Was Flashpoint Esseles a Bait and Switch?

[Coiffio]

Truth be told and the sad reality: If FP's were as long and story rich as Esseles, people would be on here raging that it "takes too long".

 

The truth is Bioware can't win with a post-WoW (ie entitled, lazy, A.D.D., instant-gratification) "casual" crowd.

 

That's the sad state MMO's are borderline forced to cater to nowdays. This board highlights that daily with the feigned outrage over nonsense.

 

Lies, I'm none of those things, and while I loved the black talon and esseles, the fact is that if every flashpoint was like that, especially the esseles, you would dread making alts. You will have seen the content and grown tired of it a couple times through, but when you group with other people, chances are you gotta sit through it, over and over and over, and let's say you're there for a specific drop. Nope, glad BW went in this direction. Now I would have liked to have story driven flashpoints interspersed with quick runs, but no, I would definitely not like to have every flashpoint be as drawn out as the esseles.

[Sky_walkerPL]

Than probably this isn't an MMO for you. You look for grind and quick awards. It's not here. Here leveling is all about content and stories.

Having flashpoints like Hammer Station is a joke.

[Coiffio]

Than probably this isn't an MMO for you. You look for grind and quick awards. It's not here. Here leveling is all about content and stories.

Having flashpoints like Hammer Station is a joke.

 

Nice of you to assume that. A story stops being a story when you've sat through it 30 times. it's not all about quick rewards, it's about needless repetition.

[Racheakt]

This is a big complaint for me OP, the Essels and BT instances are what i expected for all flashpoints in this "Story Matters" MMO.

 

I wanted all the flashpoints to be mini stories, the way it is now gives me the "Conan" feel that the first 20 or so levels are well thought out, but that there was a rush to fill the gaps.

 

 

Everything after the first instance on both sides have a decided lack of story to flashpoints and become the standard trash to boss to trash to boss instance that i can get in any mmo

[Gilbara]

I don't have any character over level 29 which is why the last FP i did was Cademinu. Some are saying all the FP's after Cademinu are like Esseles. I did not know that. Think about it from my perspective:

 

Start my swtor journey:

 

 

1. Esseles (lvl 10) = Awesome cutescenes
   
2. Hammer station (lvl 15) = no cutscenes
   
3. Athis (lvl 21) = no cutscenes
   
4. Mandalrean Raiders (lvl 23) = no cutscenes
   
5. Cademinu (lvl 29) = no cutscenes
   

 

 

Now I am at lvl 29 just finishing Cademinu and thinking to myself...what a load of crap, Esseles was a bait and switch. And because I am thinking this and feeling let down, I decide I won't waste my time looking for future FP groups. I log in less, make a few alts, and start getting bored with a game.

 

If this happened to me, I can imagine a similar experience might happen to others.

 

There was no sign on carrick station warning me the FP's become awesome again "after" level 30.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Gilbara

[Marcato]

I played MMO's before this supposed "vast majority" demographic discovered WoW and will once this "vast majority" rediscovers Tetris.

 

There's an app for that...and EA charges a subscription for it.

[Yukondoit]

Story Heavy Flashpoints for the Republic:

 

 

• The Esseles
  
• Taral V
  
• Maelstrom Prison
  
• Battle of Ilum
  
• False Emperor
  
• Kaon Under Siege
  

 

 

Story Heavy Flashpoints for the Empire:

 

 

• The Black Talon
  
• Boarding Party
  
• The Foundry
  
• The Battle of Ilum
  
• False Emperor
  
• Kaon Under Siege
  

 

 

Hammer Station, Athiss, Mandalorian Raiders, Cademimu, Colicoid War Games, Crimson Reaper, and Directive 7 are on the Story light side of things.

 

There is no bait and switch. You just need to actually finish the damn game.

[gannonmoss]

So I thought, well maybe the next Flashpoints are like Esseles. Nope.

 

Athiss, Mandalorean Raiders, Cademinu, etc. are all totally devoid of storyline, and cutscenes.

 

This is why I believe The Esseles was a bait and switch.

 

This is very true. However once you hit level cap and are running Hard Modes, the story sequences make you want to punch through your monitor. Even when you run with guildies, you get that person who apparently has no idea how the space bar works. From now on I would expect solo content = story, group content = progression/gear

[Ron_Moore]

Was Flashpoint Esseles a Bait and Switch?

 

Yes. Yes it was.

