Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Sylriana]

3.0 was the expansion so you're basically saying that WoTLK released pre nerfed. If that was the case then it didn't get nerfed enough as it was decimated into being a game of chutes & ladders afterwards.

 

Then you mention what, halls of reflection? Thats the only 5 man that came close to demanding respect in WoTLK. People absolutely hated it when HoR was the dungeon their LFD put them in because it was such a pain to run successfully through LFD.

 

I'm failing to see your supposed points.

 

Your premise is that automatic dungeon queue ruined content difficulty because the company nerfs the content to accommodate the unwashed masses ( I guess these people were generated spontaneously when the LFD was released ). I'm pointing out that assumption is incorrect, because the process of making the content quicker and easier began significantly in advance of the release of said tool ( a full year if you just look back to 3.0, longer if you go back over the trend of content nerfing in the late 2.x or even 1.x cycles )

 

The second part is pointing out that under your assumption that correlation = causation ( even though we have the very curious instance of a cause not existing until long after the effects have been felt) one can make an (equally dubious) assertion that the exact opposite is true, because the only 5-man content of merit in the expansion cycle was released in tandem with the tool that supposedly eliminated the existence of difficult content. Mind you, this isn't an actual point, more a way of showing how absurd your own is by applying the same logic to another circumstance.

[Emeda]

There are lots of reasons, but the underlying reason, the reason the other reasons exist, the bottom line is, To allow more people access to content.

 

Content is not just the front door to the instance, it is the whole instance, right to the end. The last boss is just as much content as the first boss. If people cannot kill the first boss they cannot make it to the last. Therefore they miss out on content.

 

The bottom line is that adding a LFG will allow you then to get the content nerfed so you now can do it in 15 mins without any effort put into it.

 

As you just prove in your second paragraph. Content is not just the front door its clearing the content. You are already saying that even if you get a LFG so you can get a group for the instance you will not be happy unless you can complete the instance. How can you complete the instance? The two ways are try (which isnt an option for you) or cry until they nerf it so that you can with no effort.

 

Again LFG is not so you can get a group, its so you can later get the content nerfed.

[zarnakrider]

Because MMORPG is a genre of game for soloers.

soloers ? haha you need to get an eye checkup it says MMORPG and if i dont have any friends in swtor cuz of region block what the hell should i do ?

[Soul_of_Flames]

If someone isn't responding in chat to join a group, what makes you think that they will use a LFG tool?

 

If someone doesn't want to join a group then they won't join a group... it's as simple as that.

[DarthKhaos]

• server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.
  
• server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.
  
• server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.
  

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

Second case: same 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing as previous.

Across all 3 servers, 9 groups* of people form every hour.

Average (and best since it's only one) wait time across servers = ~6 minutes 40 seconds

60 minutes of queue time in that hour. 9 groups formed in that time, in that single queue. 60/9 = 6:40

 

is there something you don't understand about that?

I told people about this and they said I was lying. Then I showed them and they laughed so hard we got into some trouble with our boss.

 

Ok I'm going to explain this without equations so you can understand.

Average wait time is ~15mins that means it takes 15mins to form ONE party. Therefore a tank and healer is available an average of 4 times in one hr.

Now because Server C has an average wait time of ~30mins (fixed a typo I had here) that means they only have 2 sets available to them within that hour. One pair will be taken from Server A increasing their wait time and server C reduces theirs. Now ALL servers have 3 sets of tanks and healers available to them in the hr averaging out the wait time of ALL 3 to 20mins.

 

This is in an ideal situation. Server A gets a longer queue time and server C gets a shorter one. I repeat again. The average of three numbers CANNOT be LESS than the smallest number. So if the shortest wait time on any server is ~15mins you CANNOT have an average of less than 6mins (6:40 as you said).

Edited February 14, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Sylriana]

soloers ? haha you need to get an eye checkup it says MMORPG and if i dont have any friends in swtor cuz of region block what the hell should i do ?

 

He's trying to be sarcastic, even though he's supporting a position of keeping it prohibitive to do group content.

[ferroz]

Speculation at best.

That word... do you know what it means?

 

Just like we are saying now but being that 2 previous games did exactly that there is no basis to form the same opinion.

