Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Kaelshi]

The reason I try to convince people an LFD tool is good:

 

I respect opinions - I have no definitive evidence LFD doesn't do what some suggest it does(destory communities for example, or CAUSE people to be jerks) they have no evidence to prove it does.

 

However it is very simple.

 

Scenario: It's 7pm and I log on. I dont ALWAYS log on at 7pm. we'll see my daughter went to bed a little early tonight. As usual I am on-call at work(I work from my home pc when I am on-call but still on-call).

 

I log on and I want to run a flashpoint.

 

I chat LFG for a while - I'm a healer so I get picked up pretty quickly.

 

We start

 

20 minutes in I get a phone call - "hey guys, gimme one minute work called i can do this real quick" i alt-tab out, address the issue in 2 minutes, come back over - great.

 

5 minutes after that - my daughter wakes up - she had a nightmare. "hey guys give me a minute while I soothe my daughter she had a nightmare" This is a server-side group and I'm the healer - they wait 10 minutes.

 

I get her back asleep. 10 minutes after that work calls - "sorry guys, gotta go seriuos issues with work gonna take me af ew hours to address, later"

 

............group is half way through content and are now forced to go back to the fleet and spam looking for a brand new healer.

 

 

So - am I a jerk for starting content even though there were potential issues that could come up during the fp? Or is that just the way it goes sometimes - There is almost NEVER a time I can run a flashpoint or op without potential issues like that arising as I am always a parent and almost always on call.

 

So whats the other option?

 

LFD - hey guys, gotta go sorry some stuff came up irl. "np, see ya later bro".

 

Re-queue - healer added within a few minutes, fp continues.

 

 

 

I almost never grouped in WoW before the LFD tool because I did not want that first scenario to happen - it made me a jerk. Those who dont have rl obligations may still think I'm a bit of a jerk dropping from an LFD group - but that group has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over the server-side group if that happens.

 

So the LFD allows me to experience content I otherwise would now - and prevents a disastrous situation from happening if your healer/tank drops from the group due to rl concerns.

[Kayaata]

Have you read the thread or are you still looking for those numbers to support your previous claims??

 

There are a lot of good reasons.. You should read the thread while it is still short..

 

You are right in one thing.. There is a lot of bias in this discussion.. My guess is it is the people that like to say 'There are no good reasons against LFG.' when there is a thread full of good reasons.. They just don't want to consider the idea that someone else may have a difference of opinion or a valueable point to consider.. Bias to me is someone wanting something and not wanting to hear what anyone else has to say about it..

 

So where are those numbers you spoke of earlier?? Were they fabricated or exaggerated?? Just asking..

 

Right because 50/50 people for and against in this thread is a moot point because you posted, quit trying to look like a debater because your terrible at it

[corbanite]

The reason I try to convince people an LFD tool is good:

 

I respect opinions - I have no definitive evidence LFD doesn't do what some suggest it does(destory communities for example, or CAUSE people to be jerks) they have no evidence to prove it does.

 

However it is very simple.

 

Scenario: It's 7pm and I log on. I dont ALWAYS log on at 7pm. we'll see my daughter went to bed a little early tonight. As usual I am on-call at work(I work from my home pc when I am on-call but still on-call).

 

I log on and I want to run a flashpoint.

 

I chat LFG for a while - I'm a healer so I get picked up pretty quickly.

 

We start

 

20 minutes in I get a phone call - "hey guys, gimme one minute work called i can do this real quick" i alt-tab out, address the issue in 2 minutes, come back over - great.

 

5 minutes after that - my daughter wakes up - she had a nightmare. "hey guys give me a minute while I soothe my daughter she had a nightmare" This is a server-side group and I'm the healer - they wait 10 minutes.

 

I get her back asleep. 10 minutes after that work calls - "sorry guys, gotta go seriuos issues with work gonna take me af ew hours to address, later"

 

............group is half way through content and are now forced to go back to the fleet and spam looking for a brand new healer.

 

 

So - am I a jerk for starting content even though there were potential issues that could come up during the fp? Or is that just the way it goes sometimes - There is almost NEVER a time I can run a flashpoint or op without potential issues like that arising as I am always a parent and almost always on call.

