Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing

[matthewcreech]

Looking back at the start of this thread, where many Operatives/Scoundrels already felt the window had closed and unsubscribing was already happening, and now with the impending changes in 1.2 it doesn't appear that Bioware has satisfied the group that was on the fence.

 

I personally had shelved my Operative healer until they tuned things up a bit and rolled a Mercenary healer. This patch doesn't encourage me to keep leveling a Mercenary. This makes me wonder if the window is now to save Healing rather than just Op/Sc now?

 

If post-patch Operative healing is as impressive as early PTS reports indicate, how long will it last before Operatives get whacked again by the nerf bat?

[Ryemfoh]

a)we know operative healers are capable of doing content so you just nead to l2p. aside from the fact that sorcs are vastly better healers than you, if you still can heal content you are fine.

This is highly subjective, since you have no proof (on live content) that equally skilled and geared Sorc's are "vastly" (also subjective) better than their Operative counterparts.

 

Yes, there are simulations for Sorc, and HPE / HPCT / etc theoretical numbers for Operatives, but we haven't had any actual logs to compare real performance against until ~1 week ago.

 

There are definitely "deficiencies" when viewed in isolation (e.g. AoE healing ... though it seems not many people remember Vanilla Pally "AoE" was "Flash heal individual targets"), but this is simply evaluating a class on a single ability which is far from the big picture.

 

The only valid metric we had until the current PTR was: "is everyone alive" ... "Feelings" - even those of people who have played both classes - are not proof.

 

d)the whole oper/scoundrel community were upset with the way alacrity worked for them: no change at ll

I wasn't upset with the way Alacrity works ... sure it's not the power-house of WoW Haste (reducing GCD, speeding up HoT's, etc) but it has a fairly noticeable effect on burst, QoL and regen (through DS). I believe RuQu made an excellent post on the subject over at SithWarrior after giving it a bit more thought.

 

e)the whole scoundrel/operative community were upset that infusion is worthless as a spell due to high cost, TA requirement, and healing the same as KI (which BUILDS TA) just on a 0,5sec faster window: no changes at all

Personally I see the introduction of an additional TA as directly addressing this issue. My problem with KInf was never whether it is useful or not, it was always that I only had 1 TA to spare and had to choose how best to use it. Stacking TA to 3 means you can throw a quick KInf -> SP when you have some burst requirement.

 

g)DS, now 30%faster, you still have to spent 4 points to make it marginnaly useful

The 30% increase makes it highly likely that your Alacrity levels will push DS into the 2-ticks in 1 GCD range. This means at most crit levels you are virtually guaranteed 2 extra energy for a GCD clipped DS, and may even get 4 energy.

 

In closing, other than keeping everyone alive and finishing the content my only objective is to have fun. I don't care whether I could have read a book at the same time on a different class with the same outcome. I see no reason to play a game as time consuming as an MMO if it can't even keep my full attention.

 

[DISCLAIMER: I have not healed Operations on my Operative, but have on my Sorc. I don't see that as having any effect on the points in this post]

[Xaearth]

The only valid metric we had until the current PTR was: "is everyone alive" ... "Feelings" - even those of people who have played both classes - are not proof.

 

How about this one:

Most people who switched over to Sorc/Sage from Operative/Scoundrel have reported that their Sorc/Sage didn't need to be anywhere near as prepped in gear to complete the content without any problems.

 

At the very least, Sorcs/Sages were completing HM FPs in greens. When's the last time you saw another healer class do that with "no problems"?

[Endusima]

[DISCLAIMER: I have not healed Operations on my Operative, but have on my Sorc. I don't see that as having any effect on the points in this post]

 

"I talk about things I have never done but I don't see how that affects my arguments" -you

 

C'mon man, your talk about how Kolto Infusion is gonna be good now is just downright derp.

[CaptainApop]

The 30% increase makes it highly likely that your Alacrity levels will push DS into the 2-ticks in 1 GCD range. This means at most crit levels you are virtually guaranteed 2 extra energy for a GCD clipped DS, and may even get 4 energy.

 

 

You mean that 40 alacrity that I can't get rid of on my earpiece?

 

Also "virtually guarateed" is dumb thinking, it costs us four talent points for what is completely unreliable energy gain.

 

EDITED: Bad napkin math dun goofed.

Edited March 22, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Ryemfoh]

You mean that 40 alacrity that I can't get rid of on my earpiece?

 

Also "virtually guarateed" is dumb thinking, it costs us four talent points for what is completely unreliable energy gain.

 

EDITED: Bad napkin math dun goofed.

 

To get 2 ticks in 1 GCD we need 33% Alacrity. With 30% from the talent, and 4% from Lethality tree, we are already there. If you don't take the Alacrity from Lethality tree you'll need 82.5 Alacrity Rating to get the extra 3%. Whether you decide to get the extra 42.5 Rating you need or not is up to you.

 

At ~35% crit, talented DS has a 59% chance to crit. On 2 ticks the probability of it not getting any crits is something like 16%.

 

So maybe "virtually guaranteed" is a bit strong ... how about "more than likely" instead?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[Shroudveil]

This is highly subjective, since you have no proof (on live content) that equally skilled and geared Sorc's are "vastly" (also subjective) better than their Operative counterparts.

