The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Tumri]

Haa ha ha.

 

1000DPS? Says guy whose class can do 10k damage in 1 gcd.

 

Yah, when we take low damage of sorcs statistically it is 1000DPS.

 

Hey, if we nurf burst on marauders/sentinels by 50% and raise burst on sorcs 200%, statustically nothing changed so you have no reason to complain, amirite?

 

So using of anegdotal arbitrary numbers is now proof of something? lol

 

Armor > bubblw, and most of classes get their own bubble anyway.

 

facepalm.jpg

 

If you can show me a Marauder that can do 10k damage in 1 GCD I will delete my character and quit the game.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri

[Rallic]

No, my highest valor character is a sorcerer and I do far better on it than on my scoundrel or marauder despite putting in a lot less effort into playing it.

 

I'm just being realistic here, sorcerers are just extremely easy to do well on. It's not a l2p issue, the class is just overpowered.

 

Might you just suck at the scoundrel marauder . I'm betting you do.

I do better with my assassin.then my sorc by far . I eat sorcs like nothing , but then o own most scoundrels and marauders to as most can't play then worth a ****.

[GrandMike]

facepalm.jpg

 

If you can show me a Marauder that can do 10k damage in 1 GCD I will delete my character and quit the game.

 

Hey, im just throwing arbitrary numbers around like you.

 

See how stoopid it is? rofl

[_Flin_]

When comparing Sorcerer to Commando...

Sorcerer is just hands down better in everything.

 

- Sorc Healer > Combat Medic

- Sorc Lightning / Hybrid > Gunnery

- Sorc Madness > Assault

 

This is with a class that has identical roles.

So if someone reads this and thinks about rolling commando... Don't. Go Sorc/Sage. You do the same, just better.

[Vales]

When comparing Sorcerer to Commando...

Sorcerer is just hands down better in everything.

 

- Sorc Healer > Combat Medic

- Sorc Lightning / Hybrid > Gunnery

- Sorc Madness > Assault

 

This is with a class that has identical roles.

So if someone reads this and thinks about rolling commando... Don't. Go Sorc/Sage. You do the same, just better.

 

I loled...

[Aidank]

What level and what valor rank?

 

In what way are they overpowered? what abilities do they have that can't be countered?

 

I'm still only valor 50, but I've spent most of my time levelling other characters (sent & scoundrel) because of how bored I got of my sorc. I rarely if ever play it anymore, only if one of my friends really wants to play.

 

And there is a ton that contributes to the class being overpowered, it's not like scoundrels that had one glaringly obvious problem (Shoot first) . We've got extremely easily applied damage, it's not exceptionally bursty but it's very high considering it's sustained.

 

we've got the best mobility in the game, we've got the best crowd control in the game, we've also pretty much got the best AoE in the game, we've got the best self heals of and dps class in the game, and we've got no real glaring weaknesses

 

Now that said, any of those on their own wouldn't be a problem. If we had crappy mobility the AoE damage wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue, if we didn't have as much crowd control, the dps spec heals wouldn't be overpowered, but there's no real issue with the class.

 

For instance, marauders are really lacking in the CC department, scoundrels are really lacking in the mobility department, but sorcerers don't really have any mechanics problems. They're not squishy, they don't have low damage, and they aren't crippled by interrupts. It's just too solid of a class overall.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Aidank

[Vales]

Sorry, but you just might have to try playing one, level to 50 and gear it up. Then compare it to your other champion geared characters and you'd know it's not a L2P issue.

 

EDIT: and please dont pretend this is somehow a hard task to do, it's so ridiculously easy to level up and gear up in this game.

 

Im leveling up 4 more ACs at the moment, Scoundrel, Sent, Guardian and Commando at around level 20 and slowly going up.

 

Still do not see where they are oh so up compared to Sorc/Sage.

[THorsblood]

 

Try owning it up as a low level guardian/juggernaut in pvp...LOL.

