Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing

[Songweaver]

Operative healers have no problems provided the group does everything that we require, i.e. fair amount of CC, good positioning, avoiding AoE etc. Sages/sorcs however don't need these prerequisites, allowing their groups to run through content much more quickly and easily, so few people would bother bringing an operative if they can bring a sorc.

 

Excellent logic and reasoning right there.

[Xaearth]

Sounds about right. I think overall it might be better if I stayed away from the forums. You can't have a discussion with people who won't listen to any viewpoint outside of their own. It's interesting how the mentality of why Sorc/Sage is better - no matter what changes in healing output are made to any of the healing class - will always be better and people will continue to tell everyone who asks or is not playing one, to forget all other healers and go play a Sorc/Sage instead. Then those very self same players will come here and complain about how no one wants an Operative healer in the group.

 

Nice veiled insults coming from the person who automagically denounces arguments based on utility because you don't believe in them.

 

The other outcome is that BW makes adjustments to bring Operatives on par and instead complain how all the classes are "exactly the same" and there is no individuality anymore between the healers because they all have the same toolkit.

 

Or we could, you know, actually have a working toolkit.

I mean a kit with actual tools in it, not the pathetic "push button, receive bacon" we have to work with currently.

 

The only thing that matters to me is that we kill the boss and everyone is still alive. I don't need to put out some crazy numbers that make me better than that "Sorcerer" because healing never will be a numbers game to me. It's a responsibility of keeping your group alive so that they can kill ****.

 

Irony. Healing isn't a numbers game to you but we're here discussing the only healer that brings nothing to a group but the numbers game.

 

 

WE DON'T WANT TO BE SORCS/SAGES.

We want a competitive AoE heal.

We want some semblance of group synergy beyond "Yay I make health bars go up".

We want some semblance of survivability that doesn't hinge on turning us into a paperweight for 10s unless we're hybriding in the DPS stealth tree.

 

And most importantly:

We want to feel like something other than a mismashed pile of crap that is barely held together with band-aids and bubble gum.

 

Lethality/Dirty Fighting tree just bolds, underlines, and magnifies the problems of the class as a whole. We've got too many "tools" that just don't work together except when the stars align. Yes, we don't have to use those tools, but that doesn't change the painfully obvious fact that the tools that we can use or could use if our kit was polished are being balanced alongside those tools that we can't use effectively.

[JeramieCrowe]

Operative healers have no problems provided the group does everything that we require, i.e. fair amount of CC, good positioning, avoiding AoE etc. Sages/sorcs however don't need these prerequisites, allowing their groups to run through content much more quickly and easily, so few people would bother bringing an operative if they can bring a sorc.

 

That's right. And the devs openly acknowledged over a year ago that the Smuggler/Imperial Agent classes, as a whole, will not appeal to most people for exactly that reason.

 

Yes, it's harder to play; yes, it's more tedious; yes, it requires quite a bit more situational awareness. All these things were told to us before the game even launched. That is a play style that appeals to me, and yes, I'm in the minority.

 

Don't like having to do everything you mentioned there? Pick a class that fits your play style, instead of asking that one of the only classes in the game that is a "thinking man's" class be dumbed down!

Edited March 13, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Xaearth]

Don't like having to do everything you mentioned there? Pick a class that fits your play style, instead of asking that one of the only classes in the game that is a "thinking man's" class be dumbed down!

 

Erm...

 

You do realize everything mentioned in that quote were things that are required of your group members...?

 

I guess it fits, since the majority of groups are picking a healer class that fits their play style... Too bad it isn't the player doing the healing picking the class.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Xaearth

[Songweaver]

Nice veiled insults coming from the person who automagically denounces arguments based on utility because you don't believe in them.

 

 

Nice job taking something I said and twisting it. I did not say I didn't believe in utility, and I didn't denounce the argument for utility. All I stated is that simply using the toolkit as a blanket argument for why a Sorc/Sage is better than an Op is not justification for saying an Operative healer is bad. Grass is not greener.