 

Yes, there are simulations for Sorc, and HPE / HPCT / etc theoretical numbers for Operatives, but we haven't had any actual logs to compare real performance against until ~1 week ago.

 

There are definitely "deficiencies" when viewed in isolation (e.g. AoE healing ... though it seems not many people remember Vanilla Pally "AoE" was "Flash heal individual targets"), but this is simply evaluating a class on a single ability which is far from the big picture.

 

The only valid metric we had until the current PTR was: "is everyone alive" ... "Feelings" - even those of people who have played both classes - are not proof.

 

 

I wasn't upset with the way Alacrity works ... sure it's not the power-house of WoW Haste (reducing GCD, speeding up HoT's, etc) but it has a fairly noticeable effect on burst, QoL and regen (through DS). I believe RuQu made an excellent post on the subject over at SithWarrior after giving it a bit more thought.

 

 

Personally I see the introduction of an additional TA as directly addressing this issue. My problem with KInf was never whether it is useful or not, it was always that I only had 1 TA to spare and had to choose how best to use it. Stacking TA to 3 means you can throw a quick KInf -> SP when you have some burst requirement.

 

 

The 30% increase makes it highly likely that your Alacrity levels will push DS into the 2-ticks in 1 GCD range. This means at most crit levels you are virtually guaranteed 2 extra energy for a GCD clipped DS, and may even get 4 energy.

 

In closing, other than keeping everyone alive and finishing the content my only objective is to have fun. I don't care whether I could have read a book at the same time on a different class with the same outcome. I see no reason to play a game as time consuming as an MMO if it can't even keep my full attention.

 

[DISCLAIMER: I have not healed Operations on my Operative, but have on my Sorc. I don't see that as having any effect on the points in this post]

 

the differance in current patch between operative and sorcerer is vast.

 

i don't theorycraft, i actually have both and i have been raiding with both (oper at full rakata is severly worse healer than sorcerer with full columni gear, and that is without exploiting the double proc)

 

i don't care about any of your comparisons with wow classes. in swtor, in current patch, operatives have way worse regen/energy without having any plus. they have the same mobility, they have way worse aoe, and they have 0 utility. if you have tried nightmare operations as a healing operative you would instantly understand the differance between sorc and operative, and no, it is NOT hps, it is everything else we are lacking.

 

Kinf will be more usable now due to 3rd TA, i agree on that. it is still better to use your TA for surgical probe though, you gain nothing sort of ~0,4sec if you use Kinf over KI and you lose 2 TA (you would gain 1 TA if you would have casted KI, you lose 1 if you use Kinf).

 

I do enjoy my operative more, it is a different class than the cookie cutter sorc, but all things considered he is missing TOOLS , not hps.

 

alacrity only works when you outdamage the encounter, this is what all math proves. this is beyond stupid design. i too have some alacrity on my gear, and i like the effects, i don't care how and why it worked in other games, but in this game it doesn't make sense to have only 2 of my spells being affected by the stat that is on every piece of my gear. my solution would be to have it modify the time between hot ticks, this way it would benefit 4/6of my healing spells, making it a good stat choice instead of the garbage that is now usable only after you hit the soft caps of all other stats.

 

current customization goes something like that: gain new gear->farm new enchancments till you hit caps->when you are in top gear swap enhancments again to fill in with alacrity if you have an easy time to heal the encounter... once again, it is not a %fault, it is a design flaw. there is no reason to have it affect channels and not affect hots, when 2 of my spells are hots, another one is instant and only 1 is cast time +1channel that is barely used

 

30%faster DS is still way underpowered. the problem with DS isn't the cast time alone. it is the cast time+hps. channeling 300hps for 1.5sec is still 450healing, when a single SP is 2100hp in the same time frame (500%better)

 

sure, it gives back 11-12energy in this time frame when SP gives 9, the differance is minimal, it needs to have something OTHER to make up for it, maybe providing a 10sec buff of some kind to the healed target (a unique buff would also offer some kind of utility that we also have a total lack of it)

 

instead.. they put only number tweeks.

 

yeah, the changes sucked, and unlike you, who only like to come here and post on your 4man experience, i actually use this toon for nightmare modes.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Shroudveil

[Ryemfoh]

the differance in current patch between operative and sorcerer is vast.

 

i don't theorycraft, i actually have both and i have been raiding with both (oper at full rakata is severly worse healer than sorcerer with full columni gear, and that is without exploiting the double proc)

This is still feelings. I respect your feelings, I really do, but you can't claim that it is proof. I do agree that there are a few simple things that BW could do which would have a great impact on PVE without too many PVP consequence (which seems to be the root of their balancing issues) - like adding a target buff to DS / SP / whatever as many have mentioned.

 

i don't care about any of your comparisons with wow classes.

The reason for mentioning Paladins was that I see Operatives as having a similar role in ToR (aside from the numerous buffs of course ) In Vanilla, Pally's made great tank healers but poor raid healers because they had no AoE but were really efficient and had some big heals for emergencies. In ToR, Operatives are really efficient and can do fairly decent burst in a pinch, but aren't as good as Sorcerers at raid healing. FYI I don't really agree with this design.