 

I did once was Civil War, i was lvl 15 and it was 4 am so i was being a die hard try hard VS half asleep people... basically the only way for me to get top anything at this stage lol:jawa_redface:

[GrandMike]

I'm still only valor 50, but I've spent most of my time levelling other characters (sent & scoundrel) because of how bored I got of my sorc. I rarely if ever play it anymore, only if one of my friends really wants to play.

 

And there is a ton that contributes to the class being overpowered, it's not like scoundrels that had one glaringly obvious problem (Shoot first) . We've got extremely easily applied damage, it's not exceptionally bursty but it's very high considering it's sustained.

 

we've got the best mobility in the game, we've got the best crowd control in the game, we've also pretty much got the best AoE in the game, we've got the best self heals of and dps class in the game, and we've got no real glaring weaknesses

 

Now that said, any of those on their own wouldn't be a problem. If we had crappy mobility the AoE damage wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue, if we didn't have as much crowd control, the dps spec heals wouldn't be overpowered, but there's no real issue with the class.

 

For instance, marauders are really lacking in the CC department, scoundrels are really lacking in the mobility department, but sorcerers don't really have any mechanics problems. They're not squishy, they don't have low damage, and they aren't crippled by interrupts. It's just too solid of a class overall.

 

You forgot that sorc:

 

crits for 10k on any skill they use

every heal heals them to full

throw 150k bubbles around

get 1 medal just for joining WZ (conspiracy by devs)

can perma stun everyone indefinately

Edited February 16, 2012 by GrandMike

[Vales]

I'm still only valor 50, but I've spent most of my time levelling other characters (sent & scoundrel) because of how bored I got of my sorc. I rarely if ever play it anymore, only if one of my friends really wants to play.

 

And there is a ton that contributes to the class being overpowered, it's not like scoundrels that had one glaringly obvious problem (Shoot first) . We've got extremely easily applied damage, it's not exceptionally bursty but it's very high considering it's sustained.

 

we've got the best mobility in the game, we've got the best crowd control in the game, we've also pretty much got the best AoE in the game, we've got the best self heals of and dps class in the game, and we've got no real glaring weaknesses

 

Now that said, any of those on their own wouldn't be a problem. If we had crappy mobility the AoE damage wouldn't have been nearly as big an issue, if we didn't have as much crowd control, the dps spec heals wouldn't be overpowered, but there's no real issue with the class.

 

For instance, marauders are really lacking in the CC department, scoundrels are really lacking in the mobility department, but sorcerers don't really have any mechanics problems. They're not squishy, they don't have low damage, and they aren't crippled by interrupts. It's just too solid of a class overall.

 

No glaring weakness?

 

Like no decent way to come back from getting oof unless heal speccdd and it still kills them unless they get a procc from Healing Trance.

Main nuke being a super easy to interupt 3 second channel, two times longer than Tracer missle which leads to garantueed follow ups which also hits for low amounts (600/900 on crit per tick is srs bsnss)

Burst completely dependant on a 30% procc and a crit from Weaken Mind otherwise close to nonexistant?

Low single target burst?

Easy to disable part of the burst via removing Weaken Mind?

Sprint easily countered by any slow/root/stun/mess?

Most CC breaking on a single point of damage?

One of the slowest effective heals?

Worst Dispel since most CC effects are physical/tech and not mental/force?

Lowest armor class with only one decent shield buff to compensate in part?

No practically usable resource free attack/heal? And do not even mention Saber Strike if you do not want me to go laughing hard at you.

 

Try again.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vales

[PloGreen]

How many people play as 60+ valor ranked sage or sorc in this thread?

 

How many people actually understand the mechanics of these classes?

 

Reading most of this thread I have to conclude most of the sorc are op crowd are just looking for excuses as to why they cannot beat the sage or sorc, with the exception of the op, who at least formulates a decent argument.

 

Strongest ability vs a sorc is interrupt. All of our abilities can be countered. There is one big huge learn to play issue here. But some of you just cannot see that you need to learn your classes and their strengths and limitations. You remind me of the types at work that sit complaining about what others get paid.

 

Look at your class, read it's abilities, use your environment, use your stun AT THE RIGHT TIME, interrupt tele throw, root force speed, interrupt long casting heals, focus the wizard down.

