain? Seriously... If anyone drops any equally geared player in 5 seconds... I think the only sucking is where dead player failed to notice other sources of damage, because with the GCD it is impossible to do 15k in 3 GCDs alone. Edited March 5, 2012 by drduncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antilogical Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Please BioWare, atleast say somthing on the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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