 

Kinf will be more usable now due to 3rd TA, i agree on that. it is still better to use your TA for surgical probe though, you gain nothing sort of ~0,4sec if you use Kinf over KI and you lose 2 TA (you would gain 1 TA if you would have casted KI, you lose 1 if you use Kinf).

KInf and KInj are both effected equally by Alacrity (since Alacrity decreases the GCD for abilities with 1.5s cast/channel time), so it will always be a 0.5s gain using KInf. That's 33.3% with 0 Alacrity, and more as Alacrity increases. It also costs 5 energy (20%) less than KInj - although with the added regen from the longer cast time this comes down to just 2 energy (8%).

 

If we're diligent about tracking TA procs from KP, I suspect KInj would get a lot more love as an efficient way to burn a TA just before you're expecting another proc (so replacing 1 KInj with 1 KInf every 6 - 8s). Over 5 mins this results in approx 37 KInj casts and saves around 90 energy. You're not losing a TA since by casting KInf you risk losing the TA proc. Does it take more micro-management of a class that already has to micro-manage their energy system? Hells yes, but hard doesn't mean it's not good!

 

I do enjoy my operative more, it is a different class than the cookie cutter sorc, but all things considered he is missing TOOLS , not hps.

I also love my Op, and so far I've felt effective with him (in the content I've faced as healer). With the Conc nerfs and Med buffs, I will probably be seeing a lot more in Heal spec post 1.2.

 

I agree that additional raid utility would be nice, but I'm also happy that not every class brings the same thing to the table. If what I bring is great heals, efficiency, mobility and survivability, that is fine with me.

 

alacrity only works when you outdamage the encounter, this is what all math proves. this is beyond stupid design. i too have some alacrity on my gear, and i like the effects, i don't care how and why it worked in other games, but in this game it doesn't make sense to have only 2 of my spells being affected by the stat that is on every piece of my gear. my solution would be to have it modify the time between hot ticks, this way it would benefit 4/6of my healing spells, making it a good stat choice instead of the garbage that is now usable only after you hit the soft caps of all other stats.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "outdamage".

 

KInj, KInf and DS all get the full benefit from Alacrity, so having some on your gear is not a bad thing. I agree that it would be nice if it effected HoT's, but having heals land ~0.2s faster is also extremely valuable.

 

A common misconception is that decreasing your cast time translates into to burning through energy faster, but unless you're in a heavy burst / chain-cast scenario this is simply not true. The time saved can be spent positioning or just standing idle. It also takes some of the pain out of being stuck at low energy with AP on cooldown through faster DS. Basically Alacrity is a QoL stat, and from the sounds of things you're using it as such once you're confident your raid and gear can handle the loss of surge (this is the same way I use it on my Sorc)

 

30%faster DS is still way underpowered. the problem with DS isn't the cast time alone. it is the cast time+hps. channeling 300hps for 1.5sec is still 450healing, when a single SP is 2100hp in the same time frame (500%better)

DS isn't meant to be used as HPS, it's a regen ability (although more HPS would certainly take the sting out). In the same way, Rifle Shot isn't meant to be used for DPS for the other 2 specs. I don't really think we should have a free regen ability without any consequences ... although the way you've described it, the Merc regen ability is far more desirable in this respect.

 

SP is definitely the better choice if you have > ~65e and a TA, or there is someone who needs the 2100hp now rather than in 1 GCD, which I'm sure is a fairly common occurrence in NM Operations, or if you're at risk of losing a TA proc.

 

But post 1.2, DS will be extremely effective at getting us out of the low-energy hole in those situations situations where we don't have AP up. Sure, at max regen the difference sounds small 11 vs 9 (22%), but in the mid bracket it's 8 vs 6 (33%), and in the low bracket 6.5 vs 4.5 (44% - if I remember the lowest regen values right). DS is simply the best way to get out of this hole. (I have managed to regen out of the middle tier using SP only on a sub-30% tank, but I'm fairly sure that this 4-man experience holds no weight in NM Ops )

[RuQu]

The testing is still going on, but if the Sorc nerf hit anywhere as hard as the Merc nerf (I don't think it did, but some Sorcs are claiming it is far worse. Testing will tell...), then Operatives will be far superior.

 

Can you currently heal Jarg and Sorno in KP on nightmare with Operative healers? On PTS a Merc can't. A guild that had it on farm had to drop down to Hard Mode to get past them with Mercs.

 

What Shroud meant by "outdamage" was that if a boss does X damage over the course of a Y second long fight, your HPS needs to already be X/Y for Alacrity to be much good. If you are exactly at X/Y, you are chain casting at your max sustained level, and are resource limited. Any more HPS would see you resource starved more than your cooldowns could compensate for. Alacrity negatively affects your regen while casting, which is compensated for by more time for free heals like DS, which have only very small HPS gains.

 

As such, you Alacrity is a great stat for increasing your relaxation time in a fight, but only after you can already out-heal the damage. (Slight generalization as if you are very close to X/Y, an extra free heal would push you over that point).

 

As for DS, I have long held that is it under-rated by Operatives. The only real drawback to it is that it can't be cast while moving. Okay, that's a pretty decent sized drawback.

 

Commandos are used to using Hammer Shot as a resource management tool, and it only returns the passive regen duing its 1.5s. We would love an ability that not only returns more than the passive amount, but also scales that regen with both critical and alacrity rating. I do think they should have given a high level Medic skill to let it be cast while moving, but I guess that falls on the list of "real healing improvements" that are against their current designs.

