Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing

[Menisong]

Yes, the discussion is just for the window around TA procs, and ignores all other abilities. I think we've discussed it to the point where it's not worth going further without the data that RuQu has requested.

 

Why do you ignore all other abilities that will directly effect whether that rotation is even possible?

 

Am I missing something?

Edited March 25, 2012 by Menisong

[Ryemfoh]

Why do you ignore all other abilities that will effect that rotation directly?

 

Am I missing something?

 

Because we were discussing the idea of using KInf occasionally instead of KInj for efficiency / HPS reasons (and the impact of Alacrity on both as an aside). But as I said, I think we've taken the discussion to a logical breakpoint while we wait for more data to come in.

 

Edit: I suppose we were ignoring other abilities because it was convenient to assume that you're in a window where no other abilities need to be used (you'll notice we assume Stim boosted energy returns, and KP procs implying that it is rolling on at least 1 target).

Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[Menisong]

Because we were discussing the idea of using KInf occasionally instead of KInj for efficiency / HPS reasons (and the impact of Alacrity on both as an aside). But as I said, I think we've taken the discussion to a logical breakpoint while we wait for more data to come in.

 

OK, I don't think I understand and sorry if I intruded on your conversation.

 

In my mind you can't just leave out abilities that are required to use that rotation. You can't leave out KP costs every 15 ish seconds and I think RN with its improvements is likely an on cd ability or very very close. You have to take these costs into account or else I think it is just a theoretical rotation that will never be used in game.

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Hopefully we will get some data soon.

[Menisong]

Edit: I suppose we were ignoring other abilities because it was convenient to assume that you're in a window where no other abilities need to be used (you'll notice we assume Stim boosted energy returns, and KP procs implying that it is rolling on at least 1 target).

 

But aren't those abilities needed after that rotation and before? In order to sustain Infusion in the rotation don't you HAVE to consider the full healing "rotation" both before, after, and during? you have to refresh KP and use RN(IMO due to its changes) after the rotation with Kolto Injection, Infusion, and SP.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Menisong

[Ryemfoh]

But aren't those abilities needed after that rotation and before? In order to sustain Infusion in the rotation don't you HAVE to consider the full healing "rotation" both before, after, and during? you have to refresh KP and use RN(IMO due to its changes) after the rotation with Kolto Injection, Infusion, and SP.

 

This is exactly the conclusion I came to in my last post in the chain My opinion is that KInf maybe isn't as strong as I initially thought it might be, but that the cost of using it with the new 3TA stack is much reduced.

 

Whether it actually becomes an efficiency gain requires too many other variables to be taken into account (as you say), so until the SimulationCraft project has had Operatives added there's not much point in taking the discussion further.

[Sinemetu]

Ok, my own theorycraft indicates I may be partially wrong. I created a spreadsheet to figure out the HPS and HPE and such of the different rotations before and after the patch. Unfortunately, I don't know how to post a table here and I don't feel like uploading a picture of it, so I'll give the summarized results.

 

I'm working around a 11.x second rotation, in between RN and KP. Each rotation is between 9 and 10 seconds before adding a "filler" spell to equalize the times. The first rotation (1.1.5) is IJ-SP, 3x, plus half a DS. The second uses SP twice to spend the third TA, and then continues with IJ-SP, including an extra Injection. The third switches Inf in for SP and includes a talented (1.2) DS.

 

All of them ended up taking around 11.3 seconds and costing 70 (#3) or 75 (#1,2) energy, with ~68 regenned. #1 healed for 10139, #2 10831, and #3 10079. #2 had the best healing, and #3 was the most efficient since it started out costing 70 energy and regenned 68 if DS doesn't proc at all. The other two come up 7 or 8 energy short.

 

Thanks, RuQu. Link:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai9JhnG0ehXzdHBaWThyTlB6RHBXUWpUT2d6MWNwTkE#gid=0

 

In case there's any confusion, I describe them here in a different order than they appear on my spreadsheet.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Sinemetu

[RuQu]

Upload your spreadsheet to Google Docs, then post a link.

[Menisong]

Nice work Sinemetu.

 

Now can you run that with RN and 2x refreshing KP to see what happens over say 3 runs?

