Fomby Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have to disagree, once you pop the bubble a sage is pretty easy to kill. Unless they are gaurded by a tank. In which case, you need better team work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbb Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 That's how it should be in theory. In practice you can easily see that while they may (ha) not get on the field top dps, survival and utility, they do get 90% of each 3, while other classes only get a 100% in 1. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Bubble is op because it absorbs rather than mitigate, but even that is not the real issue. I have said it once and i will say it a thousand times, utility. The op actually has a rather good point about sorcs. Making a hybrid build you can get the best of all worlds without sacrificing anything. Even mercs have to sacrifice healing for dps or vice versa, a sorc has all the utility they need without sacrificing anything. I am not sure if you are serious or not.. Absorbs is just a keyword, force armor mitigates, if you dont think it does tell it to the sorcer who still gets hit for partial damage Armor is still better because it scales with damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 That's how it should be in theory. In practice you can easily see that while they may (ha) not get on the field top dps, survival and utility, they do get 90% of each 3, while other classes only get a 100% in 1. So this is not about balancing PVP, it is about balancing a scoreboard..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarlson Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You are not going to get 300k dps and 300k healing. You may get 100k healing or dmg depending on what your main focus was but that is hardly tops. I consistently get 75k healing medal as dps simply by using my bubble and occassional off heals which are sometimes difficult to do since it is a 3s cast time and the person often runs los. You will NOT be speccd to get 90% of your classes healing capacity, dps capacity and cc capacity. There are simply not enough points. You need minimum 13 points in corruption just to get force bending so you can heal moderately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agentbam Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry when Bioware can address the ANIMATION issues between a Sorc and Sage then things might be able to get fixed. If they don't and nerf the classes then it's game over! I'm really sick of bioware not listening to the Sage Forums and the problems with the class. Until then, this is a stupid thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry when Bioware can address the ANIMATION issues between a Sorc and Sage then things might be able to get fixed. If they don't and nerf the classes then it's game over! I'm really sick of bioware not listening to the Sage Forums and the problems with the class. Until then, this is a stupid thread. Very true, with a little skill any class can avoid several of our CCs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) So this is not about balancing PVP, it is about balancing a scoreboard..... There's always a scoreboard, either internal (for BW) or external (for all) 1. Define 2. Measure 3. Analyze 4. Improve 5. Control Anyway good to see you aren't refuting sorcerer wz scoreboard opness. Edited February 16, 2012 by sensiblepoast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) There's always a scoreboard, either internal (for BW) or external (for all) 1. Define 2. Measure 3. Analyze 4. Improve 5. Control Anyway good to see you aren't refuting sorcerer wz scoreboard opness. You have to define scoreboard OPness before I can agree or refute it.. Can they get decent healing metals, sure, but they only way they will be 90% on healing isnt any healers, not a dps spec. But this is true for all dps that can also heal...They still cant get protection so the 90% in all 3 catagory is plain false. Edited February 16, 2012 by Lormif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulman Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's safe to say that I'm one of the top 2-3 Marauders on my server. I haven't met another Marauder that has beaten my damage more than I beat theirs and I use PvE gear with 0 expertise in total. https://imgur.com/a/Kk2Fd#0[/color] Seriously? You chose to gimp yourself by not using the proper gear, and then complain on the forums other classes are OP? It's a lot like chosing not to put on any pants and then complaining gee it's too cold in here, we need to turn up the heat! I mean really? 0 expertise. I've posted different responces as others have but most of which were ignored. I don't think there is any reasoning with you. You've already already formulated your opinion. Based off of your extensive experience of never playing the class and not using any expertise gear. If you look at the big picture of this game class balance is the least of it's worries. They really need to fix a large number of things. The biggest being Ilum redesign, UI, all the bugs with queues and rewards. The game is dying already. If you want to twist the blade, by all means keep crying on the forums for nerfs. All that will happen is more and more players will leave. Maybe that's what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Seriously? You chose to gimp yourself by not using the proper gear, and then complain on the forums other classes are OP? It's a lot like chosing not to put on any pants and then complaining gee it's too cold in here, we need to turn up the heat! I mean really? 