[Commanche]

Start my swtor journey:

 

1. Esseles (lvl 10) = Awesome cutescenes
   
2. Hammer station (lvl 15) = no cutscenes
   
3. Athis (lvl 21) = no cutscenes
   
4. Mandalrean Raiders (lvl 23) = no cutscenes
   
5. Cademinu (lvl 29) = no cutscenes
   

 

The other way of looking at it is:

1. Esseles (lvl 10) = You decide to get on a ship to coruscant with pazaak tables and some buddies so you don't get bored on the trip. While in a discussion about the ship being hunted by imps the ship gets attacked by imps. In order to get the ship out of trouble you need to complete some different objectives - Awesome cutescenes
   
2. Hammer station (lvl 15) = Go destroy this station. It's big and bad and causes lots of needless carnage and death - no cutscenes
   
3. Athis (lvl 21) = Find out what happened to some archaeologists. They've clearly gone mad and attack you due to an old sith and if they get out they will cause needless carnage and death - no cutscenes
   
4. Mandalrean Raiders (lvl 23) = Go kill the Mando's that are causing lots of needless carnage and death - no cutscenes
   
5. Cademinu (lvl 29) = stop planet firing missiles which will cause lots of needless carnage and death - no cutscenes
   

 

The full list of flashpoints is here. The ones with hardmodes have story. The others are go and solve this situation. It wouldn't surprise me if they were there specifically to fill in the caps between other different flashpoints and as such they shoved some NPC enemies in some corridoors between some arbitrary boss fights.

[gurugeorge]

 

This is why I believe The Esseles was a bait and switch.

 

Some people prefer the less story-oriented FPs.

 

BW says it does have more Esseles-like FPs in the pipeline to come (note that they have a year and a half's VO in the can going forward), it's just that they judged it better to have some of the less-story-oriented ones front-loaded on release.

 

i.e. they wanted people to get a taste of what's possible with Esselees, but then wanted the bulk of FPs at this stage of release to be easier to find teams for.

 

I agree that this does open them to the charge of bait and switch, but I doubt that was their intention.

[Stoicraven]

if you do not do Taral V/Maelstrom within the Jedi Prisoner Quest line you're missing out on one of the most epic FPs.

[The_Butler]

As many have pointed out Esseles is not a bait and switch.

 

There is a very nice mix of story heavy and story light content.

 

Taral V and MP are awesome FP's because of the story - they blow Esseles away in my opinion and finished MP grinning from ear to ear.

 

Haven't done all the FPs yet but I wouldn't say Cademimu was light on story - it was just done in the form of Public Service announcements in game and I certainly remember why I was doing the instance the whole way through - plus getting to fly the police car was a nice touch.

 

Colicoid War Games is also a nice example of a FP that didn't really need a story. You're in obstacle course to test your skill in order to win new tech. Some FPs just don't been oodles of cutscenes to make them fun.

 

Out of all the FPs I've done the only one that truly didn't leave an impression was Mandalorian raiders.

 

If given a choice I'd prefer to run Hammer Station again over Esseles - the story does make it take far too long on the 5th or 6th play through to make it appealing...

[inseeisyou]

I will say it seemed like a lot more work went into Esseles than the other flashpoints.

[Oddzball]

I would have to agree, BT and ESS are far and beyond the best FP's n the game. I havent done any of the lvl 50 ones yet (Lvl 47 right now) but the one I remember most was definitely BT.

 

 

 

And those who say Foundry had a lot of story.. Wha?...

 

Yeah it had a total of i think 3 conversations. Which maybe had 2 or 3 lines of conversation. Its not even comparable to BT.

 

And does anything you do in Foundry through story/conversation even change the mission in any fundamental way AT ALL? (Same thing with all the later FP from what Ive seen.) The only one I remember most besides BT was Colicoid because it had some epic funny challenges and required some coordination.

 

I thought the same thing. Bait and switch. Not that I don't love the game, but the quality of the first FP compared to pretty much all the rest is something I noticed right away.

[Tamanous]

Bioware had stated in beta that the flashpoints were a mix of traditional dungeon style and heavy story style. Extra more traditional flashpoints were added later in beta and prior to release. They did this to mix it up and offer something different for those who like different things.

 

I like how you left that little fact out when calling out the tired and overused accusation of "bait and switch".

Edited February 15, 2012 by Tamanous

[Dezzi]

Bioware had stated in beta that the flashpoints were a mix of traditional dungeon style and heavy story style. Extra more traditional flashpoints were added later in beta and prior to release. They did this to mix it up and offer something different for those who like different things.

 

I like how you left that little fact out when calling out the tired and overused accusation of "bait and switch".

 

Many of us don't buy that excuse. And it is an excuse.

[Arkerus]

I really enjoyed D7. The voice overs were awesome.

 

During the beta, many players complained they didn't want 2-3 hour Esseles dungeons every time.

 

Some players wanted shorter runs and they got it. What we have now is a mix.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Arkerus

[Oddzball]

Bioware had stated in beta that the flashpoints were a mix of traditional dungeon style and heavy story style. Extra more traditional flashpoints were added later in beta and prior to release. They did this to mix it up and offer something different for those who like different things.

 

I like how you left that little fact out when calling out the tired and overused accusation of "bait and switch".

 

Well, considering I had the exact same thought after hitting around endgame that NOT ONE FP felt like the same quality as BT, and I swear to god, the first thing I thought was, they lured you in with an epic starter flash point, then pretty much everything after seems sub par.