Edited March 25, 2012 by Menisong

[Sinemetu]

I didn't get quite that ambitious, but I did tack an RN and KP on to the front of the rotation. I made a couple assumptions: DS is regenning 4 extra energy over a full channel, I'm wearing two-piece PvE, and the improved talent reduces the cost of RN by 4--I can't remember if it's 4 or 6. Also, I assumed that the theoretical healer is smart enough to use his filler, be it DS or an extra Injection, at the right time for energy levels.

 

At the end of the first cycle (RN, KP, IJ-SP x3 subbing either KP or Inf in and adding a filler), you've spent 14.x seconds. The rotation using infusion has 83 energy and the one with SP has 74 energy. In other words, none of these rotations allow for using RN on CD while maintaining KP, long-term.

[Menisong]

I didn't get quite that ambitious, but I did tack an RN and KP on to the front of the rotation. I made a couple assumptions: DS is regenning 4 extra energy over a full channel, I'm wearing two-piece PvE, and the improved talent reduces the cost of RN by 4--I can't remember if it's 4 or 6. Also, I assumed that the theoretical healer is smart enough to use his filler, be it DS or an extra Injection, at the right time for energy levels.

 

At the end of the first cycle (RN, KP, IJ-SP x3 subbing either KP or Inf in and adding a filler), you've spent 14.x seconds. The rotation using infusion has 83 energy and the one with SP has 74 energy. In other words, none of these rotations allow for using RN on CD while maintaining KP, long-term.

 

If Infusion had a raw cost of 107 and SP 87, how does the surgical probe rotation end up with 10 less energy?

[Sinemetu]

I might not state it explicitly, but I threw in an extra injection. I understand the point of using KP more is to give more energy for other abilities--but not Infusion--so I added that in. If you switch the Injection with DS, it becomes very efficient with low healing. I'll add in another row for that comparison.

[Menisong]

I might not state it explicitly, but I threw in an extra injection. I understand the point of using KP more is to give more energy for other abilities--but not Infusion--so I added that in. If you switch the Injection with DS, it becomes very efficient with low healing. I'll add in another row for that comparison.

 

So if using Infusion over SP after one rotation you drop into the lower tier energy regen, while using SP you can maintiain the output over many rotations?

Edited March 25, 2012 by Menisong

[Shroudveil]

I might not state it explicitly, but I threw in an extra injection. I understand the point of using KP more is to give more energy for other abilities--but not Infusion--so I added that in. If you switch the Injection with DS, it becomes very efficient with low healing. I'll add in another row for that comparison.

 

what i was actually comparing was the hps of:

 

ki->sp with infusion when the kp procs a TA and extra DS so that we remain energy neutral

 

vs

 

ki->sp with sp when the kp procs a TA which will require less DS to remain energy neutral

 

obviously, using infusion will increase the short term HPS of the rotation, the question was if the extra HPS of using infusion over SP is equal, better, or worse than the HPS loss of the additional DS.

 

i tried to simulate such a rotation in my own spreadsheet. the problem is that the rotations align on energy cost quite far in time, so i was too bored to follow through there in order to fill the criteria i have made for myself.

 

note, that the first align IS indeed near the 18sec mark, BUT one rotation is with +1TA compared to another, and in order to simulate hpe this is a big NO, cause having TA translates to another free heal folloing.

 

so, what needs to be done when i am not quite so bored, is to find the mark when those criteria happen:

rotation B: refresh kp/18sec, use rn/15sec, ki->sp, use infusion when TA procs, refill energy with DS to keep above 60energy, ROTATION ENDS WITH TA=STARTING TA

AND energy cost is equal to energy cost of rotation B

 

rotation A: refresh kp/18sec, use rn/15sec, ki->sp, use SP when TA procs, refill energy with DS to keep above 60energy, ROTATION ENDS WITH TA=STARTING TA

AND energy cost is equal to energy cost of rotation A

[Sinemetu]

what i was actually comparing was the hps of:

 

ki->sp with infusion when the kp procs a TA and extra DS so that we remain energy neutral

 

vs

 

ki->sp with sp when the kp procs a TA which will require less DS to remain energy neutral

 

obviously, using infusion will increase the short term HPS of the rotation, the question was if the extra HPS of using infusion over SP is equal, better, or worse than the HPS loss of the additional DS.