 

That's what good players do. Bad players point at a class and cry Nerf it "because I don't bind my keys, I don't use my abilities smartly, I let sorc and sage cast and move, Iam defeated before the fight has begun, they have better gear than me its not fair, Why don't I get a self-heal like them? Sorc have abundant cc, they have a bubble like a paladin, they can heal and dps at the same time. They are immortal, unkillable (I have no gear and 23 valor rank at 50).

They do 5k burst crits whilst healing, solving a rubix cube, and inventing a cure for cancer.

Etc.

 

Or maybe you just need to accept you aren't that good, and some good players will excel with sorc and kick the crap out of you because you are not very good?

 

Because the thing is there are players that play other classes, do really well against sorc and sage and they are not complaining. So explain that?

Edited February 16, 2012 by PloGreen

[GrandMike]

How many people play as 60+ valor ranked sage or sorc in this thread?

 

How many people actually understand the mechanics of these classes?

 

I do lol. Not one of these "nurf because im a baddie" people do. It shows. Most of them are in 1-49 bracket.

[da_krall]

That's not what I said, dude. I said the damage is fine. Its their utility in huttball I don't like. Read my post and you'll see what I mean. In combat Sprint, shield and AOE KNOCKBACK on 10 or 15 sec CD makes them kings of Huttball...

 

Ok your happy with their low damage, funny that......sounds more and more like the whiners dont like sorc running away as it spoils their fun and their free kill.

[BambulaGTS]

Except all interrupts are on **** cooldowns (better one - talented powertech/vanguard 6 sec with 2 talent points), probably use resourse (ammo/energy etc.), and lock ONE ability instead of locking school/silencing.

 

Rest is "fine"

Edited February 16, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[Vales]

How many people play as 60+ valor ranked sage or sorc in this thread?

 

How many people actually understand the mechanics of these classes?

 

Reading most of this thread I have to conclude most of the sorc are op crowd are just looking for excuses as to why they cannot beat the sage or sorc, with the exception of the op, who at least formulates a decent argument.

 

Strongest ability vs a sorc is interrupt. All of our abilities can be countered. There is one big huge learn to play issue here. But some of you just cannot see that you need to learn your classes and their strengths and limitations. You remind me of the types at work that sit complaining about what others get paid.

 

Look at your class, read it's abilities, use your environment, use your stun AT THE RIGHT TIME, interrupt tele throw, root force speed, interrupt long casting heals, focus the wizard down.

 

That's what good players do. Bad players point at a class and cry Nerf it "because I don't bind my keys, I don't use my abilities smartly, I let sorc and sage cast and move, Iam defeated before the fight has begun, they have better gear than me its not fair, Why don't I get a self-heal like them? Sorc have abundant cc, they have a bubble like a paladin, they can heal and dps at the same time. They are immortal, unkillable (I have no gear and 23 valor rank at 50).

They do 5k burst crits whilst healing, solving a rubix cube, and inventing a cure for cancer.

Etc.

 

Or maybe you just need to accept you aren't that good, and some good players will excel with sorc and kick the crap out of you because you are not very good?

 

Because the thing is there are players that play other classes, do really well against sorc and sage and they are not complaining. So explain that?

 

Well Sage/Sorc is not the only op class!

Just Juggers/Guards/Sents/Maras/Shadow/Assas/Powertech/Vanguard/Commando/Merc are op too!

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vales

[da_krall]

The Sorc does a lot of "minor" dmg, has some CC's, can heal. What is all the QQ over nerfing them? They are good in Hutball, decent in the other two and will be non existant if arena's come out. 1v1 they are a joke vs. BH, OP, Melee if similar gear and players. They have no burst dmg and a 2 min. CC breaker.

 

Maybe you should wait until real PvP comes out before you start these OP Hutball threads. There is no way in hell that anything but a pure heal spec Sorc will be viable for good arena teams.

 

+1 (5char)

[Aidank]

No glaring weakness?

 

Like no decent way to come back from getting oof?

No real way to go OOF either. The class has the easiest resource in the game to manage, it's never been a problem for me.

