A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Ich_Bin]

Well i never support this kind of thread.

 

Each class got their own good and bad points atm.

 

If you want something you need to pay something with equal valor in return.

 

What will it be then? What will operatives pay for their own gap closer?

 

You are forgetting one thing: Operatives already "paid" with a big decrease in their opener and also their overall damage weeks ago (several times actually). So by your logic they should have been given something in return, right?

 

The developers designed a class with next to no group utility but with very high burst damage. Basically an anti-healer/anti-tank class. Then they took that burst away but did not compensate by giving the class more utility.

The result is that the class cannot fulfil its old purpose (at least not better than any of the other dps classes) and noone is playing it anymore.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Alexdaphnis]

I am Protocol Droid A0-H0 of Human-Cyborg Relations.

 

We have received your transmission regarding with that Scoundrel/Operatives do not have a way to close in the gap towards the enemy. We understand how difficult it is for you experiencing this. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you and we are more than willing to help you with this concern.

 

The gameplay style for operatives and scoundrel are stealth and only this two advance classes have skills that improve stealth. We would only recommend you to utilize all available abilities that your scoundrel can use.

 

What a joke:)

[carbocat]

This simply isn't true, the only thing we've got to keep people in melee is a 50% snare with a 2 second root every 12 seconds.

 

Literally every ranged class has a knockback, a decent trooper or gunslinger should have absolutely no problem getting 10 yards away from an operative.

 

 

All you need to do is wait till their 50% slow on you is almost up (Its cooldown is the same as its duration) and then use your knockback, that's it.

 

 

Past that if you stay moving, there is literally no way for an operative to get back on you besides popping their 2 minute stealth cooldown.

 

Ever heard of toxic scan? dispell slow? you need to l2p

[Ich_Bin]

Ever heard of toxic scan? dispell slow? you need to l2p

 

Oh boy... yeah that dispell works REALLY well on knockbacks.

[Sookster]

Between my assassin and operative which are both stealth classes, I have no problems keeping up with kiters on my assassin due to force speed and lightning snare (recklessness for 30m range). On my operative I'd have to be within range to sever tendon and hope I can catch up, other than that, I can't do much with crappy rifle shot or anything else.

 

Suppose BW didn't give operative a gap closer because they don't see a need for medicine and lethality needing it, but they could at least give concealment tree a new box or add it to an existing box to grant a gap closing sprint. Right now debilitate's slip away sprint is to ESCAPE, not to catch up, and evasion imperative doesn't work and infiltrator's small movement speed is nice but isn't enough (for some reason infiltrator's 15% isn't the same speed as slip away's speed which is also 15%).

Edited March 3, 2012 by Sookster

[Barrechor]

Shadows/Assassins have Gap closer + Stealth

 

Scoundrels/Ops have Stealth and no gap closer

 

That seems balanced to me.....

[Manigma]

What did you expect?

 

A stealthy class being able to engage and finish off anyone in 1vs1 situation, at whatever given circumstances, without having to actually use the stealth advantage to carefully pick and choose the fight you can finish?

 

Assassins can 1 v 1 too, and probably better than Operatives (they don't even rely on stealth and have much better sustain). I have played both Assassin and Operative extensively at 50 btw.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Manigma

[Orangerascal]

Shadows/Assassins have Gap closer + Stealth

 

Scoundrels/Ops have Stealth and no gap closer

 

That seems balanced to me.....

 

I'm sure the shadows are complaining the you can heal yourself and they cant, and let's not mention the number of attacks you have that have a range of 30m.

[Barrechor]

I'm sure the shadows are complaining the you can heal yourself and they cant, and let's not mention the number of attacks you have that have a range of 30m.

 

Lets face it, as a scrapper, you have very few ranged attacks to write home about and the healing is really very pitiful unless you spec for it. The only time I use my heals on my scrapper is when Im out of combat to get my 2.5k heal medal (If it crits), because using your heals mid combat is futile.

 

Lets get things straight though, I know a 30m closer would be OP on smugs/ops, but a 15/20m closer is required imho (Even if you had to spec into it). We get no KB either so takign the DPS nerf into account, its a pretty gimped class atm.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Barrechor

[Ich_Bin]

Shadows/Assassins have Gap closer + Stealth

 

Scoundrels/Ops have Stealth and no gap closer

 

That seems balanced to me.....