 

I agree that the Operative needs some help and tuning - but I do not want to see us made into a Sorc which is the impression that I get from many of the posters here. If i wanted to play Sorc, that is what I would be playing.

 

Player mentality in telling anyone and everyone who will listen that Operatives are bad, don't play one, and don't use them as healers doesn't help in the least either. It's in fact, extremely detrimental. It doesn't help anyone and at the end of the day, makes life for those of us who do enjoy our operatives and choose to play them, harder than it needs to be.

[JeramieCrowe]

Erm...

 

You do realize everything mentioned in that quote were things that are required of your group members...?

 

I guess it fits, since the majority of groups are picking a healer class that fits their play style... Too bad it isn't the player doing the healing picking the class.

 

Which you would have us believe is a HUGE problem when it's only a minor thing. A minor adjustment WHICH IS COMING.

 

You just said it yourself, you don't want your class to be turned into Sage/Sorc. But making a mountain out of a molehill will NOT help your cause.

[Neulwen]

That's right. And the devs openly acknowledged over a year ago that the Smuggler/Imperial Agent classes, as a whole, will not appeal to most people for exactly that reason.

 

Yes, it's harder to play; yes, it's more tedious; yes, it requires quite a bit more situational awareness. All these things were told to us before the game even launched. That is a play style that appeals to me, and yes, I'm in the minority.

 

Don't like having to do everything you mentioned there? Pick a class that fits your play style, instead of asking that one of the only classes in the game that are "thinking man's" classes be dumbed down!

 

Sigh. If I didn't like the class, I would play on my sorcerer instead. The problem is that most other people (people we potentially group with) will prefer a sorc because of their easymode. How hard is it to understand? This is an MMO, not a single-player game.

 

Besides, in some situations, operatives can't be the "thinking" person's class, due to lacking abilities that other classes have, that could otherwise be intelligently utilised to accomplish a goal, like for instance knocking down a ball carrier in Huttball who is about to score.

[Zellandine]

Nice job taking something I said and twisting it. I did not say I didn't believe in utility, and I didn't denounce the argument for utility. All I stated is that simply using the toolkit as a blanket argument for why a Sorc/Sage is better than an Op is not justification for saying an Operative healer is bad. Grass is not greener.

 

I agree that the Operative needs some help and tuning - but I do not want to see us made into a Sorc which is the impression that I get from many of the posters here. If i wanted to play Sorc, that is what I would be playing.

 

Player mentality in telling anyone and everyone who will listen that Operatives are bad, don't play one, and don't use them as healers doesn't help in the least either. It's in fact, extremely detrimental. It doesn't help anyone and at the end of the day, makes life for those of us who do enjoy our operatives and choose to play them, harder than it needs to be.

 

Most Operatives/Scoundrels do not want to be Sorcerers. There seems to be some sort of disconnect for people desiring to be competitive versus people wanting to be identical to another class. I haven't followed a few pages of this argument for a bit (I've been doing other things, of late), but a lot of the people posting here have been regulars.

 

So, let me be clear. I have never seen any dedicated Scoundrel or Operative player asking to be identical. Nobody is complaining about certain challenges/stylistic differences that exist. It's the fact that we're not equal in any manner of the word. That, from a mechanical standpoint, we're sorely lacking as a class. That is not an argument, it is a mathematically proven fact.

 

I just really hope you aren't one of those people who is sticking with the class expressly because of its status as the underdog, as being more "challenging", and thus entitling people who hang onto their's as being somehow superior. I'm an Operative, I'm a good Operative (my hardmode+ raid still doesn't believe me when I tell them my spec is weak), and I'm tired of the discrepancies.

 

Don't assume that because you're happy playing a sub-par class (and I assure you, it is sub-par) because of its supposed challenges (I don't find the Operative all that challenging) that we all ought to be, too.

[Soshla]

Isn't one of the major criticisms of Operative healing that they only use two heals (KI and EMP) 90% of the time because their other spells aren't worth casting? Not exactly brimming with rotation complexity.