Main nuke being a super easy to interupt 3 second channel, two times longer than Tracer missle which leads to garantueed follow ups which also hits for low amounts (600/900 on crit is srs bsnss)

No school lockouts, if you get interrupted after 2 ticks then you didn't even waste a GCD, the class is hardly even effected by interrupts

Burst completely dependant on a 30% procc otherwise close to nonexistant?

a 30% proc that has a chance to proc 4 times in 3 seconds.

Low single target burst?

The single target burst isn't very high, but in hybrid you can chain lightning -> death field for up to 9k combined(At least pre-surge nerf, I haven't tried bursting since then) This is hardly worth complaining over

Easy to disable part of the burst via removing Weaken Mind?

it takes 1 gcd to remove, and 1 gcd to apply... it's got no cooldown, removing it is hardly a viable strategy.

Sprint easily countered by any slow/root/stun/mess?

it lasts 2 seconds, gcds in this game are 1.5 seconds. If you use it after one of their attacks you're GAURENTEED to get at least 75% of it's worth.

Most CC breaking on a signle point of damage?

You mean like every other mezz in the game?

Slowest effective heal?

you misspelled strongest

Worst Dispel since most CC effects are physical/tech and not mental/force?

You realize the majority of classes don't even get a dispel right? Complaining that yours isn't the best in the game is absurd.

Lowest armor class with only on decent shield to off set in part?

Now we're just going in circles, both me and tum have posted how much relative mitigation the shield provides in comparison to armor, Sorcerers have some of the best survivability in the game.

No decent resource free attack/heal? and do not even mention Saber Strike if you do not want me to go laughing hard at you.

Because you should never run out of resource anyways, and if you DO you've always got consumption just in case.

 

Try again.

Everything you listed are just problems every other class in the game has, or things that sorcerers aren't the very best in the game at, but still better than average. You can't be the best at everything, but being the best at most things is what makes sorcerers overpowered. Edited February 16, 2012 by Aidank

[da_krall]

Spot on OP and cheers.

 

I love the comparison to Marauder/Sent which has very little utility outside of group buffs and then comparable DPS with weak CC. Marauders/Sents are FORCED to 31 point spec to be viable at all. Either BW needs to make us all have some hybrid spec potential (eg moving precision slash down to tier 3 or what have you) or they need to make all classes be 31 point talent classes. If only some classes have access to viable hybrids those hybrids CANNOT be more powerful that going 31 points deep. Great post, great points, great solutions.

 

I usually eat sorcs for breakfast, but have always been jelly of their hybrid abilities and the complete lack in my class. They dominate huttball as everyone knows. If more top tier players played sorcs then it would be clear how OP they are. Luckily baddies flock to the sorc so most are very, very killable especially for my scissors to their paper class. That said the most feared opponents on my server are all hybrid sorcs. They just have top shelf players behind them and the CC/DPS combo is unbeatable in the most skilled players hands.

 

Yawn.......more stupidity;

 

"I never have any problems with sorc but they need nerfs"

"Only bad players play sorc when a good player uses them they are unstoppable"

 

Yawn

Yawn

Yawn

[Aidank]

How many people play as 60+ valor ranked sage or sorc in this thread?

 

How many people actually understand the mechanics of these classes?

 

Reading most of this thread I have to conclude most of the sorc are op crowd are just looking for excuses as to why they cannot beat the sage or sorc, with the exception of the op, who at least formulates a decent argument.

 

Strongest ability vs a sorc is interrupt. All of our abilities can be countered. There is one big huge learn to play issue here. But some of you just cannot see that you need to learn your classes and their strengths and limitations. You remind me of the types at work that sit complaining about what others get paid.

 

Look at your class, read it's abilities, use your environment, use your stun AT THE RIGHT TIME, interrupt tele throw, root force speed, interrupt long casting heals, focus the wizard down.

 

That's what good players do. Bad players point at a class and cry Nerf it "because I don't bind my keys, I don't use my abilities smartly, I let sorc and sage cast and move, Iam defeated before the fight has begun, they have better gear than me its not fair, Why don't I get a self-heal like them? Sorc have abundant cc, they have a bubble like a paladin, they can heal and dps at the same time. They are immortal, unkillable (I have no gear and 23 valor rank at 50).