0 expertise. I've posted different responces as others have but most of which were ignored. I don't think there is any reasoning with you. You've already already formulated your opinion. Based off of your extensive experience of never playing the class and not using any expertise gear. If you look at the big picture of this game class balance is the least of it's worries. They really need to fix a large number of things. The biggest being Ilum redesign, UI, all the bugs with queues and rewards. The game is dying already. If you want to twist the blade, by all means keep crying on the forums for nerfs. All that will happen is more and more players will leave. Maybe that's what you want. And even with no expertise he still gets that massive damage, while doing less damage to his opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Very true, with a little skill any class can avoid several of our CCs With a little skill a Sorcerer doesn't need overpowered CC. See what I did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 With a little skill a Sorcerer doesn't need overpowered CC. See what I did there? Yes, you based a very illogical statement off my logical statment..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 And even with no expertise he still gets that massive damage, while doing less damage to his opponents. We've already gone over this multiple times. If I do badly then I suck and the Sorcs in this thread tell me "L2P you're terrible". If I do well then you use that as an excuse to say "Sorcerers aren't OP, you do fine so why are you complaining?" The issue is an equally skilled Sorcerer is worth more than any other class in the game. That is not balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Yes, you based a very illogical statement off my logical statment..... How is your statement any more logical? Oh wait I know... It's because it supports YOUR argument and not mine. I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) How is your statement any more logical? Oh wait I know... It's because it supports YOUR argument and not mine. I see. My statement is more logical because it is talking about SAGES massive problem with ability delay.. It talks about the FACT that if when you see the animation for many of our INSTANT abilitys you can avoide it, and in the case of abilities with cooldowns remove it completely. For example foce wave, if when you see us doing our animation you can do any type of CC AFTER we start the cast of the INSTANT ability and interupt it, and even make the cooldown trigger without any use... Actually not sure a strawman, but it a logical fallacy. Edit: ahh that is right composition. Edited February 16, 2012 by Lormif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 My statement is more logical because it is talking about SAGES massive problem with ability delay.. It talks about the FACT that if when you see the animation for many of our INSTANT abilitys you can avoide it, and in the case of abilities with cooldowns remove it completely. For example foce wave, if when you see us doing our animation you can do any type of CC AFTER we start the cast of the INSTANT ability and interupt it, and even make the cooldown trigger without any use... Actually not sure a strawman, but it a logical fallacy. Just arguing the way you do: If the Sage had enough skill he could overcome it. Other classes need that animation delay so they can survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Just arguing the way you do: If the Sage had enough skill he could overcome it. Other classes need that animation delay so they can survive. Actually that is not how I argue at all. But nice try, keep it coming. How I argue is with numbers, such as how real armor mitigation is much better then force armor, cause it scales, and other facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kijthae Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 diagnosis: usual example of Caster-phobia that commonly exists in mmos . treatment: l2p A Caster-phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational. In the event the phobia cannot be avoided entirely the sufferer will endure the situation or object with marked distress and significant interference in social or occupational activities. The terms distress and impairment as defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV-TR) should also take into account the context of the sufferer's environment if attempting a diagnosis. The DSM-IV-TR states that if a phobic stimulus, whether it be an object or a social situation, is absent entirely in an environment - a diagnosis cannot be made. An example of this situation would be an individual who has a fear of mice (Suriphobia) but lives in an area devoid of mice. Even though the concept of mice causes marked distress and impairment within the individual, because the individual does not encounter mice in the environment no actual distress or impairment is ever experienced. Proximity and the degree to which escape from the phobic stimulus should also be considered. As the sufferer approaches a phobic stimulus, anxiety levels increase (e.g. as one gets closer to a snake, fear increases in ophidiophobia), and the degree to which escape of the phobic stimulus is limited and has the effect of varying the intensity of fear in instances such as riding an elevator (e.g. anxiety increases at the midway point between floors and decreases when the floor is reached and the doors open). Note: I dont play sorc/sage/mage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Actually that is not how I argue at all. But nice try, keep it