Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassin needs a big nerf soon.

[the_coaltrain]

Let me be clear ... the issue on the table is only shadow/assassin tank spec.

 

I play a Vanguard pyro spec right now. Speaking from personal experience. I'm only rank 55 valor and running 490 expertise as pyro. I have tried shield spec in pvp and it very helpful for my team but my raw personal numbers are low. I have personally fought and dueled a shadow on our server that is slightly above average at pvp and also has about half BM gear. That character is capable and has killed me before I could put hadly any dmg on her because she can remove and then ignore my tech based attacks 100% while throwing project for back to back large crits in 2 seconds while on the move. That being said:

 

A shadow/assassin that goes tank with DPS gear is OP. I know some will not agree but here are the specific reasons I think so, and I mostly only know the titles for abilities for shadow.

 

1. Resilience lasting 5 seconds (talented) gets to remove current dmg and prevent a lot of incoming. (force and tech only which is obviously crappy for me as I am pryo).

 

2. Possibility of back to back burst projects. You can pick up 2 sets of talents allowing for a possiblity of 2 full projects and 2 half dmg with crits guaranteed on some.

 

3. Force speed is a little too OP IMO... CD is fine but the 150% is a bit much. I think 75 or so .. maybe 100 would be more acceptable and it should not clear current slows (which it feels like it does, maybe only ignoring them for the 2 seconds).

 

4. Blackout taking you out of combat I think is a bit much but hardly a deal breaker.

 

5. Their class buff increasing their stats while decreasing DMG types taken as well as being talented to ignore another 9% of those same dmg types through talents.

 

The overall problem with this class is the what a tank specced dps geared shadow can do. I know some of it is CD reliable, but no other class can come as close to these actions and lucky procs as theirs (I do like getting my free rail shot procs back to back though on my pryo VG).

 

The tank specced shadow/assassin needs to surfer more dmg loss for being a tank and having survivability.

 

 

 

 

For those that mention you wear light armor vs heavy: Combat technique for shadow does 150% increased armor, my ION cell increase armor by 60% making armor no longer an issue.

 

For those that say those are highly situational or CD dependant: I say yes, some of those are, but the fact that only they can get away with it is my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I think they need nerf so bad... I'm now leveling one myself so I can enjoy the ride. But I died a little inside doing so.

[Synacus]

Let me be clear ... the issue on the table is only shadow/assassin tank spec.

 

I play a Vanguard pyro spec right now. Speaking from personal experience. I'm only rank 55 valor and running 490 expertise as pyro. I have tried shield spec in pvp and it very helpful for my team but my raw personal numbers are low. I have personally fought and dueled a shadow on our server that is slightly above average at pvp and also has about half BM gear. That character is capable and has killed me before I could put hadly any dmg on her because she can remove and then ignore my tech based attacks 100% while throwing project for back to back large crits in 2 seconds while on the move. That being said:

 

A shadow/assassin that goes tank with DPS gear is OP. I know some will not agree but here are the specific reasons I think so, and I mostly only know the titles for abilities for shadow.

 

1. Resilience lasting 5 seconds (talented) gets to remove current dmg and prevent a lot of incoming. (force and tech only which is obviously crappy for me as I am pryo).

 

2. Possibility of back to back burst projects. You can pick up 2 sets of talents allowing for a possiblity of 2 full projects and 2 half dmg with crits guaranteed on some.

 

3. Force speed is a little too OP IMO... CD is fine but the 150% is a bit much. I think 75 or so .. maybe 100 would be more acceptable and it should not clear current slows (which it feels like it does, maybe only ignoring them for the 2 seconds).

 

4. Blackout taking you out of combat I think is a bit much but hardly a deal breaker.

 

5. Their class buff increasing their stats while decreasing DMG types taken as well as being talented to ignore another 9% of those same dmg types through talents.

 

The overall problem with this class is the what a tank specced dps geared shadow can do. I know some of it is CD reliable, but no other class can come as close to these actions and lucky procs as theirs (I do like getting my free rail shot procs back to back though on my pryo VG).

 

The tank specced shadow/assassin needs to surfer more dmg loss for being a tank and having survivability.