They do 5k burst crits whilst healing, solving a rubix cube, and inventing a cure for cancer.

Etc.

 

Or maybe you just need to accept you aren't that good, and some good players will excel with sorc and kick the crap out of you because you are not very good?

 

Because the thing is there are players that play other classes, do really well against sorc and sage and they are not complaining. So explain that?

 

So If I play for another 12 hours or so and get 10 more valor ranks, i'll suddenly understand the classes mechanics better and realize that I don't do better on my sorc than any other character because It's overpowered, I just do better on my sorc than any other character because... I'm a better player than I realized?

 

 

Solid argument there skippy.

[Vales]

No real way to go OOF either. The class has the easiest resource in the game to manage, it's never been a problem for me.

No school lockouts, if you get interrupted after 2 ticks then you didn't even waste a GCD, the class is hardly even effected by interrupts

a 30% proc that has a chance to proc 4 times in 3 seconds.

The single target burst isn't very high, but in hybrid you can chain lightning -> death field for up to 9k combined(At least pre-surge nerf, I haven't tried bursting since then) This is hardly worth complaining over

it takes 1 gcd to remove, and 1 gcd to apply... it's got no cooldown, removing it is hardly a viable strategy.

it lasts 2 seconds, gcds in this game are 1.5 seconds. If you use it after one of their attacks you're GAURENTEED to get at least 75% of it's worth.

You mean like every other mezz in the game?

you misspelled strongest

You realize the majority of classes don't even get a dispel right? Complaining that yours isn't the best in the game is absurd.

Now we're just going in circles, both me and tum have posted how much relative mitigation the shield provides in comparison to armor, Sorcerers have some of the best survivability in the game.

Because you should never run out of resource anyways, and if you DO you've always got consumption just in case.

 

Everything you listed are just problems every other class in the game has, or things that sorcerers aren't the very best in the game at, but still better than average. You can't be the best at everything, but being the best at most things is what makes sorcerers overpowered.

 

1.) No real way to go oof if the opponent does not focus you. Again you go oof if you get trained and cannot spam TK Throw/Lightning. Proven to you already once.

2.) Um maybe stop being bad and lockout after 2.5 seconds but maybe after 0.5-1 second? Even bad player like me can do that. If bads like me can do that what are people who cannot? Terribads?

Also the point is that without TK Throw/Lightning there is no way he can conserve his force nor can he setup a noticable burst.

Sure what can he use after an interupt and 4-6 seconds unusable main damage tool?

Disturbance? Lol

Project/Shock? Lol

Deathfield/FiB? Lol

Yeah sure thing buddy.

3.) If everything crits. Which is rarely the case and others can do much higher burst in the same time with less reliance on proccs or setups.

4.) And why are the mezz of a Sorc op and the mezz of other classes not?

5.) Conviently leaving out that Consumption/Noble Sacrifice have a terrible HP/Force ratio plus killing your natural regen AND yourself. I wonder why.

6.) Sorceres have the worst survivabilty if they are caught flat footed. The shield does close to nothing if you are stunned and cannot kite any class with more mitigation can survive that much better.

But of course it is convinent to assume Sorc always gets away and enemies never catch up or in other words you construct best case for Sorc and worst Sorc's for his enemies just to make it appear you had any sort of an argument.

Hipocrite.

7.) I compared the Sorc to those who do get a Dispel and it is two other ACs who get it. Furthermore this is a team game and any good team will capitalize on Mercs/Scoundrels having a better Dispel than Sorc/Sage. Likewise Static Barrier/Force Armor are castable on others so YOU benefit just as much from it. Unless you run pug only but that is your problem if you do not play this as a group game but 1 vs rest of the enemy pug.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Vales

[GrandMike]

So If I play for another 12 hours or so and get 10 more valor ranks, i'll suddenly understand the classes mechanics better and realize that I don't do better on my sorc than any other character because It's overpowered, I just do better on my sorc than any other character because... I'm a better player than I realized?