 

 

Not one FP is even comparable to the first ones.

 

Foundry/Boarding party were not nearly as story heavy as BT, not even close.

 

Nothing you do in those two DRASTICALLY changes your mission the way BT choices do.

[Vlaxitov]

OK when I first heard about this game I checked out the official videos of it, and the one that sold me was a video of Flashpoint Esseles.

 

Once I actually did Esseles for real i thought it was an amazing experience. The story was awesome! It was told using powerful cinematic cutscenes interspersed with fast paced combat, In addition, the wonderful cutscenes allowed all four team members to participate directly in the dialogue and potentially change the outcome of the story, which made for a highly engaging experience. Not to mention the fact we were able to earn much social points together, and light side / dark side points, as well as titles.

 

I got my friend to roll a character just to get them to level 10 so they could do Esseles. They LOVED IT! My friend kept asking when is the next flashpoint.

 

Then came the next one, Flashpoint Hammer Station. And I could not believe the change. None of the elements in Esseles were even used in Hammer Station. The cutscenes were gone. Everything that made Esseles an amazing gaming experience was absent from Hammer Station. All you did was run from area to area, kill the group of enemies, and instead of an immersive storyline with cutscenes you got a voice booming over a loud speaker... what a let down.

 

So I thought, well maybe the next Flashpoints are like Esseles. Nope.

 

Athiss, Mandalorean Raiders, Cademinu, etc. are all totally devoid of storyline, and cutscenes.

 

This is why I believe The Esseles was a bait and switch.

 

LOL, bait & switch. Not only is there more RP but the layout of pulls inside Esseles are simplistic and mind numbingly easy. Citing flashpoints like Cademimu and Athiss to be totally devoid of storyline is just dishonest. I can tell you the storylines of those flashpoints.

 

Esseles is an introduction to flashpoints, not bait & switch.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Goretzu]

 

So I thought, well maybe the next Flashpoints are like Esseles. Nope.

 

Athiss, Mandalorean Raiders, Cademinu, etc. are all totally devoid of storyline, and cutscenes.

 

This is why I believe The Esseles was a bait and switch.

 

 

Yeah, that's the first time you begin to see what Bioware intended versus what they ended up with IMO.

[Kunda]

As others have mentioned there seems to be a pretty healthy mix of story heavy and story lite instances throughout the leveling process. Even though Collicoid isn't exactly story heavy if you run it without a guide the first time it can be incredibly fun. Puzzles for the win!

[Scar]

OK when I first heard about this game I checked out the official videos of it, and the one that sold me was a video of Flashpoint Esseles.

 

Once I actually did Esseles for real i thought it was an amazing experience. The story was awesome! It was told using powerful cinematic cutscenes interspersed with fast paced combat, In addition, the wonderful cutscenes allowed all four team members to participate directly in the dialogue and potentially change the outcome of the story, which made for a highly engaging experience. Not to mention the fact we were able to earn much social points together, and light side / dark side points, as well as titles.

 

I got my friend to roll a character just to get them to level 10 so they could do Esseles. They LOVED IT! My friend kept asking when is the next flashpoint.

 

Then came the next one, Flashpoint Hammer Station. And I could not believe the change. None of the elements in Esseles were even used in Hammer Station. The cutscenes were gone. Everything that made Esseles an amazing gaming experience was absent from Hammer Station. All you did was run from area to area, kill the group of enemies, and instead of an immersive storyline with cutscenes you got a voice booming over a loud speaker... what a let down.

 

So I thought, well maybe the next Flashpoints are like Esseles. Nope.

 

Athiss, Mandalorean Raiders, Cademinu, etc. are all totally devoid of storyline, and cutscenes.

 

This is why I believe The Esseles was a bait and switch.

http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/25/biowares-gabe-amantangelo-speaks-on-faction-imbalance-ui-custo/

 

Listen to the interview. Gabe goes into exactly what you mention. He admits they should have staggered them better, story heavy, story light, story heavy, story light....etc....rather than the way they did it.

 

But it's intentional to have both story heavy and story light FP's.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Scar

[Vlacke]

Flashpoints are awesome in my opinion, even the filler ones without too much story, and i have yet to see them all but from what i hear the higher level ones are excellent as well.

[Tamanous]

Many of us don't buy that excuse. And it is an excuse.

 

Way to expand on that 0.o.

 

 

I provided proof and you simply say you don't buy it? Nice. I see politics in your future.

 

I researched the game with easily obtained information and discovered what I posted previously. I played the beta and discovered what I posted previously. I fail to see how this and many other things people are whining about on the forums today are all suddenly "amazing new information!".

 

If you choose ignorance to support your argument there is nothing anyone can do to convince you otherwise. If that is true then why even bring it forth for debate on the forums?

 

Others have posted with clear and concise information that many flashpoints are extremely story driven. If you haven't discovered or played the story through The Foundry then you have absolutely no legs to stand on.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Tamanous