 

 

 

 

For those that mention you wear light armor vs heavy: Combat technique for shadow does 150% increased armor, my ION cell increase armor by 60% making armor no longer an issue.

 

For those that say those are highly situational or CD dependant: I say yes, some of those are, but the fact that only they can get away with it is my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I think they need nerf so bad... I'm now leveling one myself so I can enjoy the ride. But I died a little inside doing so.

 

First nerfing tanks over PVP is ALWAYS a bad idea....this is a pve game not many ppl care if on only 3 maps of the game are they OPed.I would also add that they are your counter class they should beat you.Just like sage / sorc beat them.They are also the counter to mara which it is very easy to tell that the main topic writer is.Yes one class can beat your mara and you cry about it.......suck it up.

[EthanThristam]

Let me be clear ... the issue on the table is only shadow/assassin tank spec.

 

I play a Vanguard pyro spec right now. Speaking from personal experience. I'm only rank 55 valor and running 490 expertise as pyro. I have tried shield spec in pvp and it very helpful for my team but my raw personal numbers are low. I have personally fought and dueled a shadow on our server that is slightly above average at pvp and also has about half BM gear. That character is capable and has killed me before I could put hadly any dmg on her because she can remove and then ignore my tech based attacks 100% while throwing project for back to back large crits in 2 seconds while on the move. That being said:

 

A shadow/assassin that goes tank with DPS gear is OP. I know some will not agree but here are the specific reasons I think so, and I mostly only know the titles for abilities for shadow.

 

1. Resilience lasting 5 seconds (talented) gets to remove current dmg and prevent a lot of incoming. (force and tech only which is obviously crappy for me as I am pryo).

 

2. Possibility of back to back burst projects. You can pick up 2 sets of talents allowing for a possiblity of 2 full projects and 2 half dmg with crits guaranteed on some.

 

3. Force speed is a little too OP IMO... CD is fine but the 150% is a bit much. I think 75 or so .. maybe 100 would be more acceptable and it should not clear current slows (which it feels like it does, maybe only ignoring them for the 2 seconds).

 

4. Blackout taking you out of combat I think is a bit much but hardly a deal breaker.

 

5. Their class buff increasing their stats while decreasing DMG types taken as well as being talented to ignore another 9% of those same dmg types through talents.

 

The overall problem with this class is the what a tank specced dps geared shadow can do. I know some of it is CD reliable, but no other class can come as close to these actions and lucky procs as theirs (I do like getting my free rail shot procs back to back though on my pryo VG).

 

The tank specced shadow/assassin needs to surfer more dmg loss for being a tank and having survivability.

 

 

 

 

For those that mention you wear light armor vs heavy: Combat technique for shadow does 150% increased armor, my ION cell increase armor by 60% making armor no longer an issue..

 

Dear God, you have almost no facts straight.

 

I'll respond to each of your points.

 

1. Yes, its there to make up for the 12 second damage reduction Guardians/Powertechs/Juggs/Vanguards get to all through their DR cooldowns, none of which we have. You also get 25% force/tech DR on your saber ward, which we don't get. The resilience is there to give us some 'specialty' functionality.

 

2. Agreed, but that's more a problem with the abuse of wearing DPS gear in a tank spec, see above posts.

 

3. So wait what? Its okay for Juggs to have a gap closer that gives them 4 second total immunity, its okay for both Vanguards/Powertechs to have a VERTICAL gap closer that lets you easy mode cap in Huttball, but its not okay for us to have a force speed which barely allows us to cross that same 30m and is still on a longer cooldown?

 

4. ??? Blackout is our stealth enhancer, it doesn't take us out of combat. If you mean Force Cloak then yes, but we can't be healed or heal during that time unless we're infiltration specced.

 

5. That only assumes 1v1 and your team doesn't buff. Everyone is going to have at least one Consular or Inquisitor on their team, guaranteed. And even if you don't come 1.2 then you can get access to it on any character via the legacy system. So try again. That still only puts us at 19% elemental/internal DR, which isn't anymore than any other tank out there even when they have the same buff.