[Urishir]

Isn't one of the major criticisms of Operative healing that they only use two heals (KI and EMP) 90% of the time because their other spells aren't worth casting? Not exactly brimming with rotation complexity.

 

2 stack hots are somewhat useful outside nightmare modes

aoe hot is better than nothing, barely, if i can spare energy and cant for some reason cast bigger heal

whatever that 1,5 sec cast with upper hand and energy cost is, is useless outside trying to catch interrupt, sure it heals some but energy cost with upper hand cost is just ridiculous for what it heals

[Zellandine]

Isn't one of the major criticisms of Operative healing that they only use two heals (KI and EMP) 90% of the time because their other spells aren't worth casting? Not exactly brimming with rotation complexity.

 

This is more or less accurate, yes. It's three abilities, though, primarily Kolto Probe, Kolto Injection and Surgical Probe. We don't really stray from it, because it's the most efficient heal 'rotation' we have.

[Soshla]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if Operatives are the "hardest healers" but also have the simplest rotation that something is off? That there's a disconnect between skill and output? Edited March 14, 2012 by Soshla

[Shroudveil]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if Operatives are the "hardest healers" but also have the simplest rotation that something is off? That there's a disconnect between skill and output?

 

operatives have the least tools for their job. that means that they need to cover up the major shortfalls of the class with only using your skills as a human for awareness, positioning, movement, and etc.

 

p.e. if a tank goes low a merc can use his csc, this will give him +10%healing dealt, -10% damage received for the tank, as well as superb burst because of cd removal of one of his spells.

in the same scenario, an operative doesn't have any aditional tools to cover up for that, he must still rely on the same 2 spells he was using before, so the only solution for operative would have been to NOT let the tank go low.

once every two minutes he can spam ki->inf for much more hps, but that is a really long cd with no way to lower it as a healing operative.

 

this example seems simple, but it gets even more difficult in reality cause p.e. in a heavy aoe situation a sorc could shield on the move the operation and just throw an aoe heal afterwards. an operative would have to SEE which dps will get stuck in the aoe so that he switches his healing target and either prehot him or cast surgical or whatever. a sorc with the same awareness could just pull the dps away from the incoming aoe before he is hit with damage, and in 1gcd he would have practically "heal" all the damage the dps would have been hit with.

 

or say p.e. soa lighting balls. the boss calls the names, the sorc losses 2gcd to shield both of them for 4k of absorbtion. an operative would have to wait till they detonate the balls and then start healing them to full, running the risk of soa just tossing them in the air and killing them. for the operative to heal 2 targets for 4k it means ~3.5sec of casting on each one, that is 7secs of not healing the tank.

 

to top all this, there is his resource, which being a double resource (TA and staying above 60energy at all times) it is much more harder to control than both the other healers. sorcs have it the most easy, but mercs too only have to worry about heat, not a secondary resource that limits which heals they can cast.

 

so TL:DR:

exaclty because they have the least tools they have to work harder than the other healers, cause they don't have tools to help them do their job and instead have to rely on their skills as players to cover up this factor.

[Metalmac]

I think the developers may be looking at the situation the wrong way. It shouldn't just be a question of whether its possible or viable, but whether each class is equally desirable to bring in combination as the others. Right now, they have made sages/sorcs too valuable, and while I don't think we fare too bad compared to merc/commando, ultimately more of those were made so people have just gotten more comfortable with their healing style/utilitiy and don't want to adapt.

 

And unfortunately, our skills need people to adapt and coordinate with us. Our nondroid CC has to be used before combat. Our group heal requires people to stay close to each other (and its not as powerful as a sage's so its not strong enough to let people stand and take area damage, more designed to heal them as they move out of it).

 

Another problem-- and I think this is big, is debuffs. Sage/Sorc are the only healing class to remove force effects--which means Ops groups are encouraged to bring a Sage/Sorc, but can pick either merc /commando or op/scoundrel for the cleanse.