Oh you can feel free to form an opinion. Just don't expect anyone to agree that your opinion is fact, when it's not.

[bennyhana]

So.. It appears you are looking for convenient and easy.. Perhaps an MMO is not your cup of tea.. Convenient and easy is not what an MMO is about.. Unless of course you want to ruin it.. See WOW.. It is losing subscriptions for a reason..

 

 

 

Citation required.. If you are attempting to quote Bioware.. An actual quote would be nice..

 

So an MMO is not my cup of tea because i dont like my lfg tool inconvenient and hard?

[Vlaxitov]

Your premise is that automatic dungeon queue ruined content difficulty because the company nerfs the content to accommodate the unwashed masses ( I guess these people were generated spontaneously when the LFD was released ). I'm pointing out that assumption is incorrect, because the process of making the content quicker and easier began significantly in advance of the release of said tool ( a full year if you just look back to 3.0, longer if you go back over the trend of content nerfing in the late 2.x or even 1.x cycles )

 

The second part is pointing out that under your assumption that correlation = causation ( even though we have the very curious instance of a cause not existing until long after the effects have been felt) one can make an (equally dubious) assertion that the exact opposite is true, because the only 5-man content of merit in the expansion cycle was released in tandem with the tool that supposedly eliminated the existence of difficult content. Mind you, this isn't an actual point, more a way of showing how absurd your own is by applying the same logic to another circumstance.

 

3.0 was the the release of WoTLK just like 2.0 was the release of TBC. Now you're replying with this windy say nothing post as an attempt to dance around the fact that you got called for asserting WoTLK was released pre nerfed as an argument.

[Vlaxitov]

He's trying to be sarcastic, even though he's supporting a position of keeping it prohibitive to do group content.

 

Oh is that what I'm doing? LOL, you're amazing.

[ferroz]

Ok I'm going to explain this without equations so you can understand.

Average wait time is ~15mins that means it takes 15mins to form ONE party. Therefore a tank and healer is available an average of 4 times in one hr.

And 2 dps.

 

Now because Server C has an average wait time of ~20mins that means they only have 2 sets available to them within that hour. One pair will be taken from Server A increasing their wait time and server C reduces theirs. Now ALL servers have 3 sets of tanks and healers available to them in the hr averaging out the wait time of ALL 3 to 20mins.

no, noone takes anything from anyone.

 

X people enter the queue. Y groups leave.

 

This is the core of your mistake; you're looking at server wait times when that doesn't exist in a cross server queue. So averaging the values in that situation doesn't actually produce a meaningful number.

 

This is in an ideal situation. Server A gets a longer queue time and server C gets a shorter one. I repeat again. The average of three numbers CANNOT be LESS than the smallest number. So if the shortest wait time on any server is ~15mins you CANNOT have an average of less than 6mins (6:40 as you said).

That's your problem: there's no such thing as a "wait time per server", because there isn't a server queue. There's only a wait time per group, or a wait time per person.

 

The average wait time in queue A is 15 minutes; 4 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue B is 20 minutes; 3 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue C is 30 minutes; 2 groups form every hour (edit: typo)

The average wait time in queue D is 6:40 minutes; 9 groups form every hour

 

 

the per person wait time is directly proportional to the group wait time.

 

 

 

 

The average wait time, per group on server A with a single server queue is 15 minutes

The average wait time, per group on server B with a single server queue is 20 minutes

The average wait time, per group on server C with a single server queue is 30 minutes

 

The average wait time per group, for the combine server queue, is ~6:40.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.

server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.

server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

second case: 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing

9 groups of people form every hour.

average wait time across servers = 6.7 minutes (also the best case)

 

Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[Sylriana]

3.0 was the the release of WoTLK just like 2.0 was the release of TBC. Now you're replying with this windy say nothing post as an attempt to dance around the fact that you got called for asserting WoTLK was released pre nerfed as an argument.

 

Windy say nothing? The point is pretty clear, but I'll try to make it more concise:

 

Your argument = Dungeonfinder led to ezmode content in WoW and therefore it would do the same in TOR

Reality = Blizzard began nerfing content and releasing easier instances more than a year ( several years if you really want to look back at the strings of content nerfs and gear giveaways they've done ) before the tool was implemented.