[Shroudveil]

Commandos are used to using Hammer Shot as a resource management tool, and it only returns the passive regen duing its 1.5s. We would love an ability that not only returns more than the passive amount, but also scales that regen with both critical and alacrity rating. I do think they should have given a high level Medic skill to let it be cast while moving, but I guess that falls on the list of "real healing improvements" that are against their current designs.

 

the thing is that hammer shot on live has nerly double the hps of DS (ok, not double cause of alacrity and +25%crit chance, but let's say 1.7x)

 

if DS had double the hps it would be an amazing energy tool, as it stands now the 300or less hps is severly restricting you cause when you need energy, you usually also need to heal multiple people, and DS doesn't cut it then.

 

 

This is still feelings. I respect your feelings, I really do, but you can't claim that it is proof. I do agree that there are a few simple things that BW could do which would have a great impact on PVE without too many PVP consequence (which seems to be the root of their balancing issues) - like adding a target buff to DS / SP / whatever as many have mentioned.

 

it is not feeling when i can solo heal one fight with sorc but not with operative. the feeling would be for something like 10-30%differance, we are talking larger than that.

 

The reason for mentioning Paladins was that I see Operatives as having a similar role in ToR (aside from the numerous buffs of course ) In Vanilla, Pally's made great tank healers but poor raid healers because they had no AoE but were really efficient and had some big heals for emergencies. In ToR, Operatives are really efficient and can do fairly decent burst in a pinch, but aren't as good as Sorcerers at raid healing. FYI I don't really agree with this design.

sorcs don't have worse single target healing.

KInf and KInj are both effected equally by Alacrity (since Alacrity decreases the GCD for abilities with 1.5s cast/channel time), so it will always be a 0.5s gain using KInf. That's 33.3% with 0 Alacrity, and more as Alacrity increases. It also costs 5 energy (20%) less than KInj - although with the added regen from the longer cast time this comes down to just 2 energy (8%).

 

nope. assume 50%alacrity for simplicity's sake:

1.5sec cast *0,5 =0,75sec cast

2sec cast*0,5= 1sec cast.

 

as you see, the higher your alacrity, the less the differance is

If we're diligent about tracking TA procs from KP, I suspect KInj would get a lot more love as an efficient way to burn a TA just before you're expecting another proc (so replacing 1 KInj with 1 KInf every 6 - 8s). Over 5 mins this results in approx 37 KInj casts and saves around 90 energy. You're not losing a TA since by casting KInf you risk losing the TA proc. Does it take more micro-management of a class that already has to micro-manage their energy system? Hells yes, but hard doesn't mean it's not good!

...or use SP and be better off

 

I agree that additional raid utility would be nice, but I'm also happy that not every class brings the same thing to the table. If what I bring is great heals, efficiency, mobility and survivability, that is fine with me.

mobility: equal to sorc in live server. in test a bit higher due to +1TA

survivability: ...what? what survivability in operation? it is ~equal for all 3 with sorc being slightly ahead due to sprint

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "outdamage".

read RuQu's explanation. short version is :alacrity is only good is you already have the gear to heal an encounter.

KInj, KInf and DS all get the full benefit from Alacrity, so having some on your gear is not a bad thing. I agree that it would be nice if it effected HoT's, but having heals land ~0.2s faster is also extremely valuable.

basic rotation for operative is: KI->SP

with hot ticks ticking the whole duration and ~1DS every 20secs. out of those 20secs, the only thing affected by alacrity is KI, and that is less than half of the rotation. i don't say alacrity is useless, i say having +alacrity IN EVERY SINGLE END GAME ITEM is beyond stupid design.

A common misconception is that decreasing your cast time translates into to burning through energy faster, but unless you're in a heavy burst / chain-cast scenario this is simply not true. The time saved can be spent positioning or just standing idle. It also takes some of the pain out of being stuck at low energy with AP on cooldown through faster DS. Basically Alacrity is a QoL stat, and from the sounds of things you're using it as such once you're confident your raid and gear can handle the loss of surge (this is the same way I use it on my Sorc)

for sorc alacrity is great since most of his rotation is affected by it. but as you said yourself: you only need alacrity in operative IF you have enough HPS through the rest of the stats, aka if you already have the gear to heal an encounter. i don't want a QoL stat in EVERY PIECE of my gear.

DS isn't meant to be used as HPS, it's a regen ability (although more HPS would certainly take the sting out). In the same way, Rifle Shot isn't meant to be used for DPS for the other 2 specs. I don't really think we should have a free regen ability without any consequences ... although the way you've described it, the Merc regen ability is far more desirable in this respect.

if it is not meant for hps then completly remove the healing component and give it a flat 3% energy regen/sec or somethng like that (sorc gains 8%of his resource in 1 gcd, this costs life, DS doesn't cost life but restores ~2%resource in 1 gcd, so the only logical reason for such a huge differance is it's hps, and at 300hps that is pathetic)

 

 

But post 1.2, DS will be extremely effective at getting us out of the low-energy hole in those situations situations where we don't have AP up. Sure, at max regen the difference sounds small 11 vs 9 (22%), but in the mid bracket it's 8 vs 6 (33%), and in the low bracket 6.5 vs 4.5 (44% - if I remember the lowest regen values right). DS is simply the best way to get out of this hole. (I have managed to regen out of the middle tier using SP only on a sub-30% tank, but I'm fairly sure that this 4-man experience holds no weight in NM Ops )

this won't work exactly like that:

 

in low regen, even spamming DS you will need more than 4secs even for a single heal (which will throw you again at 0 energy) so this is not an option. cause 6secs without healing is usually death when you have 0 energy.

