Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[harpuax]

Except no one is asking for the game to be easy or effortless. No one in this thread asking for LFD has even mentioned making the content easier, as that has nothing to do with this thread.

 

 

Yes it does. It is a direct result of a Que system.

[Progue]

The only issue I have with the LFD tool is that it attempts to fix a symptom and not a cause. And even then, it can only go so far to fix that symptom.

 

The symptom is the uneven distribution of players and classes across servers. Some servers have more tanks and healers than others. And all servers have a disproportionate amount of dps players. I have no statistics to back me up, but no one can doubt that dps makes up the majority of players in any game, including this one.

 

The solution a cross realm LFD tool provides is distributing the lack (or glut) of classes across all servers. This way, you have an equal chance of getting a group no matter what server you're on, essentially raising the miserable waiting times to less miserable waiting times and lowering the good times to not so good waiting times. So, yes, there is a marginal improvement to grouping, but many would say the costs outweigh this benefit. Those costs have already been discussed in this thread and others, including the OP.

 

As I said, the cause is uneven distribution of players and classes. The group size in this game only exacerbates the problem. You would think having a group size of four would make it easier to find a group. It doesn't. Do the math. You have two games. In one game, you have a group size of 6. In the other, a size of four. You need at least one healer and tank in each group for both games. So, let's say you have a player population of 120. In the first game, that population can only form 20 groups, which means you only need 40 of those 120 to be healers and tanks. In the other game, you can form 30 groups, which means you need 60 of those 120 to be healers and tanks. It's 1/3 of the population versus 1/2. And I think even 1/3 is an unrealistic expectation.

 

Other than LFD, I see only two solutions:

 

1. Control the way players pick their class/server in order to ensure each server meets is population quotas. Most will probably reject this method, because it restricts the player's freedom to play how he/she chooses.

 

2. Eliminate the need for a tank & healer in any one group. The "down with the trinity" crowd espouses this point of view. But you don't have to eliminate the need for tanks and healers altogether. You can eliminate the need for both, but still have the need for one (i.e. have either a tank or a healer in the party, but both is not essential).

 

Players like playing dps. For some reason, developers have trouble designing around that fact.

 

There it is, since I'm apparently not linking it correctly.

[ferroz]

Yes it does. It is a direct result of a Que system.

not at all.

 

You can speculate all you want that they'll change the difficulty... but it's just speculation.

[Vlaxitov]

Back when I played FFXI (in the old days, haven't played it since WoW came out), it was easy to point out the absolute worst thing about the game: finding groups. The only way you could level in that game was camping mobs in full groups. You spent probably the first hour (on a good day) online looking for a party, and it was a dice roll as to whether that party wouldn't fall apart after the first fight. The only counter to this problem was having a static group of friends with whom you scheduled leveling sessions. This made the game practically inaccessible to new players, unless they were introduced by a friend who had a support system already set up for them (as in a guild).

 

Why do we need that kind of barrier to accessibility?

 

This isn't final fantasy and you don't need a group at all times to level. You need a group a handful of times while you level and even that is optional. Then you need a group constantly after you're done leveling and when that is done an even bigger and more coordinated group for raids. You act as though you didn't have the ability to communicate at all with other players in final fantasy. Your argument is invalid and final fantasy sucks anyway.

[Emeda]

Nope. Not true.

 

My experience with LFD queues in WOW was a very positive one. The positives greatly outweigh any negatives there may be.

 

Socialism, huh? You are a funny one.

 

It was so positive that you are playing this game now instead.

 

I would tell you why LFG is a bad idea but then it will just get removed again.

 

The only reason people want LFG is so they can then get the content nerfed to extreme easiness after.

 

The people that want a LFG do not care about finding groups.

 

Its a step program that the casuals use with the end result being nerfed content.

[Vlaxitov]

not at all.

 

You can speculate all you want that they'll change the difficulty... but it's just speculation.

 

Point me to the mmo that auto grouping tools didn't result in dumbing down the content associated with it and I would be estatic to go try it out.

 

Thats not a joke, I'd seriously love to find even one.

[Emeda]

not at all.

 

You can speculate all you want that they'll change the difficulty... but it's just speculation.

 

Its not speculation its been proven that that is what happens and that it really is your goal in the first place.