 

So whats the other option?

 

LFD - hey guys, gotta go sorry some stuff came up irl. "np, see ya later bro".

 

Re-queue - healer added within a few minutes, fp continues.

 

 

 

I almost never grouped in WoW before the LFD tool because I did not want that first scenario to happen - it made me a jerk. Those who dont have rl obligations may still think I'm a bit of a jerk dropping from an LFD group - but that group has a HUGE ADVANTAGE over the server-side group if that happens.

 

So the LFD allows me to experience content I otherwise would now - and prevents a disastrous situation from happening if your healer/tank drops from the group due to rl concerns.

 

Don't get tied up in something that is going to take an hour. Go and do some farming or level an alt or something else but don't let x amount of people down because you want what you want NOW

 

If you are on call then you are being paid for the inconvenience. Don't go leaving people you do not know without a healer.

 

This is selfish and why I am against LFD.

 

LFD is all about the single player. Not enougth time to find a group.. then use LFD.. cannot be bothered looking for a group.. use LFD.. going to bail out after getting what you want.. use LFD.. quite likely going to let group down before end of run.. use LFD.. Want something to sell for credits,.. then run LFD and need on the item.. lull

 

so what if they put you on ignore list.. not like your reputation will suffer and you get the stuff you want.. win win...

 

This is what is wrong with LFD and why it erodes communities.

[DarthKhaos]

I'm going to make my point as clear and simple as possible.

 

At this point in the game life an automated cross server looking for group system is not needed.

 

Why?

• The inability to add new friends from the people you do interact with while running the event.
  One of the greatest things this game implemented is the easy way to add a friend when you complete a quest or flashpoint. If you don't like anyone you don't bother but if there was someone that stood out to you for whatever reason you can quickly and easily add them.
  
• Does not support finding groups for heroic quests.
  Because the heroic quests are semi instanced and part of the planet/zone load and some parts are outside of those semi instances you can't bring in people from other servers.
  
• There are active players of all level ranges actively leveling.
  Unlike a game that has been around a while and has a small group of players lower level you have a larger of players to pool from.
  
• No evidence to validate a cross server system.
  There are no hard evidence showing the number of players of each level to justify a cross server system. Some say low pop servers will not have enough players. The fact is they do not know for certain. This is one of the reasons for a phased implementation. Set it up server only and see how it develops. There has been 2 games to my knowledge that implemented a cross server system. TWO games is not sufficient pooling of different play styles to make this type of judgement and what works for one game may not work for another. If after the first phase there is a problem a cross server system can be piloted otherwise there is no need to open that can of worms.
  
• A non automated system does not mean a player has to spam General Chat.
  No one in any shape and form claims typing LFG <flashpoint> over and over and over creates or strengthened a community. A fully graphical interface can work just as good where a player can select flashpoints and or heroic quests that they are able to attend in a check-box or drop down menu. The fact that a player was not just tossed together into a group randomly the player has more of a vested interest in the success of the event. You see it now with war zones, players leave at the drop of a hat. Imagine spending 50mins to get a tank and they leave at a moments notice. Healer leaves shortly after and you have to start over a queue. The likely-hood of this happening when players form their own parties is greatly reduced.
  

Any questions?

[Kaelshi]

Don't get tied up in something that is going to take an hour. Go and do some farming or level an alt or something else but don't let x amount of people down because you want what you want NOW

 

If you are on call then you are being paid for the inconvenience. Don't go leaving people you do not know without a healer.

 

This is selfish and why I am against LFD.

 

LFD is all about the single player. Not enougth time to find a group.. then use LFD.. cannot be bothered looking for a group.. use LFD.. going to bail out after getting what you want.. use LFD.. quite likely going to let group down before end of run.. use LFD.. Want something to sell for credits,.. then run LFD and need on the item.. lull

 

so what if they put you on ignore list.. not like your reputation will suffer and you get the stuff you want.. win win...

 

This is what is wrong with LFD and why it erodes communities.

 

 

 

thank you for the SUPPORT of an LFD.