 

when you reach under ~45energy the best option is to burn throught the rest and pop adrenaline. if this happens more than 1/2min you are a)doing something wrong b)royally screwed

 

so the best window for DS is at 50-70energy,

Edited March 23, 2012 by Shroudveil

[Ryemfoh]

nope. assume 50%alacrity for simplicity's sake:

1.5sec cast *0,5 =0,75sec cast

2sec cast*0,5= 1sec cast.

 

as you see, the higher your alacrity, the less the differance is

You are absolutely right - I should stop attempting maths in the early hours of the morning! Would I be correct in saying that Alacrity also then in-fact improves the energy efficiency of KInf vs KInj?

 

...or use SP and be better off

Not exactly ... you can replace KInj with KInf for an efficiency gain, while not significantly effecting HPS. Using SP instead is more efficient, but your HPS suffers. Also, using 37 KInf instead of KInj will free ~12 GCD's along with the ~90 energy saving.

 

mobility: equal to sorc in live server. in test a bit higher due to +1TA

survivability: ...what? what survivability in operation? it is ~equal for all 3 with sorc being slightly ahead due to sprint

Operatives have the 2 mini-sprints I've mentioned before, but obviously they're no-where near as good as Sorc sprint so let's call them "marginal". You could alternatively spec into Infiltrator for a passive 15% in combat movement boost, but I don't see this as particularly strong for 3 points either.

 

Where Operatives really do shine though is in their 2 free defensive CD's (iirc both are off the GCD), I believe the strongest self-healing talents out of the heal classes (not very familiar with Merc as you know), and the ability to drop all aggro in an emergency (ok, you're gimped as a healer for 10 seconds after Cloaking Screen, but if it's a choice between losing 10 seconds of healing and dying I will take the former).

 

i don't say alacrity is useless, i say having +alacrity IN EVERY SINGLE END GAME ITEM is beyond stupid design.

This is more a case of bad itemisation than bad design (unless the community is really missing something when it comes to Alacrity which I doubt). With the stat changes we've seen to date, it seems to me like the Dev's want us to have a fairly even mix of 2ndary stats, and are trying to adjust things to make this desirable.

 

I think our opinions on Alacrity are fairly aligned - I do think that the curve this stat has gone through in the Theorycrafting circles is interesting though, and goes to show that the community is still learning when it comes to getting the most out of stats / rotations / etc in ToR. This is to be expected in a game only a few months old, with incomplete simulators and no access to logs (until now).

 

if it is not meant for hps then completly remove the healing component and give it a flat 3% energy regen/sec or somethng like that (sorc gains 8%of his resource in 1 gcd, this costs life, DS doesn't cost life but restores ~2%resource in 1 gcd, so the only logical reason for such a huge differance is it's hps, and at 300hps that is pathetic)

I think the dev's just wanted it to be different to the other regen abilities, and tried to balance it around that. Maybe they didn't get it right, but from RuQu's comment it sounds marginally ahead of the Merc regen ability (but can't be cast on the run).

 

I'm not sure a comparison with Consumption is wise given the differences in underlying regen mechanics. Consumption also causes that regen debuff (stacks up to 4 times) which can seriously kill your regen if it's not used correctly. DS has no real down sides other than it can't be cast on the run. Other than that, the HPS is fairly inconsequential but does at least make *some* difference.

 

this won't work exactly like that:

 

in low regen, even spamming DS you will need more than 4secs even for a single heal (which will throw you again at 0 energy) so this is not an option. cause 6secs without healing is usually death when you have 0 energy.

I'm not sure about this, and haven't been in this situation often enough to speak with any certainty.

 

Post 1.2, clipping DS at 1 GCD twice in a row actually looks like it might be better than letting it tick through to the end. This should give between 4 and 8 energy in 3s, + 9 base regen will just about give you the 15 energy you need to refresh your HoT's. As long as you can keep those rolling, you can still use your TA procs on SP (every 6 - 8 seconds) to help slowly work your way out of the hole.

 

I'm not claiming this is ideal, but it may just be enough - though I suspect good healer co-ordination in Operations is much more valuable while trying to get back to top tier regen. (On my Sorc I run with a Merc, and he calls out early if he needs me to take up the slack because he's picked up too much heat)

 

To me it comes down to "What button can I actually hit right now" - and DS is a significantly better choice than Rifle Shot.

 

when you reach under ~45energy the best option is to burn throught the rest and pop adrenaline. if this happens more than 1/2min you are a)doing something wrong b)royally screwed

 

so the best window for DS is at 50-70energy,

I sometimes drop to around 45 energy by throwing an RN out to cover incidental damage during "regular" damage phases. Maybe this is just me being lazy, but in this scenario there's no need to burn through the rest of my energy and pop AP which I might need later to cover some burst damage.