 

AND: That irrespective of the above, the two points are entirely unique subjects and should be treated as such. The argument that people who don't want the most difficult and time consuming portion of a flashpoint to be forming the group also ubiquitously want the content to be piss easy is utter nonsense.

 

If someone isn't responding in chat to join a group, what makes you think that they will use a LFG tool?

 

If someone doesn't want to join a group then they won't join a group... it's as simple as that.

 

 

What about someone who wants to join a group, but doesn't want to sit in the fleet?

 

I'd love to do Cademimu right now, but I'm busy finishing the Nar Shaddaa bonus series, and therefore cannot see who is in the fleet asking for people for Cademimu, nor ask in the fleet myself.

 

Oh is that what I'm doing? LOL, you're amazing.

 

Isn't it? People are asking for tools to make it more reasonable to find groups for flashpoints without having to sit in the fleet for a potentially protracted period of time. You say that this would ruin the game. It's not really that much of a stretch, it's simply rephrasing your statement.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Sylriana

[Amiracle]

And 2 dps.

 

no, noone takes anything from anyone.

 

X people enter the queue. Y groups leave.

 

 

 

That's your problem: there's no such thing as a "wait time per server", because there isn't a server queue. There's only a wait time per group, or a wait time per person.

 

The average wait time in queue A is 15 minutes; 4 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue B is 20 minutes; 3 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue C is 30 minutes; 3 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue D is 6:40 minutes; 9 groups form every hour

 

 

the per person wait time is directly proportional to the group wait time.

 

 

 

 

The average wait time, per group on server A with a single server queue is 15 minutes

The average wait time, per group on server B with a single server queue is 20 minutes

The average wait time, per group on server C with a single server queue is 30 minutes

 

The average wait time per group, for the combine server queue, is ~6:40.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.

server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.

server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

second case: 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing

9 groups of people form every hour.

average wait time across servers = 6.7 minutes (also the best case)

 

 

 

 

Oh you can feel free to form an opinion. Just don't expect anyone to agree that your opinion is fact, when it's not.

[Vlaxitov]

That's your problem: there's no such thing as a "wait time per server", because there isn't a server queue. There's only a wait time per group, or a wait time per person.

 

Its actually your problem because you're the one theorycrafting with supposed average wait times. Then you failed at math when using those numbers you pulled out of your derriere.

[Kaelshi]

Oh geez

 

I got away for a few hours and Darth Khaos is still on here trying to convince people that the LFD tool on WoW takes longer to form groups than without one.

 

Jesus H Christ.

 

I still didnt see any explanation for how if it takes 50 minutes to find a single group using the LFD tool while it was searching the, yes, entire subscription base of the United States yet there is some magical way to find tanks/healers on a single server much faster.

 

I also am not real sure what you and Ferr are discussing with the numbers.

 

They are irrelevant:

 

On WoW - RIGHT NOW - at peak hours it takes less than 5 minutes to form a group whether you are dps/tank/healer.

 

off-peak it takes between 5-10 minutes if you're a DPS and less than 5 if you're a healer/tank.

 

It's faster, especially at off-peak hours, than if you were limited to your own server attempting to find PUGS.

 

LFD is irrelevant and has no effect on people who have guilds/groups of friends who raid exclusively together.

[ferroz]

Oh you can feel free to form an opinion. Just don't expect anyone to agree that your opinion is fact, when it's not.

Did, I hurt your feelings or something? If so, I apologize.

[ferroz]

Its actually your problem because you're the one theorycrafting with supposed average wait times. Then you failed at math when using those numbers you pulled out of your derriere.

 

The average wait time in queue A is 15 minutes; 4 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue B is 20 minutes; 3 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue C is 30 minutes; 2 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue D is 6:40 minutes; 9 groups form every hour

 

where is the math error?

[Amiracle]

Did, I hurt your feelings or something? If so, I apologize.

 

I'm just using your words.

 

You have an issue with what you said?

[Vlaxitov]

Windy say nothing? The point is pretty clear, but I'll try to make it more concise:

 

Your argument = Dungeonfinder led to ezmode content in WoW and therefore it would do the same in TOR

Reality = Blizzard began nerfing content and releasing easier instances more than a year ( several years if you really want to look back at the strings of content nerfs and gear giveaways they've done ) before the tool was implemented.