 

You are either supporting an LFD or outright saying that beacuse of my work and being a parent i should NEVER BE ALLOWED TO EXPERIENCE CERTAIN CONTENT.

 

I never did the previous for the reason you stated - I'm NOT a selfish jerk and am not going to put other games into that position.

 

I NEVER did dungeons/raids before LFD/LFR in WoW either(at least in many many years since I was not a parent/had this job when Vanilla was around).

 

There are MILLIONS of people like me who never have a chance to log on and just have 100% absolute free time with no potential for interference. You are arguing that they NEVER BE ALLOWED TO PLAY ENDGAME CONTENT.

 

Who's being selfish again?

[Kaelshi]

I'm going to make my point as clear and simple as possible.

 

At this point in the game life an automated cross server looking for group system is not needed.

 

Why?

• The inability to add new friends from the people you do interact with while running the event.
  One of the greatest things this game implemented is the easy way to add a friend when you complete a quest or flashpoint. If you don't like anyone you don't bother but if there was someone that stood out to you for whatever reason you can quickly and easily add them.
  
• Does not support finding groups for heroic quests.
  Because the heroic quests are semi instanced and part of the planet/zone load and some parts are outside of those semi instances you can't bring in people from other servers.
  
• There are active players of all level ranges actively leveling.
  Unlike a game that has been around a while and has a small group of players lower level you have a larger of players to pool from.
  
• No evidence to validate a cross server system.
  There are no hard evidence showing the number of players of each level to justify a cross server system. Some say low pop servers will not have enough players. The fact is they do not know for certain. This is one of the reasons for a phased implementation. Set it up server only and see how it develops. There has been 2 games to my knowledge that implemented a cross server system. TWO games is not sufficient pooling of different play styles to make this type of judgement and what works for one game may not work for another. If after the first phase there is a problem a cross server system can be piloted otherwise there is no need to open that can of worms.
  
• A non automated system does not mean a player has to spam General Chat.
  No one in any shape and form claims typing LFG <flashpoint> over and over and over creates or strengthened a community. A fully graphical interface can work just as good where a player can select flashpoints and or heroic quests that they are able to attend in a check-box or drop down menu. The fact that a player was not just tossed together into a group randomly the player has more of a vested interest in the success of the event. You see it now with war zones, players leave at the drop of a hat. Imagine spending 50mins to get a tank and they leave at a moments notice. Healer leaves shortly after and you have to start over a queue. The likely-hood of this happening when players form their own parties is greatly reduced.
  

Any questions?

 

I personally do not think it is needed RIGHT THIS second.

 

However - where did you pull 50 minutes from? If it takes you 50 minutes btw to find a tank from every server in the game - how long is it taking you to find them from JUST YOUR SERVER.

 

In WoW it would take at OFF PEAK hours maybe 5-10 minutes MAX to find a tank/healer both.

 

So would you rather have a healer drop from your lfd group and wait 5 minutes to find a new one, or would you rather have a healer drop from your server-side group and have to go back to fleet and take an hour to find a new healer willing to do half-finished op?

[ferroz]

I'm a fan of closed and exclusive recruitment and being able to actually meet and interact with a person before I make a proposition to apply. Cross-realm LFD discourages any effort to actually group up with the people you can later play with.

Actually, it's quite possible to do your preferred method of recruitment, even with cross server lfd. Likewise, cross realm lfd, in and of itself, doesn't discourage efforts to group with people that you can later play with. You're making assumptions about implementation that simply aren't a given.

 

This. And let's face it - everyone will be using it.

If it would be so overwhelmingly popular, it's kind of absurd to argue against it, eh?

 

 

At this point in the game life an automated cross server looking for group system is not needed.

So? At this point in the game life, a client to log into the game isn't needed either. It's something that people want, like like the LFD tool.

 

need is a red herring at best.

 

[*]Does not support finding groups for heroic quests.

Because the heroic quests are semi instanced and part of the planet/zone load and some parts are outside of those semi instances you can't bring in people from other servers.