 

6. Your final comment on armor. Our base armor is around mid 2000's. We actually get a 170% buff due to our stasis talent. Sounds like a lot right? Wrong. It puts us at about 6900ish in full Rakata/Battlemaster. What's that equate to DR wise? 41% ~ What do Vanguards/Powertechs/Juggs/Guardians have? About 50-51% damage reduction and around 8000 armor if I recall correctly. We have 10% less damage reduction, which is why we have some of these other advantages to make up for it, because in a long fight we're still going to take more damage than the other tanks.

 

I agree we need a nerf, but let the nerf be making Kinetic Combat/Darkness being forced to wear tank gear to be effective. Not just nerfing the utility that makes our tanking class unique.

 

 

I agree we need to have a damage nerf, but let the nerf be that we're forced to wear tank gear to make Kinetic Combat effective, not to just nerf us across the board. Before you

[_Scattered_]

I agree we need to have a damage nerf, but let the nerf be that we're forced to wear tank gear to make Kinetic Combat effective

 

There isn't really much reason for the other tanks to use tank gear either.

[EthanThristam]

That's the whole point of my other post further up in the thread. My idea being allow tank stats to function against all attacks in PvP but at half strength. This a buff to snipers/gunslingers and those who use white damage, slight nerf to those who use tech/force attacks.

[the_coaltrain]

Dear God, you have almost no facts straight.

 

I'll respond to each of your points.

 

1. Yes, its there to make up for the 12 second damage reduction Guardians/Powertechs/Juggs/Vanguards get to all through their DR cooldowns, none of which we have. You also get 25% force/tech DR on your saber ward, which we don't get. The resilience is there to give us some 'specialty' functionality. Try again yourself... I said I am vangaurd... I DO NOT HAVE SABER WARD. I do get reactive shield for at 25% reduction on dmg (all types) for 12 seconds with a 3 MIN CD no where on par with kinetic shielding and resilience CD. Resilience is on a 1 min CD for 5 seconds with tank spec .. over 3 min like my CD is 15 seconds of 100% reduction on 2 types of abilities which happen to be a large majority of classes dmg covered. Not the same.

 

2. Agreed, but that's more a problem with the abuse of wearing DPS gear in a tank spec, see above posts. EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

 

3. So wait what? Its okay for Juggs to have a gap closer that gives them 4 second total immunity, its okay for both Vanguards/Powertechs to have a VERTICAL gap closer that lets you easy mode cap in Huttball, but its not okay for us to have a force speed which barely allows us to cross that same 30m and is still on a longer cooldown? I can spec tactics and run 30% faster without being slowed. I can spec tank and get from 1 point to another but it requires that someone be there. It allows for a lot more solo pvp advantages and jumps that no other base class can have. And many times you will be on your own in pvp .. especially world.

 

4. ??? Blackout is our stealth enhancer, it doesn't take us out of combat. If you mean Force Cloak then yes, but we can't be healed or heal during that time unless we're infiltration specced. I said the wrong ability my fault here. But I'm only saying out of combat and it says so in the tooltip that you come out of combat.

 

5. That only assumes 1v1 and your team doesn't buff. Everyone is going to have at least one Consular or Inquisitor on their team, guaranteed. And even if you don't come 1.2 then you can get access to it on any character via the legacy system. So try again. That still only puts us at 19% elemental/internal DR, which isn't anymore than any other tank out there even when they have the same buff. often you will not die when your team does and you will come back to the action with only your buff, but either way no class should have a flat reduction on incoming dmg while also increasing their own stats. I can increase only a few hundred hit points which matter not after you start taking any dmg of the course of any fight longer than a few seconds. Those extra hit points only come in handy when you are heal close to full each time.

 

6. Your final comment on armor. Our base armor is around mid 2000's. We actually get a 170% buff due to our stasis talent. Sounds like a lot right? Wrong. It puts us at about 6900ish in full Rakata/Battlemaster. What's that equate to DR wise? 41% ~ What do Vanguards/Powertechs/Juggs/Guardians have? About 50-51% damage reduction and around 8000 armor if I recall correctly. We have 10% less damage reduction, which is why we have some of these other advantages to make up for it, because in a long fight we're still going to take more damage than the other tanks. Your class and many others come with abilities or talents to ignore armor at any rate. I'm saying they are close ... not as far off as you would have us believe. And my tank set is better geared than my pyro.