 

 

Solid argument there skippy.

 

No, it seems you will never understand. Make merc/commando. Friendly advice.

[Vales]

It is funny that people try to "measure" how "successful" they are with a class via the scoreboard. Shows they are clueless.

[Aidank]

1.) No real way to go oof if the opponent does not focus you. Again you go oof if you get trained and cannot spam TK Throw/Lightning. Proven to you already once.

You didn't prove anything, I posted all the numbers, it's practically impossible to go OOF in under 30 seconds unless you're playing absolutely terribly.

 

And even then, unless you're playing against a annhi marauder or pyrotech you'll still be able to spam FL at least 1/2 the time because lockouts are 1/2 the length of the interrupt cooldown.

 

Interrupts are a joke in this game.

2.) Um maybe stop being bad and lockout after 2.5 seconds but maybe after 0.5-1 second? Even bad player like me can do that. If bads like me can do that what are people who cannot? Terribads?

Stop being bad and don't spam force lightning on people in melee range? Problem solved?

 

Kiting on a sorcerer isn't difficult, getting off force lightning isn't a problem, even when you are being focused.

 

 

And EVEN THEN, if you're having this big of a problem getting FL off, which is a problem nobody else is having by the way, have you ever once considered maybe fake casting?

Also the point is that without TK Throw/Lightning there is no way he can conserve his force nor can he setup a noticable burst.

You need to be spamming instants non stop for over 30 seconds to run out of force in this game, if you're having force problems you're absolutely terrible. I'm not sure what to tell you past that, a dps sorcerer in this game shouldn't be having any force problems outside of rare situations like extremely long fights where you don't get a chance to regen.

Sure what can he use after an interupt and 4-6 seconds unusable main damage tool?

Disturbance? Lol

Project/Shock? Lol

Deathfield/FiB? Lol

Yeah sure thing buddy.

rolling dots, project on a 6 sec cd, if they've already wasted their interrupt you can even hardcast crushing darkness & Lightning strike / chain lightning. Doing damage while you're locked out of force lightning isn't a problem in this game.

3.) If everything crits. Which is rarely the case and others can do much higher burst in the same time with less reliance on proccs or setups.

A. No, to burst that hard pretty much every class has to rely a lot more on procs and setups. one force lightning to get the instant proc and then popping an adrenal hardly constitutes a lot of setup.

 

B. I never said sorcerers had the best burst in the game, they don't, their burst isn't what's overpowered, but their burst is still respectable .

Edited February 16, 2012 by Aidank

[_Flin_]

Look at your class, read it's abilities, use your environment, use your stun AT THE RIGHT TIME, interrupt tele throw, root force speed, interrupt long casting heals, focus the wizard down.

 

You seem to regard all others as cave men.

 

We know our classes. And many of us know that if filling the same role (DD / heal), the sorc is better.

 

And telling us, how squishy you are, and how fragile, is ridiculous when we see those BM sorcs every day in the warzones, being not squishy at all.

 

Is the sorc overpowered? It depends on your definition.

Is it clearly the best advanced pvp class of all? Yes. Especially when you take into account how Warzones are made and how they play into the sorcs abilities.

Is it invincible? No.

[FodderofCannon]

Really we are still arguing about this?

 

Sorc(and sage) is the LOL EZ mode class of this game.

 

I don't think we need to nerf them, because if you play one you need the handicap.

 

Personally i think its a good idea to have a handicap class. Its like gear, got to give lesser skilled people a sense of "power" so they keep re-subing. Problem is skilled people still play them and then they are OP as hell. If you are skilled you should shelve your Sorc in interest of game balance, and heck if your that skilled why are you so insecure to play the EZ mode class? Play something harder.

 

 

I played one till like level 22. It was so easy I couldn't bring myself to play it any longer. I play PvP to have a challenge, and the sorc was just absurdly easy. Kiting is soooo easy against melee..

 

At 50 they are no different. In particular if you get more that 2-3 of them together they are tougher than tank/healer combos. An army of just sorcs would destroy any other mix of class combos, guaranteed.