No, this is a speculative statement, based on assumptions that may or may not be true. There's no reason to assume that they can't make it work for heroic quests. The entire game is instanced as it is.

 

 

Any questions?

Yes. Did you have any objective reasons not to add it? Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[DarthKhaos]

I personally do not think it is needed RIGHT THIS second.

 

However - where did you pull 50 minutes from? If it takes you 50 minutes btw to find a tank from every server in the game - how long is it taking you to find them from JUST YOUR SERVER.

 

In WoW it would take at OFF PEAK hours maybe 5-10 minutes MAX to find a tank/healer both.

 

So would you rather have a healer drop from your lfd group and wait 5 minutes to find a new one, or would you rather have a healer drop from your server-side group and have to go back to fleet and take an hour to find a new healer willing to do half-finished op?

I was just calling a number for how long a dps could wait for a party. And yes I have waited over 1hr for a party on my mage in WoW. I honestly do not know what the average wait time is because I did not research it. I was just using the number as an example.

 

So? At this point in the game life, a client to log into the game isn't needed either. It's something that people want, like like the LFD tool.

 

need is a red herring at best.

And from this thread alone it shows that people do not want a cross server system. Until BioWare poles the entire game population we would never truly know who's in the majority or minority.

 

Please realize these are my reasons why I believe a fully automated cross server lfg system is not needed.

Edited February 14, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Kaelshi]

I was just calling a number for how long a dps could wait for a party. And yes I have waited over 1hr for a party on my mage in WoW. I honestly do not know what the average wait time is because I did not research it. I was just using the number as an example.

 

 

And from this thread alone it shows that people do not want a cross server system. Until BioWare poles the entire game population we would never truly know who's in the majority or minority.

 

Please realize these are my reasons why I believe a fully automated cross server lfg system is not needed.

 

 

 

when did you wait that long? I dps'd on REGULAR dungeons to gear my healer and never waited more than 5-10 minutes. once I got up to Heroics it took a few minutes less.

 

I think you're just lying. That is such a HUGE discrepancy considering we are pulling from the same pool of LFD. I find it absolutely impossible that you ever waited an hour for a tank/healer.

 

It begs the question though - if you couldn't find a tank/healer in an hour while pooling from 10 million subscribers. What logic are you using that you would be able to pull it from a single server while spamming a channel LFG?

 

If your answer is 'well I'll get friends from my list or guildies" - then you can do that anyway.

 

It doesnt matter - you are just outright lying about the 1 hour thing to attempt and make a poor point.

[ferroz]

I was just calling a number for how long a dps could wait for a party. And yes I have waited over 1hr for a party on my mage in WoW. I honestly do not know what the average wait time is because I did not research it. I was just using the number as an example.

In wow, on my battle group (US) dps wait 10 minutes on a bad day. Getting a replacement tank if someone leaves is minutes; getting a replacement dps takes seconds. Supposedly the EU servers are slightly slower.

 

with a cross server queueing system: losing someone, even the tank or healer, is a minor inconvenience at worst.

without a cross server queueing system: losing someone, especially the tank or healer, is a major inconvenience and may mean that you're done with the flashpoint because of lack of time to replace the person and actually finish it. Even in the best of cases it's fairly major inconvenience.

 

The former encourages people to prioritize real life over the game, and the latter is the reverse. I personally feel that the former is a healthier for both the game as a whole, and the individuals playing it.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[DarthKhaos]

when did you wait that long? I dps'd on REGULAR dungeons to gear my healer and never waited more than 5-10 minutes. once I got up to Heroics it took a few minutes less.

 

I think you're just lying. That is such a HUGE discrepancy considering we are pulling from the same pool of LFD. I find it absolutely impossible that you ever waited an hour for a tank/healer.

 

It begs the question though - if you couldn't find a tank/healer in an hour while pooling from 10 million subscribers. What logic are you using that you would be able to pull it from a single server while spamming a channel LFG?

 

If your answer is 'well I'll get friends from my list or guildies" - then you can do that anyway.

 

It doesnt matter - you are just outright lying about the 1 hour thing to attempt and make a poor point.

Kirin-Tor Server. I stopped playing WoW around February last year.