 

I agree we need a nerf, but let the nerf be making Kinetic Combat/Darkness being forced to wear tank gear to be effective. Not just nerfing the utility that makes our tanking class unique.

 

 

I agree we need to have a damage nerf, but let the nerf be that we're forced to wear tank gear to make Kinetic Combat effective, not to just nerf us across the board. Before you

 

The problem is the class and the talents for that spec. The talents should be more gear dependant forcing the wearer to wear appropriate gear in order to prevent such high burst damage in a pvp situaion.

Edited March 7, 2012 by the_coaltrain

[the_coaltrain]

First nerfing tanks over PVP is ALWAYS a bad idea....this is a pve game not many ppl care if on only 3 maps of the game are they OPed.I would also add that they are your counter class they should beat you.Just like sage / sorc beat them.They are also the counter to mara which it is very easy to tell that the main topic writer is.Yes one class can beat your mara and you cry about it.......suck it up.

 

I'm not a mara myself so I do not speak for the poster, but I'm not talking about nerfing a tanks tanking... I think tanking pvp overall is a little busted, but what I am saying is that they should not be able to do both.

 

 

and those 3 maps hold a lot more of the population than Flashpoints on my server at least. Whether you care about them or not does not matter. The tank should be able to take dmg... not give and take both. That is our only point. Shadow/Assassin tanking would not be nerfed, how is taking the DMG portion away going to make you die faster against a pve mob? Shadows shouldn't be taking 50% more dmg as a tank than my VG and making up for it by dishing out 50% more dmg. That is an imbalance and makes no sense in a group scenario.

[the_coaltrain]

My biggest beef is being able to use the ablities project with the two talents: Particle Acceleration and Upheaval. Those talents should prevent the other from proccing or something. Stack that with Bombardment or Nerve Wracking and shadow is a one button wonder. Too much of the dmg they do is auto button there. It is a based some what of lucky procs but still too much dmg to fast.

 

Second would be resilience being 100%. It should be lower and last longer I think and possibly not remove anything already affecting the target. Just ignore any debuffs while active and then they while apply once again after it ends.

 

Even forcing a tank to wear tank gear I think those talents should be tweaked a little.

Edited March 7, 2012 by the_coaltrain

[Synacus]

I'm not a mara myself so I do not speak for the poster, but I'm not talking about nerfing a tanks tanking... I think tanking pvp overall is a little busted, but what I am saying is that they should not be able to do both.

 

 

and those 3 maps hold a lot more of the population than Flashpoints on my server at least. Whether you care about them or not does not matter. The tank should be able to take dmg... not give and take both. That is our only point. Shadow/Assassin tanking would not be nerfed, how is taking the DMG portion away going to make you die faster against a pve mob? Shadows shouldn't be taking 50% more dmg as a tank than my VG and making up for it by dishing out 50% more dmg. That is an imbalance and makes no sense in a group scenario.

 

Let me tell you about assassin tanking then in pve the only thing ONLY thing they do well is single target tanking BECAUSE of the DPS they do they can hold on to mobs better then anyone else our aoe tanking is trash Merc bounty hunters aoe tank better then us.......and now now you want to take that away too.....see my point? We are the wrost aoe tanks and now you want to make us the wrost single target tanks......Thats what I see when I read this post.

 

Alot of pvp is set in a group setting infact there is no map you can Q up for to just do one vs one.Will a sin tank kill you one vs one? Prolly but where is your team? You CAN NOT blance a game on duels.....that would also be insane.

[grandmasterub]

Lets look at it this way. You are mad because a tank shadow/sin can burst in 1v1 fights. You want to nerf tanks damage output? Well would you be willing to sacrifice your dps specs survivability?

 

My tactics vanguard is just as tanky as my kinetic shadow yet does more damage (altho not burst).

 

You want to nerf shadow damage? Take off your heavy armor when in dps spec...

[DragonianJedi]

Personally, before you can validate nerfing shadow tanks because of their damage in pvp, you need to wait until they fix how defensive stats function in pvp.