 

In these cases, DS is a good option since no-one is in danger of dying. A single DS channel clipped at 2 ticks (currently around 1.5 GCDs, post 1.2 1 GCD) will get me comfortably into the green zone, whereas hitting Rifle Shot (or SP if you have a spare TA) or two would bring me only just inside it.

[RuQu]

Originally Posted by Shroudveil

nope. assume 50%alacrity for simplicity's sake:

1.5sec cast *0,5 =0,75sec cast

2sec cast*0,5= 1sec cast.

 

You are absolutely right - I should stop attempting maths in the early hours of the morning! Would I be correct in saying that Alacrity also then in-fact improves the energy efficiency of KInf vs KInj?

 

It all depends on if you multiply or subtract first. Is it 2*0.5 - 0.5 = 0.5s, or (2-0.5)*0.5 = 0.75s? If it is the first, Ryemfoh is correct, since the amount of gain (0.5s) is static. If it is the second, Shroud is correct.

 

Looking back at exactly what you are arguing about, it is clear that Shroud is correct.

[bobudo]

This entire post so COMPLETELY misses my point, I wonder if you even read it? Because all I see is more Chicken Little antics.

 

To that extent, I wonder if you noticed that I initially made this post over a month ago to warn of the need for serious changes to the Operative/Scoundrel class.

 

Specifically, I was calling for the devs to take notice of something they'd yet to acknowledge - the significant imbalance in healing classes, specifically the Operative/Scoundrel - as real life trends (cobbled together from admittedly anecdotal accounts) of excluding non-Sorcerer/Sage healers were already beginning to mount.

 

What you chalk up as "Chicken Little-ing" on my part, as it relates to the game pre-1.2, is therefore incorrect: The sky was falling on the Operative/Scoundrel healers; the sun was setting may be a more apt metaphor.

 

I get that, in the ~ month since my OP, the Devs have acknowledged this issue and taken (what they believe to be) steps towards correcting this issue; to that extent, the literal meaning of my earliest comments and the title of this thread are now inapplicable.

 

But the message of my OP is still applicable, perhaps now more broadly. Given the opportunity, I might re-title this thread "Devs, you're missing your window to save healing". (See RuQu's post on "balance through simplification" for why I feel Bioware is taking the wrong approach.)

 

The problem pre-1.2 is that healing was in poor shape. The only class that was well designed was Sorcerer/Sage, and even then, it is significantly less complex than most other MMO healers. Commando/Mercenary and Operative/Scoundrel healing was completely barebones.

 

What Bioware needed to do was introduce a complete overhaul; instead they've nerfed.

 

It's a patch-fix (perhaps appropriate for a patch), but if healing mechanics were boats, the hole in TOR's healing is Iceberg-magnitude; you can't just patch over it and expect it to stay afloat.

 

See, Bioware drew in several different crowds with TOR: among those crowds are people with varying levels of MMO experience. From my time spend in these threads, I can tell you that most of the people upset about this issue are experienced healers; people who have played healers in other MMOs (I include myself in this group).

 

The reason we're upset/leaving is because TOR healing is a step backwards from almost any other MMO. It's boring. It's not fun. It's not rewarding.

 

We were already suffering through a sub-par system before the 1.2 nerfs were announced; can you really blame us for not wanting to stick around any longer?

[RuQu]

The reason we're upset/leaving is because TOR healing is a step backwards from almost any other MMO. It's boring. It's not fun. It's not rewarding.

 

We were already suffering through a sub-par system before the 1.2 nerfs were announced; can you really blame us for not wanting to stick around any longer?

 

Allow me to jump in here and preempt any trolls.

 

We already know what you are going to say. "If you don't find healing fun, don't heal!"

 

This is an answer that seems perfectly rational to many, especially to people who only play DPS. "If you don't like Gunnery Commandos, play a Sentinel!" That works, because you still do what you enjoy.

 

The healing in TOR is boring, but we are healers. For many of us, its the role we almost always play. Many healers have no desire to tank or dps, they heal. Always. And these are often your best healers in the game. Not that non-exclusive healers (in fact, I tank as often as I heal in MMOs, though I only dps rarely) can't be great, but most of the best healers I have ever known only play healers.

 

If you make healing boring, those of us who are willing to do something else will reroll. Those who only heal...they will go somewhere where the game designers put thought and effort into their style of play. Both outcomes leave end-game devoid of healers, which means fewer Operations get run, which means lower odds of tanks and DPS running an Op, which means people start to leave cause there is nothing to do, which means server populations decline, which makes an already sharded game feel even emptier...you see how this goes.

 

Healers keep you alive, both your in-game character and, in fact, the game itself. Do not make them angry.

[Shroudveil]

You are absolutely right - I should stop attempting maths in the early hours of the morning! Would I be correct in saying that Alacrity also then in-fact improves the energy efficiency of KInf vs KInj?

 

no.

if anything, more alacrity= more relative cost due to less cast time.

if we don't count that it only affects hps, not energy efficiency

Not exactly ... you can replace KInj with KInf for an efficiency gain, while not significantly effecting HPS. Using SP instead is more efficient, but your HPS suffers. Also, using 37 KInf instead of KInj will free ~12 GCD's along with the ~90 energy saving.