coming. How I argue is with numbers, such as how real armor mitigation is much better then force armor, cause it scales, and other facts. Ok so armor scales. The problem with thinking of PvP damage like a constant stream as in PvE is that someone taking that sort of damage will simply die anyways. Getting piled is the only time you'd take enough damage in 20 seconds that 12-15% extra mitigation is more than a 3.5k bubble would provide. Keep in mind 30-40% of PvP damage is NOT kinetic/energy and will NOT be mitigated by armor. Lets math it out. Static Barrier Math(PvP) ------------------------- 16k+3.5k = 19.5k w/16% mitigation = L 16k+0 = 16k w/24% mitigation = M 16k+0 = 16k w/30% mitigation = H 20k damage(6k internal/elemental) in 20 seconds: L = 11,760(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 1740 health remaining M = 10,640(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = -640 health remaining H = 9,800(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 200 health remaining 40k damage(12k Internal/Elemental) in 20 seconds: L = 23,520(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -16,020 M = 21,280(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -17,280 H = 19,600(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -15,600 -------------------------- Now think about this for a second. When will you reasonably be taking 40k damage in 20 seconds? Keep in mind PvE DPS on a stationary target is around 1500DPS for most classes. In PvP you can reasonably expect a player to do ~1k DPS to a human target. For Sorcerers with a single bubble to have less mitigation than the Heavy armored classes with the most physical mitigation in the game two well geared players would need to beat on the Sorcerer for a full 20 seconds without interruption. If a Sorcerer manages to cast a second bubble from having one pre-cast prior to this happening then the Heavy armor is better at an astonishing 80k over 20 seconds. With this in mind it is safe to assume that Sorcerer light armor is more than made up for by Static Barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Ok so armor scales. The problem with thinking of PvP damage like a constant stream as in PvE is that someone taking that sort of damage will simply die anyways. Getting piled is the only time you'd take enough damage in 20 seconds that 12-15% extra mitigation is more than a 3.5k bubble would provide. Keep in mind 30-40% of PvP damage is NOT kinetic/energy and will NOT be mitigated by armor. Lets math it out. Static Barrier Math(PvP) ------------------------- 16k+3.5k = 19.5k w/16% mitigation = L 16k+0 = 16k w/24% mitigation = M 16k+0 = 16k w/30% mitigation = H 20k damage(6k internal/elemental) in 20 seconds: L = 11,760(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 1740 health remaining M = 10,640(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = -640 health remaining H = 9,800(Kinetic/Energy) + 6k(Internal/Elemental) = 200 health remaining 40k damage(12k Internal/Elemental) in 20 seconds: L = 23,520(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -16,020 M = 21,280(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -17,280 H = 19,600(Kinetic/Energy) + 12k(Internal/Elemental) = -15,600 -------------------------- Now think about this for a second. When will you reasonably be taking 40k damage in 20 seconds? Keep in mind PvE DPS on a stationary target is around 1500DPS for most classes. In PvP you can reasonably expect a player to do ~1k DPS to a human target. For Sorcerers with a single bubble to have less mitigation than the Heavy armored classes with the most physical mitigation in the game two well geared players would need to beat on the Sorcerer for a full 20 seconds without interruption. If a Sorcerer manages to cast a second bubble from having one pre-cast prior to this happening then the Heavy armor is better at an astonishing 80k over 20 seconds. With this in mind it is safe to assume that Sorcerer light armor is more than made up for by Static Barrier. Here is the problem your logic.. You assume all health in pvp is equal, when it is not, not even close. It can have more then a 3k variance among the classes. This is not a small over site, since armor scales with hps because you can survive longer to take more damage to be mitigated. In addition you assume that pvp damage is 30-40%, which it is much less especially for the spec you hate.. For example in the hybrid spec you hate so much 1/7th the damage is internal. Therefore you need to adjust your comparison of the sorc/2 other classes to show the differnce in both health and the 14% internal damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Every single other class/spec will have much higher internal damage. The Sorcerer hybrid is the ONLY popular spec that has mostly kinetic damage. It's not reasonable to completely redo the calculations like that. I'm not even taking Armor penetration into account and the second most popular PvP class has 55% armor penetration with Tracer Missile+Passive ArP(Mercenaries). 30% Internal/Elemental is an extremely reasonable estimate. In fact some classes have a lot more of their PvP damage not mitigated by armor. Why do you think there is so much discussion about Tank mitigation being pitiful in PvP? Their armor/shields do not mitigate Internal/Elemental is why. Your argument about varying health pools is hilariously biased. You're trying to twist the math in your favor by giving everyone different health pools. How exactly does a medium armor wearer automatically have higher health? Is there something preventing a Sorcerer from using the same mods as the other guy? It's impossible to reason with you if you're going to play the "lets put special conditions and limitations to ever possible scenario to skew the results in my favor" game. Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Every single other class/spec will have much higher internal damage. The Sorcerer hybrid is the ONLY popular spec that has mostly kinetic damage. It's not reasonable to completely redo the calculations like that. I'm not even taking Armor penetration into account and the second most popular PvP class has 55% armor penetration with Tracer Missile+Passive ArP(Mercenaries). 30% Internal/Elemental is an extremely reasonable estimate. In fact some classes have a lot more of their PvP damage not mitigated by armor. Why do you think there is so much discussion about Tank mitigation being pitiful in PvP? Their armor/shields do not mitigate Internal/Elemental is why. You're trying to twist the math in your favor by giving everyone different health pools. How exactly does a medium armor wearer automatically have higher health? Is there something preventing a Sorcerer from using the same mods as the other guy? It's impossible to reason with you if you're going to play the "lets put special conditions and limitations to ever possible scenario to skew the results in my favor" game. Actually I am paking very logical assumptions, full pvp gear. Also yes there is something preventing me from using the same mods, it is called stats. Str mods inherently have more endurance on them. Am I supposed to use mods not made for my class just to get my health up? So no, I am not staking hps to make my case stronger, the game does that for me. As for the damage discrepancy, you were the one that made the 2v1 comparison vs the sorc, not me, therefore again, it is you who needs to adjust the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Actually I am paking very logical assumptions, full pvp gear. Also yes there is something preventing me from using the same mods, it is called stats. Str mods inherently have more endurance on them. Am I supposed to use mods not made for my class just to get my health up? So no, I am not staking hps to make my case stronger, the game does that for me. As for the damage discrepancy, you were the one that made the 2v1 comparison vs the sorc, not me, therefore again, it is you who needs to adjust the math. 1. No they do not. All mods have the same endurance if they're the same type. At 25 it's Regular(48/29/37), Type A(61/37/11), and Type B(37/48/29). Some of the datamined mods are bugged but you can confirm this pattern in-game. Lower level mods of the same type have the same ratio but lesser overall stats. Proof: http://www.torhead.com/item/7KGWxhz/advanced-aptitude-mod-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/82swZiD/advanced-deft-mod-25 Enhancements are obviously the same for everyone since it's all secondary stats. Armoring at rank 25 is either 51/55(tanking) or 61/44(healing/DPS). Proof: http://www.torhead.com/item/a34hSps/advanced-commando-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/2k3yxhO/advanced-reflex-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/flFdT4A/advanced-guardian-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/gXfHZo8/advanced-might-armoring-25 ----- You have no grounds for saying there is a difference in health between different armor types. ------ 2. What does that other scenario have to do with the math NOW? ------ 3. PvP gear actually skews the damage taken in favor of the Sorcerer since the 40k damage comparison would turn into a 36k damage comparison, the 20k damage comparison would turn into an 18k damage comparison, etc. Edited February 16, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) 1. No they do not. All mods have the same endurance if they're the same type. At 25 it's Regular(48/29/37), Type A(61/37/11), and Type B(37/48/29). Some of the datamined mods are bugged but you can confirm this pattern in-game. Lower level mods of the same type have the same ratio but lesser overall stats. Proof: http://www.torhead.com/item/7KGWxhz/advanced-aptitude-mod-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/82swZiD/advanced-deft-mod-25 Enhancements are obviously the same for everyone since it's all secondary stats. Armoring at rank 25 is either 51/55(tanking) or 61/44(healing/DPS). Proof: http://www.torhead.com/item/a34hSps/advanced-commando-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/2k3yxhO/advanced-reflex-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/flFdT4A/advanced-guardian-armoring-25 http://www.torhead.com/item/gXfHZo8/advanced-might-armoring-25 ----- You have no grounds for saying there is a difference in health between different armor types. ------ 2. What does that other scenario have to do with the math NOW? ------ 3. PvP gear actually skews the damage taken in favor of the Sorcerer since the 40k damage comparison would turn into a 36k damage comparison, the 20k damage comparison would turn into an 18k damage comparison, etc. So you are assuming I have access to high level PVE items, and you forget about things like offhands? Shoot even my battlemaster stuff has less end. This is just you yet again trying to fit your argument into a vary narrow scope and using a logical fallacy to make it seem like it covers the entirety. There is a reason when scientists do things like this they using controls. As for the comparison, you are stull using faulty numbers, and a 1 sided analogy.. Edited February 16, 2012 by Lormif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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