 

That will make tanking gear more attractive to tank spec'd shadows, damage levels should go down because there will be people actually capable of taking that damage and things should be a little more balanced.

 

If it turns out that the damage is still too high, then I'd rather see restrictions on what type of gear a shadow tank can wear in pvp than a nerf to abilities/damage for the spec overall.

 

That way you leave pve alone (which I do) and you help out the situation in pvp (which I also do)

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Visbetia]

I think it is imbalanced too .

Tank assassin hybrid >all 1v1

Edited March 8, 2012 by Visbetia

[Asphen]

Nerf this class hard.

[_Scattered_]

Kinetic shadows are everywhere right now, which is why they are starting to receive attention

 

But really, a lot players have a warped view of game balance because certain extremely powerful specs are not often seen.

 

Shouldn't really comment on kinetic shadows unless you have encountered the following:

 

Skilled operative

Skilled pyrotech PT

Skilled pyrotech merc

Skilled Sorc

Skilled marauder

Skilled healers of all specs

(Hell even a tracer spammer with a group meat shield)

 

Getting demolished by these specs especially in group environments is required to gain a proper perspective on class balance.

 

Kinetic shadows are super strong.

 

They are probably the best 1v1 spec in the game, this is a group based game though.

 

I don't have much problem with a slight nerf really, but it should be no more than a 5% damage nerf tied to combat technique (with a corresponding threat increase).

 

This is based on what I have seen the specs above are capable of in the right hands.

 

Anything more is overcompensation, and ignores the the real problem of sniper/jugg weakness.

 

Furthermore nothing should be changed until the rated warzone meta game is well established.

[Baalzamon]

I think it is imbalanced too .

Tank assassin hybrid >all 1v1

 

Its good that this game is team vs team then.

[EthanThristam]

I'm fine with Upheavel being moved to a higher tier, so long as the threat from the Kinetic talent is upgraded to compensate.

 

A change for PvP should not nerf our PvE threat.

[LanricRahl]

So many people saying that PvP tankassins do the same damage as their DPS counterparts... no, just no. Stop being terrible. The only reason PvP tankassins SEEM to do more damage is just because you can actually damage something without dying in 6 seconds when focused even by only one class. The burst and long-term DPS Deception has is so much better than Darkness (for obvious reasons).

 

You can notice this easily: fight an "average-ly" skilled healer and see how much annoyance you can give to your enemy as both spec. If you are Deception, you're actually doing a lot of burst and the healer will actually have to run/heal themselves/pop cds and ignore his "friends". If you are doing it as Darkness though... he'll be healing to full his DPS buddy, then go back to heal himself while you hit him for 2k energized shocks and 900 withers.

 

And you know what? This is TOTALLY fine. It's the way it's supposed to be. The two specs play in two different ways and two different roles... but don't tell me that Darkness does as much damage as Deception because that's simply NOT true.

 

On topic, I also think this is why Darkness is currently fine. They are very strong right now 1v1 after all the "fixed" and buffs they got... but not yet overpowered. They are still at a point where even one small buff will most likely give them too much though.

 

 

I agree with this post. You can't quote end WZ stats like DPS meters, to do so just shows that you weren't thinking about the whole picture. You were just thinking of how it could look from one angle.

[-Sithis-]

http://i.imgur.com/bvars.jpg

 

Say wuuuuuuuuuuuuuut?

[tamgros]

http://i.imgur.com/bvars.jpg

 

Say wuuuuuuuuuuuuuut?

 

The guy is 31 point Madness specced. It's a lot of dmg, but you're a 10m DoT class that is squishy. It's one of the most vulnerable DPS classes in the game because you can't burst people down very easily, and don't have the escapability that infiltration gives you.

 

This is hardly overpowered.

 

I could see changing a few things in Kinetic combat. Reduce the dmg on wither/slow time a bit and make it so Harnessed shadows/darkness is interruptable, but still make it immune to pushback. This seems to make some sense. This would keep them pretty much the same in PvE and make them counterable in 1v1 situations.

 

 

Also, whoever said that Shadows have more mitigation than Juggs is just crazy. Juggs are the tankiest, they are just debuff/CC bots, they don't really bring any pain... I wouldn't mind them seeing a slight dmg buff.