 

not exaclty again.

you can't say that infusion is a straight -5energy cost compared to KI for same hps, because ki also builds TA which leads to a 0 cost heal. so those 90energy may be so if KI wasn't building a TA.

the best approach would to to calculate the hps AND hpe of an infusion vs a ki+SP.

Operatives have the 2 mini-sprints I've mentioned before, but obviously they're no-where near as good as Sorc sprint so let's call them "marginal". You could alternatively spec into Infiltrator for a passive 15% in combat movement boost, but I don't see this as particularly strong for 3 points either.

 

Where Operatives really do shine though is in their 2 free defensive CD's (iirc both are off the GCD), I believe the strongest self-healing talents out of the heal classes (not very familiar with Merc as you know), and the ability to drop all aggro in an emergency (ok, you're gimped as a healer for 10 seconds after Cloaking Screen, but if it's a choice between losing 10 seconds of healing and dying I will take the former).

evasion only applies to physical hits, so in operations it is useless, you need sprint to avoid you aoe or terain damage, neither of which is negated by it.

as you said cloaking screen makes you uAND either be melle with the boss (for debilitate) OR burn evasion is not even comparable to 150%sprint every 20secs. to top things off, the sorcerer comes with a free +20%movespeed buff for himself A?ND for others in his shield, which has amazing potential since you usually use the shield either way when you run to avoid damage or when in aoe and etc.

[Ryemfoh]

no.

if anything, more alacrity= more relative cost due to less cast time.

if we don't count that it only affects hps, not energy efficiency

 

not exaclty again.

you can't say that infusion is a straight -5energy cost compared to KI for same hps, because ki also builds TA which leads to a 0 cost heal. so those 90energy may be so if KI wasn't building a TA.

the best approach would to to calculate the hps AND hpe of an infusion vs a ki+SP.

evasion only applies to physical hits, so in operations it is useless, you need sprint to avoid you aoe or terain damage, neither of which is negated by it.

I have the feeling we're still misunderstanding each other on these two points. Here's how I see TA working post 1.2:

 

1) I start a fight with 3xTA (because ... why not)

2) I start healing KInf-SP (now down to 1xTA - I still have the heal buff, my first heal lands faster, straight 5 energy gain since I start the fight at 100 energy so no cast-time penalty)

3) Begin KInj-SP spam, maintaining 1 TA until my next TA proc - now I'm at 2xTA

4) Keep going with KInj-SP spam until I proc a 3rd TA

5) Replace KInj with KInf-SP. Now I'm back down to 1 TA, but have saved approx. 2 energy and 0.5s depending on Alacrity.

6) Rince, repeat

 

Unless I'm missing something, the above is actually more HPS and HPE than the standard KInj-SP and using all TA procs for an extra SP.

 

Regarding the efficiency gains of KInf vs KInj at higher levels of Alacrity - let's look at 0 Alacrity vs the 50% Alacrity example you used:

 

0 Alacrity

KInf: 20e, 1.5s (9 regen) => 11 net cost

KInj: 25e, 2s cast (12 regen) => 13 net cost (+0.5s)

 

So KInf saves you 2e and 0.5s

 

50% Alacrity

KInf: 20e, 0.75s (4.5 regen) => 15.5 net cost

KInj: 25e, 1s (6 regen) => 19 net cost (+0.25s)

 

So KInf saves you 3.5e and 0.25s

 

This means that as Alacrity increases, the time savings from using KInf decrease (more casts to free up a GCD), but the energy savings actually increase. 50% Alacrity is obviously an impossible figure to reach, but assuming you're generating and using TA as I outlined above, this makes KInf even more appealing.

 

So basically, allowing us to stack 3x TA has turned KInf from an almost never used "expensive burst" ability into a "should be used regularly for efficiency - and can also still be used for burst" ability. Or am I (still) wrong?

[Shroudveil]

while ki->sp->inf is certainly more hps than ki->sp, it is NOT sustainable.

 

using a moderate amount of 14%alacrity (including the +4%from talents) you spent 45energy in a 4.5sec window in which you regenerated only 27energy.

 

so if you try to use inf every time kp procs a TA then you lose ~18energy/6secs which is huge (after 2 such rotations you will already be underneath the 60mark if you count the energy for refreshing kp)

 

this is because you don't just replace a KI with inf and you are at +5energy. you change your rotation from:

ki->sp->k->sp (50energy in 6.5secs, or 7,7/sec) to

ki->sp->inf->ki->sp (70 energy in 7,8secs or ~9/sec)

 

this is why i said to you you cannot compare directly the energy cost of an ability that generates TA and an ability that consumes it.

 

note also than on first rotation i didn't even calculate the +TA from the proc while in the rotation that had the inf it was assumed. if we calculate the TA being used to fuel a SP then the energy differance becomes even larger.

 

the second rotation ofc has more hps, but lower hpe.

 

if you get a TA proc/8sec, then you can lower the cost of the whole rotation to just under 6,25/sec, which if you subtract the 6energy/sec regen leaves so little energy loss that (if there weren't things like refreshing hot, aoe and stim boost) you could come to an energy neutral rotation that didn't use DS at all. this would be a HUGE hps gain. bigger than using infusion? can't tell without testing but with a huge cost like -9/sec that using infusion 1/8sec has, then it would be close to 1 ds /10secs to remain neutral, and that is a big hps loss.