 

No, you asserted that WoTLK came out of the box pre nerfed so any additional nerfs couldn't possibly be the result of an auto grouping tool. Then you cited halls of reflection as evidence that LFD could come with harder content as well. Everyone who played at that time knows that halls of reflection was the bane of LFD. It was the one instance that sort of demanded respect thus was miserable for most people to do via LFD.

 

If HoR popped in my LFD queue, I would usually have to wait awhile inside the dungeon for people to show up, realize where they were, and leave the group because getting the 15 minute deserter debuff was well worth not having to run HoR via LFD for them. Thats the success story you get when trying combining challenge even to a moderate extent with an auto grouping tool like that.

[ptwonline]

My worry about a LFD tool is not just the LFD tool in and of itself, but what overly convenient multi-player content devolves into.

 

What happened in WoW is that Heroics went from being content into being vending machines for loot. People didn't run them for story or for fun. They ran them to get the rewards at the end, and felt compelled to run them over and over and quickly became both jaded and with zero patience or tolerance for newer or lesser geared or skilled players. In short, it started making pretty much everyone miserable.

 

While that outcome is not inevitable in SWTOR, I suspect the same thing will happen.

[Kaelshi]

No, you asserted that WoTLK came out of the box pre nerfed so any additional nerfs couldn't possibly be the result of an auto grouping tool. Then you cited halls of reflection as evidence that LFD could come with harder content as well. Everyone who played at that time knows that halls of reflection was the bane of LFD. It was the one instance that sort of demanded respect thus was miserable for most people to do via LFD.

 

If HoR popped in my LFD queue, I would usually have to wait awhile inside the dungeon for people to show up, realize where they were, and leave the group because getting the 15 minute deserter debuff was well worth not having to run HoR via LFD for them. Thats the success story you get when trying combining challenge even to a moderate extent with an auto grouping tool like that.

 

I don't know what you two are trying to butt heads about but recently Blizzard acknowledged that non-heroic raid content actually auto-nerfs itself if you continually wipe.

 

So the as for making content easier - it's always been made easier for those having trouble with it - it had nothing to do with an LFD tool.

[evildestroyer]

Dont forget with Cross server LFG, if you get stuck with a loser you will never see that person again most likely. If a loser is on same server you stuck with them.

[navarh]

This is in an ideal situation. Server A gets a longer queue time and server C gets a shorter one. I repeat again. The average of three numbers CANNOT be LESS than the smallest number. So if the shortest wait time on any server is ~15mins

so 6 party per hour on average time 15m

 

sorry to inform you but your "hour" now have 6*15 = 90…

 

available an average of 4 times in one hr.

 

have 2 sets available to them within that hour.

 

Now ALL servers have 3 sets of tanks and healers available to them in the hr

sorry but how?

6 is amount of groups available within a hour

Edited February 14, 2012 by navarh

[Sylriana]

No, you asserted that WoTLK came out of the box pre nerfed so any additional nerfs couldn't possibly be the result of an auto grouping tool.

No, I'm asserting that the argument that Blizzard began nerfing content on behalf of LFD is tenuous at best because they were already in the process of nerfing content long before it was implemented.

 

Then you cited halls of reflection as evidence that LFD could come with harder content as well. Everyone who played at that time knows that halls of reflection was the bane of LFD. It was the one instance that sort of demanded respect thus was miserable for most people to do via LFD.

Again, that was largely a non-serious comment, meant to poke fun at the absurdity of your own point.

 

The average of three numbers CANNOT be LESS than the smallest number.

 

You are correct. But this isn't an issue of averages.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Sylriana

[Vlaxitov]

The average wait time in queue A is 15 minutes; 4 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue B is 20 minutes; 3 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue C is 30 minutes; 2 groups form every hour

The average wait time in queue D is 6:40 minutes; 9 groups form every hour

 

where is the math error?

 

The math failure was in your initial theorycraft post. Now you're trying to clean it up.

 

Seriously, this is nonsense anyway. People aren't forming full groups of people they've never played with everyday. Theyre running with people they ran with days if not weeks before. That invalidates all your theorycraft from the get go.