 

i tried to simulate such a rotation in my own spreadsheet. the problem is that the rotations align on energy cost quite far in time, so i was too bored to follow through there in order to fill the criteria i have made for myself.

 

Yeah, I'm not willing to theorycraft that far out. The number of TA's is too variable, to start, and theorycrafting a fixed rotation is always suspect for healing given that incoming damage is also variable. Also, it's not like we actually renew KP exactly at 18s or any other time.

 

*******************

 

On a side note, I'm trying to make my spreadsheet more valuable by having the values adjust for crit/surge and +healing. The crit part is easy, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how +healing works. For example:

 

KI's formula is (LvlRankHealAmnt * 0.116 + HealingPower * 2.72) - (LvlRankHealAmnt * 0.156 + HealingPower * 2.72).

 

HealingPower is obvious. LvLRankHealAmnt is bugging me. I was able to derive a value (7085) by using the known lower value of Injection at 464 power. (2209/1.06-464*2.72)/0.116. I'm dividing by 1.06 because of the 6% extra healing from talents (3% and 3%). 7085 as LvlRankHealAmnt works perfectly for Injection and Infusion.

 

When I try using 7085 for Surgical Probe, Kolto Probe, or RN, though, the numbers don't work. I assume it's because of the other talents (and gear) that impact those abilities. Surgical Probe, for example, has +27% healing. (2209/1.27-464*2.72)/0.116 doesn't work either.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Sinemetu

[RuQu]

Yeah, I'm not willing to theorycraft that far out. The number of TA's is too variable, to start, and theorycrafting a fixed rotation is always suspect for healing given that incoming damage is also variable.

 

On a side note, I'm trying to make my spreadsheet more valuable by having the values adjust for crit/surge and +healing. The crit part is easy, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how +healing works. For example:

 

KI's formula is (LvlRankHealAmnt * 0.116 + HealingPower * 2.72) - (LvlRankHealAmnt * 0.156 + HealingPower * 2.72).

 

HealingPower is obvious. LvLRankHealAmnt is bugging me. I was able to derive a value (7085) by using the known lower value of Injection at 464 power. (2209/1.06-464*2.72)/0.116. I'm dividing by 1.06 because of the 6% extra healing from talents (3% and 3%). 7085 as LvlRankHealAmnt works perfectly for Injection and Infusion.

 

When I try using 7085 for Surgical Probe, Kolto Probe, or RN, though, the numbers don't work. I assume it's because of the other talents (and gear) that impact those abilities. Surgical Probe, for example, has +27% healing. (2209/1.27-464*2.72)/0.116 doesn't work either.

 

Unless you want to do a heavily RNG based sim and run lots of iterations, you can just use the "Expected Heal" value instead of max and min.

 

Expected Heal = (bonusHealing*coefficient + 7085*standardHealthPecentAvg)*((1-critChance)+critChance*(1+Surge%))

 

After you have that value, you can account for the individual buffs additively, ie 6% from TA/UH, 10% from Knight/Warrior buff, and 5% from some ability specific skill would be 6+10+5 = 21%. So you would then have:

 

Buffed Heal = (Expected Heal)*(1+buffPercent)

 

You can, of course, put that all on one line as well. That should come out and match what you see in your logs.

 

For RN and KP, the coefficient is per tick (for all HoTs, DoTs, and channeled abilities).

 

7085 is the correct value for a level 50 ability. It may not match what you see in your tooltip, because the tooltip for skill tree learned abilities is bugged (and note that all 3 you mentioned as not working are skill tree learned). That is a bug in the tooltip, the ability does heal for the amount calculated using 7085.

[Menisong]

I have a question about your spreadsheet numbers when you have time.

 

Why is line 22b and 23b so much different? The only difference at that point is one cast of infusion versus one cast of Surgical Probe...wouldn't the total healing difference between those rotations at that point only be infusion heal-Surgical Probe heal?

 

Edit: I see now, you changed it to every heal critting.

 

Edit: LOL you keep updating it as I am looking at it:)...great job on this again.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Menisong

[Sinemetu]

Unless you want to do a heavily RNG based sim and run lots of iterations, you can just use the "Expected Heal" value instead of max and min.