 

Correction: I think Assassins have 3 gap closers: Speed, 30m stun, pull

[Sinemetu]

I'm sure the shadows are complaining the you can heal yourself and they cant, and let's not mention the number of attacks you have that have a range of 30m.

 

This is yet another example of the stupidity rampant in this thread. Concealment Operatives have exactly three ranged attacks: Rifle shot, orbital bombardment (2.5s cast, 1m CD), and corrosive dart (dot). Assassins have stun (30y range--a second gap closer), force lightning every 1m30s, and the option to pick up force pull (also 30y range).

 

Additionally, my assassin DOES heal herself. She can easily do 20k+ healing without even stopping dpsing. With a full stack of harnessed darkness, you heal yourself for 12% over the duration. Overcharge Sabre with talents is another 10% heal, above and beyond the 1% heals from using dark charge.

 

And finally, assassins do have sprint to get up close and a knockback to clear the area if things are too hot, or you just want to interrupt another cast.

 

@whoever it was that said powertechs have it worse at 100 heat than operatives at 0 energy: stop being ignorant. Heat and Energy are functionally identical mechanics. Both operatives and powertechs have a few abilities and cooldowns to recover from being in a resource hole, and both are effectively crippled at 100 heat/0 energy. You think it takes powertechs a minute to come back from that? Obvious exaggeration, but operatives are in the exact same boat. Except that we don't get a pull and the option to talent into a leap and two options to talent into a snare on our base 30y attack and heavy armor.

 

Finally, I've said it before and I'll say it again: stealth is not a gap closer. It's a way to start combat up close, which is not remotely the same thing. Play a stealth class, pvp, and see how often you get out of combat after a kill. Except in huttball, where operatives are acknowledged as borderline useless, getting out of combat just doesn't happen once the fight starts.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Sinemetu

[Badlander]

i dont think you guys need a gap closer since you have a blaster and can still do damage from range. not great damage, but damage.

 

you also have flash grenade.

 

They also can sneak up on you Stealth is a great gap closer.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Badlander

[Phuzz]

I think some of your posts need to be more specific.

 

I.E. Shadows/Assassins dont have a 'Pull' Unless you spec way up into the tanking tree (and whilst FotM, not everyone does this).

 

There are many other examples within most of these posts.

 

Also, it would help when have a big cry over not having a gap closer to state your spec, so that when you also cry about your heal ability 'being pitiful unless you spec into it' we could then tell that you traded off being able to heal better for more damage.

 

Another thing is, its easy to gloss over the fact that Ops also have a better range of CC abilities, and that self healing, however pitiful (which is actually isnt) is always extremely useful in a lot of situations.

 

Theres no way in the world you should be given a gap closer of any sort, without trading it off to lose something else. Id LOVE to have a castable heal, so maybe i should post a cry-baby thread about that . . .

[Maxkardinal]

The Ops want a gap closer? Then give my Guardian/Juggernaut a repeatable self-heal.

With 2.5 sec cast and 3 rage cost - feel free to have it. And i will laugh above your corpse when you will try to save your life during combat with it.

 

By reading this thread i felt realy sorry for BioWare employees. I think they are abit frustrated by seeing viral expancion of idiocy on forums and understanding fact thtat they have to leasten those idiots, because they are the vast majority with same dollars....

[Phuzz]

Additionally, my assassin DOES heal herself. She can easily do 20k+ healing without even stopping dpsing. With a full stack of harnessed darkness, you heal yourself for 12% over the duration. (about 2k ish. Woo!) Overcharge Sabre with talents is another 10% heal, above and beyond the 1% heals from using dark charge.

 

You might want to mention that you have to set up that heal and can only pop it on a CD. Talented Battle Readiness 10% heal is on a 2 min CD only IF you spec up the tanking tree. And the combat stance heal isnt 1%, its 425 (IIRC) a max of once every 4.5s and again has a proc chance of 25 - 32.5% if you spec some more points into it.

 

You have to actually be hitting people to do any form of self heal - and all it takes is a well-timed KB to ruin it for you.