 

Its fun to speculate about what direction the developers might go in, and there are always things they could do, like perhaps giving op/scoundrel a role as the best cleansers by giving cures for all debuff types, or an area cure...but ultimately our ideas don't matter if they intended this class to be the "benchwarmer" healer that's always the last choice in every situation.

 

 

This may be a Bio Ware intention as they truly favor the Sage/Sorc over other healers with the ability to cleanse Force DoTs and only them. This combined with bubbles and speed burst and pulls or push backs just makes them Over Powered to compared to Sawbones/Operative.

 

So what does the Sawbones/Operative bring to the table?

Sentinel can do the same Droid CC.

Even a Shadow Tanks have a Mez equal to our Darts.

AOE heals are ONLY 10 METERS for a Sawbones/Operative so EXTREMELY LIMITED in scope.

 

Lastly is the Sage/Sorc bubble so what do Sawbones/Operative have to compare to THAT?

[zaltanus]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if Operatives are the "hardest healers" but also have the simplest rotation that something is off? That there's a disconnect between skill and output?

 

Let's say you want to hire a construction company to build a house and you interview two companies for the job.

 

Company 1 has all its construction equipment in-house, has architects to make your designs, engineers to follow through with the designs, and the workforce to complete your house in a few months with high grade materials that will last a long time.

 

Company 2 has one pickup, some tools in the bed of the truck, 5 guys as a labor force and a Home Depot card.

 

Both companies can absolutely get the job done- but one is clearly better than the other.

 

That's how it is currently with op heals and other healing options. Operatives can do "fine" healing- that's not the point. The point is that other healers have the mechanics to do more "fine" than we can, sometimes by a large margin and often without having to work as hard as we do to keep people up. That's the issue.

Edited March 14, 2012 by zaltanus

[oredith]

That's how it is currently with op heals and other healing options. Operatives can do "fine" healing- that's not the point. The point is that other healers have the mechanics to do more "fine" than we can, sometimes by a large margin and often without having to work as hard as we do to keep people up. That's the issue.

wooh woooh woooooh..

 

slow your roll there, chief.

 

lets not lump the BH mercs in with the sorc.

 

there's sorc healing, and then there's everyone else.

 

mercs are hurting every bit as much as ops when compared against the sorc.

Edited March 14, 2012 by oredith

[Brightglade]

i'm worried that the only changes that matter would be in the aoe heal department and nothing in our absolute lack of utility...

 

so if nothing improves for them [Op Medics/Sawbones], and i don't find another ac to capture my interest (tried another 2 50s so far, 0 luck), or my will to level another toon just fades, i will probably leave too.

 

I hear you. I have greatly enjoyed your insight into the Op Medic class, your informative posts and well thought discussions.

 

But I agree. I doubt we will get the complete revamp we need. I figure the only change will be to Recoop Nano.

 

And I figure the day I read the patch notes for 1.2 will be the day I cancel my sub due to lack of real class balancing. If patch 1.2 isn't a miracle, I fear this game will fade away.

[oredith]

If patch 1.2 isn't a miracle, I fear this game will fade away.

we're a little beyond the canary in the coal mine at this point. traffic is down on torhead and darthhater significantly since launch.

 

ad buys are dropping in price like it's going out of fashion.

[RuQu]

I hear you. I have greatly enjoyed your insight into the Op Medic class, your informative posts and well thought discussions.

 

But I agree. I doubt we will get the complete revamp we need. I figure the only change will be to Recoop Nano.

 

And I figure the day I read the patch notes for 1.2 will be the day I cancel my sub due to lack of real class balancing. If patch 1.2 isn't a miracle, I fear this game will fade away.

 

Just because he specifically mentioned RN/KC, does not mean nothing else is changing. In fact, in the Q&A where he first mentioned the RN/KC change he said it was part of a "sizable chunk" of Operative changes.

Edited March 15, 2012 by RuQu

[RuQu]

we're a little beyond the canary in the coal mine at this point. traffic is down on torhead and darthhater significantly since launch.