 

Expected Heal = (bonusHealing*coefficient + 7085*standardHealthPecentAvg)*((1-critChance)+critChance*(1+Surge%))

 

After you have that value, you can account for the individual buffs additively, ie 6% from TA/UH, 10% from Knight/Warrior buff, and 5% from some ability specific skill would be 6+10+5 = 21%. So you would then have:

 

Buffed Heal = (Expected Heal)*(1+buffPercent)

 

You can, of course, put that all on one line as well. That should come out and match what you see in your logs.

 

For RN and KP, the coefficient is per tick (for all HoTs, DoTs, and channeled abilities).

 

7085 is the correct value for a level 50 ability. It may not match what you see in your tooltip, because the tooltip for skill tree learned abilities is bugged (and note that all 3 you mentioned as not working are skill tree learned). That is a bug in the tooltip, the ability does heal for the amount calculated using 7085.

 

Thanks! I just calculated the upper and lower values to the side using the formulas and coefficients. Then I calculated crit as such: average healing+average healing * crit * surge, adding in values like +30% surge for Inf, Inj, and RN. Same results, but knowing that the tooltips are wrong was the key.

[RuQu]

Thanks! I just calculated the upper and lower values to the side using the formulas and coefficients. Then I calculated crit as such: average healing+average healing * crit * surge, adding in values like +30% surge for Inf, Inj, and RN. Same results, but knowing that the tooltips are wrong was the key.

 

Yeah, that should give you the right answer.

 

If you are interested, the 7085 value is dependent on the level you learn the skill. In fact, its the only thing that changes with level and is why they different ranks have slightly larger values.

 

For skill tree learned abilities, they automatically give you a new rank invisibly every level, so it looks like they have no rank but they do. This is why pretty much every damage and heal has a level 50 rank you have to pay to train, to make that number 7085 for all of them.

 

For skill tree abilities, the tooltip gets stuck and only shows the value for the level you can first learn it.

[Sinemetu]

I have a question about your spreadsheet numbers when you have time.

 

Why is line 22b and 23b so much different? The only difference at that point is one cast of infusion versus one cast of Surgical Probe...wouldn't the total healing difference between those rotations at that point only be infusion heal-Surgical Probe heal?

 

Edit: I see now, you changed it to every heal critting.

 

Edit: LOL you keep updating it as I am looking at it:)...great job on this again.

 

Glad you like it. I made it with the intent that I could use it to compare (for example) surge and alacrity to see which gives the most benefit. At this point, I think you could download it and adjust the bonuses however you wanted.

 

It's actually not every heal critting, it's just the average value of the heal including crits.

[Sinemetu]

Yeah, that should give you the right answer.

 

If you are interested, the 7085 value is dependent on the level you learn the skill. In fact, its the only thing that changes with level and is why they different ranks have slightly larger values.

 

For skill tree learned abilities, they automatically give you a new rank invisibly every level, so it looks like they have no rank but they do. This is why pretty much every damage and heal has a level 50 rank you have to pay to train, to make that number 7085 for all of them.

 

For skill tree abilities, the tooltip gets stuck and only shows the value for the level you can first learn it.

 

Interesting. I'd actually been wondering why I never had to train new ranks of talented abilities.

[Ryemfoh]

This is a nice start. Like Shroud, I also took a few steps down this path and got bored / lazy ... There are a lot of things to consider, and as you say a "rotation" is virtually impossible to model for healers since our job is reactive.

 

I do think that the theoretical numbers are very valuable for informing our actions though (so knowing that KInf is our no.1 HPS, HPE* and HPCT spell is important), but you need to simulate a full fight, with varying degrees of movement / burst requirement in order to derive any sort of rotation, and even then it is debatable.

 

For me it's great that we're even considering how to use KInf. As things stand on Live, the only time I consider using it is if my tank is above 30% but will die in less than ~1.8s but more than ~1.4s, I'm on 1xTA, and SP isn't enough healing to keep him alive. Even then it hurts because I lose my 6% buff and the ability to use SP if he then does drop into the sub-30% range. You can imagine how often that has happened in my flashpoint healing

 

* HPE excluding the TA requirement. If you add the time and healing of an SP to KInj it comes out further behind on HPS but ahead on HPE.