 

20k+ heals in a WZ is not that useful.

[Barrechor]

I think some of your posts need to be more specific.

 

I.E. Shadows/Assassins dont have a 'Pull' Unless you spec way up into the tanking tree (and whilst FotM, not everyone does this).

 

There are many other examples within most of these posts.

 

Also, it would help when have a big cry over not having a gap closer to state your spec, so that when you also cry about your heal ability 'being pitiful unless you spec into it' we could then tell that you traded off being able to heal better for more damage.

 

Another thing is, its easy to gloss over the fact that Ops also have a better range of CC abilities, and that self healing, however pitiful (which is actually isnt) is always extremely useful in a lot of situations.

 

Theres no way in the world you should be given a gap closer of any sort, without trading it off to lose something else. Id LOVE to have a castable heal, so maybe i should post a cry-baby thread about that . . .

 

Scrapper spec (Not sure of Ops equiv) should have the option of a closer within the tree, theres no ifs or buts about it. We have no gap closer or knockback which frankly is retarded in itself. We should be missing maybe one of them, but both? lol.

 

Self heals are pitiful regardless of what crap you think. A 2.5 sec cast time (Which is super easily interrupted just like Tracer missile *Cough*). You also claim our CCs are so much more superior..... how? 4 second stun on a 30 second CD (Which you have to spec into for the reduced CD) a 2 second root (Wow, just.... wow) with a 50% speed reduc, a 1.5 second KD (Again..... wow) and a couple of Mezz skills, which dont really help in combat and both have crap range. We have a few more CCs but theyre all pretty unspectacular CCs, as CCs go. Guardians/Juggs have better CCs than we do and I should know as my main is a BM Focus Guard.

 

When they nerfed the DPS of the class, they either needed to give it increased survivability via defensive options or by utility. Which we have neither of.

[drduncan]

as much as I love my scoundrel.... at 50 he's basically little more than an annoyance to anyone unless they are just horrible.

 

Huttball?

 

Don't get me started.

 

I haven't shelved him completely yet, but if they don't give us something utility wise soon I'll have to.

 

My guild mates already stated they want me on the team but on another class for rateds. A real serious group about pvp isn't going to want a class with no utility at all. So when that happens, I'll be forced to switch toons.

 

So play PVE you say? Not likely... most serious guilds won't take scoundrels of any spec.

 

It's really sad that a few people got butthurt and killed the class off for either type of end game content.

 

 

This is getting a little long-winded, but let me add... just because ops/sc are good if played by someone experienced with the class in the 1-49 bracket once they are 40+ means nothing.

[Ich_Bin]

I would like to say 'thank you!' to all the people in this thread who are not playing an Operative/Scoundrel but have been honest and admitted that this class needs some sort of buff to get it en par with the other classes.

 

You are the people who are truly interested in playing a balanced game with a great diversity of classes instead of just trying to get every other class but your own nerfed into the ground like sadly the majority of people on these boards do.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[drduncan]

Theres no way in the world you should be given a gap closer of any sort, without trading it off to lose something else. Id LOVE to have a castable heal, so maybe i should post a cry-baby thread about that . . .

 

Then play an op or scoundrel since that self heal is so appealing... seriously 1.5k at 50 on a 2.5 second cast...if its really oh-so great then why don't you roll one?

 

Answer: LoLs me play a melee with no gap closer? no wai man, no wai

[Orangerascal]

This is yet another example of the stupidity rampant in this thread. Concealment Operatives have exactly three ranged attacks: Rifle shot, orbital bombardment (2.5s cast, 1m CD), and corrosive dart (dot). Assassins have stun (30y range--a second gap closer), force lightning every 1m30s, and the option to pick up force pull (also 30y range).

 

You also have:

 

- Corrosive grenade (aoe, 30m, 6s cooldown)

- And a plethora of attacks that use cover including the high hitting cover + explosive probe combo

 

If you don't think these tools are enough, then what can I say you're doing something wrong. I myself have a scoundrel and don't require a gap closer.

 

Put it this way, you can keep praying bioware changes the class design or you can get better. Please keep thinking other people are stupid when you don't even name all the abilities yourself. Who's stupid again?