[harpuax]

not at all.

 

You can speculate all you want that they'll change the difficulty... but it's just speculation.

 

If they do not nerf content then they were wrong for instituting the tool. Since both are an answer to the same problem. To allow more people access to content. If you have the tool without the nerf you are saying we want only a few more people to have access to the content.

[MagnisLupus]

Below lvl 50 people would just use it to skip all of their story content and p-lvl straight to 50...... at lvl 50 though, your story is pretty much done, and there's no reason that having to spam the same instances over and over to get end-geared couldn't be made atleast a little more painless......... what is spending half the day in fleet spamming "LFG" accomplishing except making people want to quit?

[DarthKhaos]

I see you are now leaving out it took you 50 minutes to find groups with LFD.

 

You are learning my Padawan.

 

Next Step - a non-automated system does not mean a player HAS to spam General Chat.

 

So - we're going to use logic and our combined experience with MMO's again.

 

I am sure like me you have played lots and lots of mmo's over the years.

 

So between the 2 of us we've likely played UO, M59, NWN, Eq, EQ2, DAOC, AC, GW, WoW, Warhammer, LOTRO, The Realms, uhm other ones I cant think of right now.

 

On all of those games without LFD's.....how did most people go about looking for a group.

 

 

ahhhhh....I can see it in your eyes....realization....the obviousness that people DO and WILL spam chat with LFG groups if there is no LFD....the way they CURRENTLY do right this second in SWTOR at all levels.

 

Your training is complete.

Firstly, I did not retract anything. My previous post is still there and unedited. I left out the short explanation to each point to shorten the length of the post and because you tend to get distracted from it due to ONE example.

Second the only thing that caused any thing happening in my eye is tears from laughing so hard.

 

Now I know some people need a visual aid and this guy in his post entitled Group Mission Queue (Dungeon Finder) Pane Concept and he had a concept image of a LFG tool.

 

This one has options for creating your own group where you can indicate what advance classes you'd like in your party. This may not be necessary but it's a nice touch for those who wish to have specific classes in their party. For a flashpoint it'll work similar, instead of listing a zone or planet it list a flashpoint and you can select to display players looking for a group or groups looking for members. You check off your role, AC, whatever in the tool and it will filter out all the groups that is looking for someone of your role or players that would be a possible fit for a group.

[Sylriana]

If you could point me to one mmo that has added an auto grouping LFD tool and the game's devs didn't eventually get around to making it easy and effortless, I'd be happy to go try it out.

 

Can you name one that has?

 

Nevermind that the point is still utterly irrelevant, as difficulty of content and difficulty of preparing for content are mutually exclusive concepts (though one could argue that it's a bit screwed up when getting a group together for a flashpoint can be more difficult and time consuming than actually running the flashpoint)

[ferroz]

There it is, since I'm apparently not linking it correctly.

ah. I initially skipped reading that because the formatting was so messed up.

 

You're not correct about the amount of improvement it makes. Just increasing the number of people hitting the queue significantly improves queue time.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

• server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.
  
• server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.
  
• server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.
  

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

Second case: same 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing as previous.

Across all 3 servers, 9 groups* of people form every hour.

Average (and best since it's only one) wait time across servers = ~6 minutes 40 seconds

Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[Progue]

This isn't final fantasy and you don't need a group at all times to level. You need a group a handful of times while you level and even that is optional. Then you need a group constantly after you're done leveling and when that is done an even bigger and more coordinated group for raids. You act as though you didn't have the ability to communicate at all with other players in final fantasy. Your argument is invalid and final fantasy sucks anyway.

 

You always need a group if you want to experience some of the best content in the game: the flashpoints. As you pointed out, you always need a group of some kind at the level cap. In the end, forming groups is an essential part of this game. Why do we need a barrier to something that essential?

 

And I don't know where your comment about the inability to communicate in FFXI was coming from. All of those problems existed in spite of good communication. (With the auto-translator, you could even group with europeans and japanese, but that's neither here nor there). In any case, I was simply using FFXI as a concrete example of how less accessibility in a grouping system is a bad thing.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Progue

[ferroz]

Its not speculation its been proven that that is what happens and that it really is your goal in the first place.