[Phuzz]

My biggest beef is being able to use the ablities project with the two talents: Particle Acceleration and Upheaval. Those talents should prevent the other from proccing or something. Stack that with Bombardment or Nerve Wracking and shadow is a one button wonder. Too much of the dmg they do is auto button there. It is a based some what of lucky procs but still too much dmg to fast.

 

Second would be resilience being 100%. It should be lower and last longer I think and possibly not remove anything already affecting the target. Just ignore any debuffs while active and then they while apply once again after it ends.

 

Even forcing a tank to wear tank gear I think those talents should be tweaked a little

 

Really? Ok, lets nerf project burst (which is mainly RNG anyway). But in conjunction lets stop EVERY other class from being able to do more than 2k dmg in a GCD. Why 2k? because i made it up. Like your bo**cks argument about project. Not only would that nerf Tank Sins, it would nerf Infiltration specs as well.

 

Youre also complaining about using multiple skills/buffs to achieve high-end damage? seriously? Every PVP (and PVE) player since the dawn of time has done this. And is available to EVERYONE (just not cry-babies who cant play properly).

 

IF resilience were less than 100% and/or did not cleanse then Force Cloak (Vanish) would be worthless as generally you will have to pop Resilience AND Force Cloak together to escape (Esp Infiltration Spec which is too squishy without escape tools).

 

 

I think you guys need to stop whining and have a look at your own abilities. I could call many of them OP and demand a nerf, but i dont. I kill some classes easily, some take a bit of effort, and some pretty much spank my bum all day long (unless played by someone garbage). Thats how MMOs work. YOU are not the central character A LA single player games. You will lose sometimes. You will die a lot. Get f**king over yourselves.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Phuzz

[chaotaoquan]

I saw a level 47 assassin do 500k dmg with over 60k guard today, the Op is not lying, this class is overpowered like hell.

[Roiz]

I saw a level 47 assassin do 500k dmg with over 60k guard today, the Op is not lying, this class is overpowered like hell.

I saw mercenary did One million,so who is op like hell?

[Froteus]

Lots of baddies in this post. Any shadow in a tank spec will do far less damage than a real dps spec when both have proper team support.

 

How about you squishy dps get some support instead of crying about trying to 2v1 a tank and his dps partnert and then cry when you die betore the TANK does. I've seen sorcs top over 700k in a WZ

Never seen a tank do that.

 

Chances are you are just terrible and need to l2p.

[KhealThar]

I saw a level 47 assassin do 500k dmg with over 60k guard today, the Op is not lying, this class is overpowered like hell.

 

Any class with Guard can do that in a Void star easily.

 

Just spam taunts/aoe taunts and do damage..

[Rikanis]

I play a sith Jugg, Rage spec.

 

I frequently top the WZ with at least 7 medals.

 

I know what you mean by the damage output though. The base damage of a jugg is about 500 (dmg Pri). My friend who plays a Merc has about 3000 (dmg Pri). I think a small buff to this would improve the juggs ability to PvP, im not talking alot (and put it as part of another talent in eithier the vengence or rage trees) bring it up to about 800-1000 and this problem would be massively offset. Another thing would be to increase the effectiveness of the shield mechanic. I dont know how, but it always seems to be less useful than it should be.

 

I dont think the problem is so much with the assasin class, as it is with the juggs low base damage. A small nerf to the assasin class would improve PvP balance, but the problem (for the devs) is always going to be between PvP and PvE balance. Any nerf they give a class is not going to be PvP specific.

 

Usually the only problem I have in PvP is not being able to out damage trooper/bounty hunter self healing. I dont have much problem with assasins/shadows, the tank ones are a bit harder to take down but not to the point of being game breaking.

 

One thing that ppl are forgetting is that gear plays a massive role. I lvled with immortal spec and did alot of PvP. I had lots of stuns and could save ppl from the brink of death (gaurd/taunt combo), but that was because I had crap-loads of End, def and Absorb. Now I have more str and crit gear and my Dmg is alot better, but my survivability is not as good. Maybe just adjusting the stats on the tanking PvP gear would be enough to offset the PvP problem without carrying over into PvE as much as other mechanic based solutions.