 

ad buys are dropping in price like it's going out of fashion.

 

Isn't that to be expected?

 

I used to visit DH constantly pre-launch looking for any tidbits of info. Now I go about once a week because they don't have anything new of interest more often than that. I still play almost every day, I just have less reason to visit DH.

[Soshla]

Isn't that to be expected?

 

I used to visit DH constantly pre-launch looking for any tidbits of info. Now I go about once a week because they don't have anything new of interest more often than that. I still play almost every day, I just have less reason to visit DH.

We would expect it for Darth Hater, not so much for Torhead. We might expect to see more people going to Torhead since launch in order to check out quest/dungeon/item tips and such. Although the inclusion of a quest tracker at launch may keep most casual players from searching the internet for tips. I only ever came upon WoWhead because of quests with descriptions like "Find me the thing, over by the place".

Edited March 15, 2012 by Soshla

[RuQu]

We would expect it for Darth Hater, not so much for Torhead. We might expect to see more people going to Torhead since launch in order to check out quest/dungeon/item tips and such. Although the inclusion of a quest tracker at launch may keep most casual players from searching the internet for tips. I only ever came upon WoWhead because of quests with descriptions like "Find me the thing, over by the place".

 

Yeah, I only use torhead for getting the effect details (coefficients, standardHealthPercentMin, etc) for abilities for theorycrafting work. The game provides all the info I used to need WoWhead for.

 

If I wasn't always looking up details for math and modeling I would probably never go to torhead either...this game just has little to no need for it.

[JeramieCrowe]

We would expect it for Darth Hater, not so much for Torhead. We might expect to see more people going to Torhead since launch in order to check out quest/dungeon/item tips and such. Although the inclusion of a quest tracker at launch may keep most casual players from searching the internet for tips. I only ever came upon WoWhead because of quests with descriptions like "Find me the thing, over by the place".

 

I have *NEVER* looked up on TORHead for anything. I use SWTOR-SPY, and only for datacron locations.

 

Flashpoints and Ops are fairly self-explanatory...

 

Any other details I need for mathematics are already in the game.

Edited March 15, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Ryemfoh]

I think it's funny how the argument has shifted from healing ability to utility ... Particularly since I think this is 1 area where Operatives are in-fact extremely well equipped! Let's take a look:

 

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

 

Are people not using these abilities? I have found each and every one useful at one point or another.

[Shroudveil]

I think it's funny how the argument has shifted from healing ability to utility ... Particularly since I think this is 1 area where Operatives are in-fact extremely well equipped! Let's take a look:

 

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

 

Are people not using these abilities? I have found each and every one useful at one point or another.

1)in combat mez> out of combat mez, so sorcs/mercs>opers. also assassins get the sap too. Most importantly: 90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

2)marauder has this too, also sorc's mez is usable on droids too. also :90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

3)90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

4)90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

5)90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

6)30%move speed buff on a 1min cd <<< 150%move speed buff on a 20sec cd

7)30%move speed buff on a 30sec cd <<< 150%move speed buff on a 20sec cd also 90%of the trash (on nm modes and 16mans) and 100%of the bosses are IMMUNE TO CC

8)10sec of not doing anything for a 2min defensive cd is crap.

9)doesn't work on operations

10)personal shield.. what does that have to do with utility?

11)same as above

 

 

as a referance: utility: something you do for your group, a bonus you add to them or something that allows you to offer something unique.

 

examples:

pve:

sorc: friendly pulling people stunned in aoe, or pulling them from aoe in general. also can be used to drop their aggro if the bosses turns on them and save their ***, +armor buffs, sprinting in/out of mechanics to lessen downtime/avoid damage (like in soa), shielding before an incoming burst/aoe/whatever

mercs:10%DR shield, +healing received buffs, +armor buffs,

 

pvp: shield sprinting through fire in huttball, pulling ball carrier floors up or in goal zone, etc

Edited March 15, 2012 by Shroudveil