And who said I was actively looking for members for my group. I queues and waited. Which is what most people do when they use the fully automated cross server lfg system.

Edited February 14, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Garigadam]

I have no personal problem with adding a cross server lfg tool. Will you run across some jerks? Probably fairly often . Will you run across people failing to grasp the concept of the flashpoint? Sure. But.. putting together a group at all, in a reasonable amount of time, is much easier.

 

I did find the social aspect of the runs in World Of Warcraft changed slightly after the implement of dungeon finder tool. But at the same time. I enjoyed logging on , asking in guild or in local channels if anyone wanted to run a particular dungeon. Taking the 1-3 people who may have spoken up, and queing for the final person. It cut down the time needed to find a full group, and at the same time, allowed for the meeting of new people, as well as a chance to play with someone whom i may have played with before.

 

Dungeon finder, is a tool. Use it if you have a hard time finding groups, if the hours you log on are off peak, or if you just want to quickly get in to a flash point. If however you find that your experience is more often than not , a poor one. Just don't use the Dungeon finder tool.

That was atleast my experience. And I walked out of many many instances successfully and on some occasions, I actually met a new friend in a lfg tool run, that was on my server that I had not run with before.

 

 

If they implement it, and it destroys the game for everyone, and guilds fall apart, and tatooine is faced with a global apocalypse . wookies every where lose all their hair, Ewoks suffer massive deforestation problems, and Jar Jar binks fails to ever be born. You can all blame me!

 

Ciao!

[ferroz]

Kirin-Tor Server. I stopped playing WoW around February last year.

yeah, the queue times have changed a lot since then.

 

And from this thread alone it shows that people do not want a cross server system.

That's a purely subjective reason.

 

it's fine to have a purely subjective reason for the things that you want for yourself. It's not ok to have purely subjective reasons for things you expect to be enforced on other people.

 

Please realize these are my reasons why I believe a fully automated cross server lfg system is not needed.

Ok, so you just have subjective/opinion based reasons. Got it.

[ferroz]

No, you're not forced to use it, but in many cases forced to use it to find groups since everyone has jumped on the bandwagon. What's called the path of least resistance. Something people have been stating for quite a while now, but no one seems to want to pipe up on it.

Choosing the path of least resistance is still a choice.

 

Really, it seems to me that the only situation where you would actually have any significant problems finding groups is if you're in such a tiny minority that all of your so called friends would prefer using it to the current method.

 

To me, it looks like you're saying: oh no, I know that everyone will prefer to do it this way, but I don't want to; my opinion is more important than theirs, so the game should enforce my method instead of allowing people to choose what they want.

 

I'm in favor of letting people choose.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[DarthKhaos]

That's a purely subjective reason.

I'm not being subjective. You said there's people who want it and I'm saying there's ALSO people who don't. You can see that is the case from this thread alone. The amount on each side is unknown because the majority of the player population was not questioned.

[Mcleavestein]

So.. It appears you are looking for convenient and easy.. Perhaps an MMO is not your cup of tea.. Convenient and easy is not what an MMO is about.. Unless of course you want to ruin it.. See WOW.. It is losing subscriptions for a reason..

 

 

 

Citation required.. If you are attempting to quote Bioware.. An actual quote would be nice..

 

Wow is 8 years old dude. It is by far the most successful MMO of all time, and it peaked AFTER the LFD was added. Arguing that WoW is losing subs because of the addition on one feature is ridiculous. One that is generally liked by the player base at that. Last time I played WoW, the biggest complaint on the forums was that the Dungeon Queue wasn't fast enough, at 15 minutes, lol.

 

No game is going to be top of the market forever, it is bound to lose subs eventually.

 

Convenient is what any game should be. Its a GAME, you know, for fun, right?

[ferroz]

I'm not being subjective.

Yes... you are.

 

You said there's people who want it

Subjective reason to add it, which is fine because they're not trying to force any choice (or anything really) on anyone else.

 

and I'm saying there's ALSO people who don't.

Subjective reason, which is not ok because they're insisting on enforcing their play style on other people.