[belialle]

On the harder content that I've done, I have found KInf to be kind of a life-saver with the 4 piece PvE set bonus. My guild tried nightmare mode KP tonight for the first time (full clear), and I found myself using it a lot. I have pretty decent crit/surge, along with a fair bit of alacrity, and KInf is a nice little emergency heal, imo. It's very useful, but you do have to be careful of your energy. Edited March 26, 2012 by belialle

[Shroudveil]

On the harder content that I've done, I have found KInf to be kind of a life-saver with the 4 piece PvE set bonus. My guild tried nightmare mode KP tonight for the first time (full clear), and I found myself using it a lot. I have pretty decent crit/surge, along with a fair bit of alacrity, and KInf is a nice little emergency heal, imo. It's very useful, but you do have to be careful of your energy.

 

same, but as of 1.1.5 using a healing spell something like 2-5times in a full clear, and doing so 1/week is more than pathetic. especially considering that we only have 3 direct heals.

 

i don't want it either to be a "main" healing spell though because that will just relegate one of the other two in the same garbage bin as infusion is now.

 

if you read older posts of mine, what i would like for the operative would be to have 2 rotations. one would be something like ki->inf->ki->inf->ds/filler that would give burst healing and you would lose a lot of hps to recover and the other would be our standard sustain rotation that normalizes the healing without huge spikes followed by low healing.

 

the thing is, if you try this with current DS values, your hps during the "regen" phase after a 4-5sec burst is nowhere near sufficient to do anything, and this is what cripples my "optimal" idea.

 

from napkin math, you would either had to raise hps of ds a fair amount OR to raise the energy refund/crit (this would allow for shorter use of ds so more overall hps), they went with neither of those 2, they went with a moderate boost to both of them (lowering cast time), we will see if it is enough.

 

p.s.:

using napkin math infusion/ds instead of sp is:

 

energy wise:

infusion 1,3cast time 20energy cost= -12,2energy

ds 1,8cast time +2energy/crit, 64%chance to crit, 3ticks = +14,64

sp 1,5gcd =+9energy

 

total: casting infusion+ds gives you a +2,64energy (or +0,85energy/sec for 3,1secs), casting sp gives +9 (or +6/sec for 1.5sec) so sp>inf/ds energy wise

 

hps wise:

infusion something like 2500-5000 with 55%chance to crit: average heal= 3875

ds healing power with 64%chance to crit and 70%surge is something like : 770

sp is something like 1700-3000 with 40%chance to crit: average heal= 2176

 

hps of inf/ds = (3875+770)/(1,3+1,8)=1498

hps of sp = 2176/1.5= 1450

 

so it seems they have comparable hps but just spamming sp is till ahead in hpe. maybe the added burst of inf justifies that maybe not, this will only be apparent in the actual content and need for such short bursts

Edited March 26, 2012 by Shroudveil

[FailTrain]

Yea its pretty garbage that I barely heal damage actively done to me by a strong 3 or 4 levels lower than myself ... Most of the time I have to rely on my companion to do most/all damage because I can barely keep his and my healthbar up

[Padkhar]

This is a nice start. Like Shroud, I also took a few steps down this path and got bored / lazy ... There are a lot of things to consider, and as you say a "rotation" is virtually impossible to model for healers since our job is reactive.

 

I do think that the theoretical numbers are very valuable for informing our actions though (so knowing that KInf is our no.1 HPS, HPE* and HPCT spell is important), but you need to simulate a full fight, with varying degrees of movement / burst requirement in order to derive any sort of rotation, and even then it is debatable.

 

For me it's great that we're even considering how to use KInf. As things stand on Live, the only time I consider using it is if my tank is above 30% but will die in less than ~1.8s but more than ~1.4s, I'm on 1xTA, and SP isn't enough healing to keep him alive. Even then it hurts because I lose my 6% buff and the ability to use SP if he then does drop into the sub-30% range. You can imagine how often that has happened in my flashpoint healing

 

* HPE excluding the TA requirement. If you add the time and healing of an SP to KInj it comes out further behind on HPS but ahead on HPE.

 

It makes me wonder--was this ability different in Beta, and then nerfed to its current state?