[RuQu]

You two are having fun, and I don't want to interrupt that.

 

I do want to say that if you start with 3xTA, and presumably 2xKP on the tank, you might still want to open the fight by casting KP on someone else. Healing needs are usually easiest at the very start, so bursting with KInf is probably over-heal, and you regen faster from an instant cast than you do from a cast-time ability if you start at 100% (and only if you start at 100%) due to when the cost is deducted vs the cast/GCD time.

[Ryemfoh]

while ki->sp->inf is certainly more hps than ki->sp, it is NOT sustainable.

 

using a moderate amount of 14%alacrity (including the +4%from talents) you spent 45energy in a 4.5sec window in which you regenerated only 27energy.

 

so if you try to use inf every time kp procs a TA then you lose ~18energy/6secs which is huge (after 2 such rotations you will already be underneath the 60mark if you count the energy for refreshing kp)

 

this is because you don't just replace a KI with inf and you are at +5energy. you change your rotation from:

ki->sp->k->sp (50energy in 6.5secs, or 7,7/sec) to

ki->sp->inf->ki->sp (70 energy in 7,8secs or ~9/sec)

 

this is why i said to you you cannot compare directly the energy cost of an ability that generates TA and an ability that consumes it.

 

note also than on first rotation i didn't even calculate the +TA from the proc while in the rotation that had the inf it was assumed. if we calculate the TA being used to fuel a SP then the energy differance becomes even larger.

 

the second rotation ofc has more hps, but lower hpe.

 

if you get a TA proc/8sec, then you can lower the cost of the whole rotation to just under 6,25/sec, which if you subtract the 6energy/sec regen leaves so little energy loss that (if there weren't things like refreshing hot, aoe and stim boost) you could come to an energy neutral rotation that didn't use DS at all. this would be a HUGE hps gain. bigger than using infusion? can't tell without testing but with a huge cost like -9/sec that using infusion 1/8sec has, then it would be close to 1 ds /10secs to remain neutral, and that is a big hps loss.

 

Still not quite getting it. I'm suggesting that you use KInf every 2nd TA proc (i.e. ~16s). So your rotation would be:

KInj - SP (+TA to 3-stack) - KInf - SP - KInj - SP - etc.

 

I think I see what you're saying though - you are basically using SP on every proc in the place of a 1 GCD DS every now and again. So yes, KI - SP (proc TA) - SP - KI - etc will consume less energy, but the healing will be significantly less as well.

 

So yeah, probably not as strong as I initially thought, but I'd like to see some simulations on this.

 

My (already proven to be poor) napkin math over 2 cycles puts KInf about 20e behind using only SP (ignoring all other abilities) but ahead by at least ~2000+Healing.

 

There are just too many variables to consider without a simulator. KP costs less to refresh than either KI or KInf; Stim Boost will eat a TA proc every ~45s; SP can be cast on the run ... etc etc. I hope we can at least agree that with 3 TA the option to use KInf is there, where before it was not.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[RuQu]

I sent an email to some copied 50 characters to see if they can get me logs of some tests to settle your argument.

[Sinemetu]

I think what some people miss when they try to argue against alacrity and/or infusion is that you can fill in the holes with DS for a few hundred more healing and some more energy. If you want to say "Inf-SP-Inj-SP-Inj-SP-Inf-SP... is not sustainable," then I'll submit to you that KI-SP... is not sustainable either. I'll start bleeding energy after about the third pair.

 

Stop arguing against faster casts based on spammed rotations and start thinking about what can be done with the time you saved. And this isn't even a matter of checking whether Alacrity + DS filler is better than Crit. Infusion is clearly a superior ability. I'd like to see it become something more interesting but you work with what you have.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Sinemetu

[Menisong]

Are you guys taking into account KP casts and RN usage in the rotations?

[Sinemetu]

I think the assumption is that we're looking at a 10s ish rotation window, between RN/KP casts. The rotations I've seen discussed wouldn't be viable while maintaining KP on more than two targets (yourself and tank).

[Menisong]

I think the assumption is that we're looking at a 10s ish rotation window, between RN/KP casts. The rotations I've seen discussed wouldn't be viable while maintaining KP on more than two targets (yourself and tank).

 

But don't you still have to look at RN(optional but with changes i think will be close to on CD usage) and KP(required) in the rotation? The fact that you are maintaining those abilities regularly, you have to include their energy cost don't you?

 

Man, I just don't see RN and 2 KP refreshed every 15ish seconds and then injection, SP rotation AND infusions thrown in being sustainable....at all(thats what 50 energy just for KP and RN alone). With adrenaline Probe of course, but that is how it is done now.

 

I have a feeling I am just a far more aggressive healer and need to ease up maybe in order to include Infusion.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Menisong

[Ryemfoh]

I think the assumption is that we're looking at a 10s ish rotation window, between RN/KP casts. The rotations I've seen discussed wouldn't be viable while maintaining KP on more than two targets (yourself and tank).

 

Yes, the discussion is just for the window around TA procs, and ignores all other abilities. I think we've discussed it to the point where it's not worth going further without the data that RuQu has requested.