 

You can see that is the case from this thread alone. The amount on each side is unknown because the majority of the player population was not questioned.

Majority vs minority isn't relevant to whether it's subjective or objective. You're giving purely subjective reasons to not add it. Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[iacovoss]

There are so many more issues then LFD.

Jesus you cant do /2 LFG (insert dungeon here) I owuld love to see your work ethic.

 

SLACKERS

[Kaelshi]

Kirin-Tor Server. I stopped playing WoW around February last year.

And who said I was actively looking for members for my group. I queues and waited. Which is what most people do when they use the fully automated cross server lfg system.

 

I suppose maybe you were not lying. I have no idea of queue times back then.

 

I will say this however - since you skirted it and did not answer.

 

If your queue times for a game-wide grouping system that has 10 million subscribers was an hour for a tank/healer.

 

How long do you think it would have taken you to find a tank/healer on JUST your server?

 

Your implication is that it would not take as long and you didn't want to wait 50 minutes.

 

The logical conclusion though is that trying to find tank/heals from a much smaller pool of people where they would be in even higher demand would take much much longer.

 

Your best bet would be to find a regularly group to raid with(and my posts talked about the issues I personally could have with that) and LFG is irrelevant to do you finding a group like that.

[Kaelshi]

There are so many more issues then LFD.

Jesus you cant do /2 LFG (insert dungeon here) I owuld love to see your work ethic.

 

SLACKERS

 

 

you are a young kid who clearly has no experience in life or obligations that take up the hours of your day and your opinion is less relevant since LFD does not ultimately effect you if you dont want to use it.

 

thanks though.

[Racheakt]

Ninjas are already here, under the guise of "rolling for my companion" and "I can use the mods"

 

A LFD does not create rude players, it just introduces them to you. I use the interstate analogy: Does the interstate make bad drivers or is it just a place you meet bad drivers?

 

Also to those saying "If this is done I will become a jerk" I hear "I am a jerk, who hides it"

 

Again LFD would be optional, you can spam general like you do now. Sometimes in WoW as a tank I would spam general for a healer, once i found one that worked well with me we used the LFD for random DPS.

 

Even without spamming general 95% of my WoW heroic runs were uneventful and pleasant. I don't know what was going on with some of these horror stories are happening, maybe the common factor in those bad runs were themselves? Who knows, maybe they were placed on so many ignore lists the only random runs they could get were with others that were on a large number of ignore lists?

[DarthKhaos]

ferroz you seem quite hostile in your responses. Are you ok?

 

Just because I may have a different point of view there is no need to blow a fuse. When a statement like

It's something that people want, like like the LFD tool.

pointing out that there's another side of the coin is logically going to happen especially with someone with an opposing point of view.

 

I get it you want a fully automated cross server LFG system badly. You want to place a blaster to the knee of anyone who disagrees with you. That still does not make the points I stated invalid.

[iacovoss]

you are a young kid who clearly has no experience in life or obligations that take up the hours of your day and your opinion is less relevant since LFD does not ultimately effect you if you dont want to use it.

 

thanks though.

 

Dude you cant type a sentence to look for a grp, common people.

 

ONE SENTENCE IN TRADE /2

Edited February 14, 2012 by iacovoss

[Kaelshi]

ferroz you seem quite hostile in your responses. Are you ok?

 

Just because I may have a different point of view there is no need to blow a fuse. When a statement like pointing out that there's another side of the coin is logically going to happen especially with someone with an opposing point of view.

 

I get it you want a fully automated cross server LFG system badly. You want to place a blaster to the knee of anyone who disagrees with you. That still does not make the points I stated invalid.

 

"this is me rolling my eyes"

 

Just because he disagrees with you and you are for whatever reason perceiving his responses as hostile does not mean he is hostile in his responses.

 

I see his responses as disputing yours, nothing else. When during your discussino you resort to "umadbro" tactics - that means you're losing the debate.

[Kaelshi]

Dude you cant type a sentence to look for a grp common people.

 

ONE SENTENCE IN TRADE /2

 

 

young one - one day soon you will learn. Until that time, let the adults talk.