Edited March 3, 2012 by Orangerascal

[SammuelSK]

20k+ heals in a WZ is not that useful.

 

And a ****** heal that costs a rediculous ammount of energy, is unusable in combat (The damage recieved from ANY class will be greater then the ammount healed during cast time), and requires us to find a hiding spot to cast... well... yeah, 30+ pages of people not understanding how that works, not understanding how Ops work, yet unwilling to accept the class might be broken.

 

You want a heal during combat in PVP, pop a *********** stim. Its what any good Ops does, because they sure as hell aren't gonna stop and heal themselves during a fight.

[blarse]

You also have:

 

- Corrosive grenade (aoe, 30m, 6s cooldown)

- And a plethora of attacks that use cover including the high hitting cover + explosive probe combo

 

If you don't think these tools are enough, then what can I say you're doing something wrong. I myself have a scoundrel and don't require a gap closer.

 

Put it this way, you can keep praying bioware changes the class design or you can get better. Please keep thinking other people are stupid when you don't even name all the abilities yourself. Who's stupid again?

 

Corrosive Grenade is a lethality talent

 

If by plethora of cover attacks you mean 2 (charged burst/snipe and sab charge/explosive probe)

 

For someone with a 50 Scoundrel you sure are ignorant, kinda like in that defense chance thread with your sage.

[hulkweazel]

You also have:

 

- Corrosive grenade (aoe, 30m, 6s cooldown)

 

- And a plethora of attacks that use cover including the high hitting cover + explosive probe combo

 

If you don't think these tools are enough, then what can I say you're doing something wrong. I myself have a scoundrel and don't require a gap closer.

 

Put it this way, you can keep praying bioware changes the class design or you can get better. Please keep thinking other people are stupid when you don't even name all the abilities yourself. Who's stupid again?

So we have a talent deep in Lethality (You know, the tree no one uses) and a "plethora" of cover attacks? By "Plethora" you mean two? Because that's all I count.

 

Anyone who actually plays an Operative will realize that the lack of any kind of support to cover makes it pretty much useless for normal use. Sure you could try forcing it in for Explosive Probe or as a pseudo-gap closer, but it's very clunky and buggy. The fact that you even bring this up makes me doubt you actually play an Op (Or, you played one to level 15 or so).

[Orangerascal]

Corrosive Grenade is a lethality talent

 

I meant fragmentation grenade, like I said I play a scoundrel, I don't know the mirror abilities that well. It's amazing your guys could not figure it out. Especially since I put 6s cooldown. I'll just in scoundrel terms from now on.

 

 

If by plethora of cover attacks you mean 2 (charged burst/snipe and sab charge/explosive probe)

 

In addition to our Vital shot (DOT), themal grenade (30m aoe grenade with a 6s cooldown) and flurry of bolts (our basic 30m attack), I think this gives enough choices to not have a gap closer and insures that we waste no GCD's.

 

For someone with a 50 Scoundrel you sure are ignorant, kinda like in that defense chance thread with your sage.

 

So I was ignorant because I choose the wrong ability name for my mirror class? I think the more ignorant person was the person who didn't list 'fragmentation grenade' in the first place, or the person who could not infer what ability I was talking about (30m range, aoe, 6s cooldown)

 

Oh wait I'm not the one whining about my classes.

 

Good luck praying to Bioware to make your class better. Probably just easier to learn how to play it. The scoundrels on my team, including me don't find the same problems. The people playing rated wf's won't find the same problems. The people posting scoundrel videos don't find the same problem.

 

Yes, scoundrels are weaker in huttball, but more than make up for it in alderaan and voidstar.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Kyrandis]

Then play an op or scoundrel since that self heal is so appealing... seriously 1.5k at 50 on a 2.5 second cast...if its really oh-so great then why don't you roll one?

 

Answer: LoLs me play a melee with no gap closer? no wai man, no wai

 

PvE you are correct, actually my guild did that today. We needed sustained DPS our choices

 

Sentinel

Commando

Scoundrel

 

Only 2 spots left, me and the rest of the officers came to a unanimous conclusion.

Guess who got to sit out?

Edited March 4, 2012 by Kyrandis