No, it's speculation. Pointing at another game where it has happened is not proof; it's a common logical fallacy.

[harpuax]

Can you name one that has?

 

Nevermind that the point is still utterly irrelevant, as difficulty of content and difficulty of preparing for content are mutually exclusive concepts (though one could argue that it's a bit screwed up when getting a group together for a flashpoint can be more difficult and time consuming than actually running the flashpoint)

 

Wow and rift.

 

 

They are not exclusive, because they are a solution to the same issue. Access for more people to content.

[ferroz]

Wow and rift.

 

 

They are not exclusive, because they are a solution to the same issue. Access for more people to content.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that, at best, you can show that in those 2 cases, that nerfs happened after the dungeon finder went into the game, not that one caused the other. In rift they had already nerfed the content before lfg went in; in wow, they had a long history of nerfing content as time goes by.

 

Not that 2 cases by different developers means that it will always happen.

[Progue]

ah. I initially skipped reading that because the formatting was so messed up.

 

You're not correct about the amount of improvement it makes. Just increasing the number of people hitting the queue significantly improves queue time.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

• server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.
  
• server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.
  
• server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.
  

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

second case: same 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing as previous.

Across all 3 servers, 9 groups* of people form every hour.

Average (and best since it's only one) wait time across servers = ~6:20 minutes

 

I disagree with your method, here.

 

When you add servers to the same queue, you increase the population size in the queue. So, if there is a 1000 players per server, that means 3000 players total need groups. That 9 groups/hour is now tackling three times the number of players, which means it is only as good as 3 groups per hour on one server, which was your median average. All the LFD tool does is even out the waiting times across all servers. This means it will never be very good or very bad, just so-so.

[Vlaxitov]

post hoc ergo propter hoc eh?

 

Hardly..

 

Nice attempt at bastardizing terms to establish intellectual superiority like a good little narcissist.

 

Every mmo I've played that added auto grouping tools has been followed up with complaints about content difficulty which was followed up with content nerfs.

 

Again, point me to the game that what I've said isn't the case. All you have is talking points and you cannot even answer the question.

[harpuax]

No, it's speculation. Pointing at another game where it has happened is not proof; it's a common logical fallacy.

 

No it is logical reasoning.

 

If you want MORE people to have access to content you must A) make it easier for them to get into and B) make it easier complete.

 

If you give them A without B what is the the point, since you will not be achieving your goal of MORE access. You will only have slightly less limited access.

[Sylriana]

Wow and rift.

 

 

They are not exclusive, because they are a solution to the same issue. Access for more people to content.

 

Except WoW released the easy content first.

 

You're wrong on the second count too. Only one of the two addresses the issue of access to content. The ability to complete said content is entirely separate.

[DarthKhaos]

ah. I initially skipped reading that because the formatting was so messed up.

 

You're not correct about the amount of improvement it makes. Just increasing the number of people hitting the queue significantly improves queue time.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

• server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.
  
• server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.
  
• server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.
  

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

Second case: same 3 servers, cross server lfg tool.

Same people queuing as previous.

Across all 3 servers, 9 groups* of people form every hour.

Average (and best since it's only one) wait time across servers = ~6 minutes 40 seconds

Someone got to teach this guy some math. The average of 3 numbers CANNOT be less than the smallest number.

[harpuax]

Except WoW released the easy content first.

 

You're wrong on the second count too. Only one of the two addresses the issue of access to content. The ability to complete said content is entirely separate.

 

So if I am incompetent at finding a group I should get something to do it for me, but if I am incompetent at clearing content I am SOL. Both people are incompetent, why should one benefit over the other?

[Vlaxitov]

Except WoW released the easy content first.

 

Really?

 

Please be more specific with what you mean. WoW nerfed the whole game, experience gain, faction requirements, dungeon content, at the same time they added daily dungeon rewards granted the tool wasn't auto grouping yet but it was there.

[ferroz]

Someone got to teach this guy some math.

I know lots of math. Is there an error you'd like to point out?

 

The average of 3 numbers CANNOT be less than the smallest number.

That's just it... when you have 3 servers in the same pool, the situation is not an average of the 3 numbers. Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[Amiracle]

When Rift launched the LFD tool the instances were nerfed.

 

Don't let anyone tell you different.