Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Vlaxitov]

That's just it... when you have 3 servers in the same pool, the situation is not an average of the 3 numbers.

 

I'm just speechless... lol

[ferroz]

If they do not nerf content then they were wrong for instituting the tool.

your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

Since both are an answer to the same problem.

No, they're answers to different problems

 

To allow more people access to content.

The tool gives more people acceess to it. Nerfing the content does not.

 

If you have the tool without the nerf you are saying we want more people to have access to the content.

fixed.

[Asturias]

I know there are several threads on this, but I'd like to debunk some of the myths there are out there. Hopefully others will join and hopefully I might also actually see a legitimate reason to why BW shouldn't implement a LFD tool.

 

Anyway here goes:

 

 

1# A LFD tool will ruin/destroy the community.

 

People look at the LFD tool and claim that it goes against creating a community on the server. That's just not true at all, instead you should ask yourself, what Bioware can do to gather people around at specific places? - socialize as you call it.

 

Numerous suggestions have been made in the 'suggestion' forum e.g. card mini-games, expanded cantinas, an actual functioning Casino at Nar Shaddaa.

 

THESE are the things people should be complaining about and not things that might potentially ruin someone elses game because they choose a server that is now a low-pop server, or people who want's to get the most out of their playtime.

 

TL;DR - BW should make features/events that will gather people around at specific places to do stuff together.

 

2# It will all be about loot acquisition if the LFD tool is implemented.

 

It already is. People do FPs and hardmode FPs because they 1. just want to check out and 2. because they need the gear to progress. . A LFD tool WILL NOT hinder your enjoyment with friends/guildies, in fact it'll actually make it easier for people to play with friends/guildies.

 

3# We will see more 'thiefs' and people will be bad mannered.

 

Correct, however, we'll have the same issue regardless. There is NOTHING that is currenlty preventing people to already do that and in the month I've played the game I've never once seen someone yell out "don't play with Mr X because...", I've seen a couple of guilds being mentioned, but not the individual players no.

 

People don't automatically turn into 'thiefs' just because they won't see the other players again.

 

If anything you might notice it more because you'll be playing more. At any rate I doubt there's any real evidence suggesting that people become bullies and thiefs just because they won't the other rest of the group again.

 

4# "I don't want to play with random bad/clueless players".

 

Finding the players yourself won't prevent anyone from being clueless or bad and they'll still be random. Yes, you *might* potentially make a new friend, but a LFD tool doesn't hinder anyone in doing so anyway outside the FP.

 

5# Only lazy people wants a LFD tool.

 

Wait, what?! Spending 1-2 hours LFG in the fleet is 'fun' and socializing? It has nothing to do with being lazy, it has something to do with actually playing the game and a LFD tool will not hinder anyone from playing with friends.

 

6# If you don't have the time to find a group yourself you shouldn't be playing an MMO.

 

This is just plain wrong and I've seen people write this. a LFD tool is all about getting the most out of your time, espcially for people who don't have a lot of time, but enjoys the game and the universe. Are we just supposed to neglect those people?

 

To sum it up:

 

a LFD tool doesn't hinder people in making friends, the lack of social activities in the current state of the game, however, does. Besides you'll also be playing with 'doucebags' on your own server, a LFD tool will not make this worse, we'll instead be playing more and thus be seeing them more.

 

EDIT*

 

Anyway here something for people to chew on:

 

People claim that without a cross-server LFD tool they 'know' the server and they know who not to play with. There's a server-wide bond.

 

The thing is, studies have shown that it's not humanly possible for one person to know more than roughly 100 persons - sure they might remember more, but after a certain amount you'll forget facts about people.

 

If we use this study on a game like SWTOR, a game that might have 3500-4000 people on one server (a highly populated servers) the community aspect of the game suddenly becomes somewhat redundant - not that I'm discouraging it.

 

The thing is also that people have been claiming the LFD as a mean for 'douchebags' to just run rampant. Tell me though, with 1500 people on one side of the server, how can anyone prevent it anyway?

 

1. There's a limit on your ignore-list.

2. If someone is called out in the general chat, you most like won't remember them.

3. New alts and players arrives all the time.

 

If someone is serious about being an a-hole, there's no stopping the person. The person can just as well make an alt an start all over. After a couple of months everyone will have forgotten the persons main.

 

 

My personal experience with this game so far (I have a lvl 46 power tech + some alts) is that:

 

1. People I've quested with are sooner or later forgotten unless I play with them regularly.

2. I'm yet to encounter someone seriously determined to ruin a FP run.

3. I've never once seen someone being called out in the general chat so far.

 

Take it however you want. If you feel like disregarding it go ahead.

I There is no excuse for "NOT HAVING A LFG". I agree people claim it destroyed the community but it didn't but only evolved the MMO genre. There are two things this game needs and they are.

 

1. LFG/LFD why because majority of people play for a few hours and enjoy both PvP and PVE. Your always going to run into bad players no matter which method you use and if you prefer the old ways there is nothing preventing you from doing so.

 

2. Dual specs in AC why because there is a fundamental deference in both. Some players enjoy just healing while PVEing and than would like straight DPS in PvP. Keeping someone to a specific class spec is bad for most. With this said to the nah sayers on dual spec a skilled player will be skilled no matter how many spec he has for his toon and a bad player will be bad period.

 

For those who don't know the evolution of MMO how they took from each other as years went by.

 

Ultima online < Everquest/Asherons Call/DAOC< Everquest 2/World of Warcraft/Guild Wars< Next Gen such as Rift/SWTOR. Its a cycle and keeps improving so let's not go backwards but keep it going forward.

[ferroz]

When Rift launched the LFD tool the instances were nerfed.

there was a series of nerfs that predated lfd as well.

[DarthKhaos]

I know lots of math. Is there an error you'd like to point out?

Already did.

 

That's just it... when you have 3 servers in the same pool, the situation is not an average of the 3 numbers.

So care to enlighten the masses of the equation you used?

[Vlaxitov]

your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

 

Provide evidence for that outside of "cause I said so."

 

The tool gives more people acceess to it. Nerfing the content does not.

 

Nerfing content gives more people access to gameplay in a mmo just like nerfing standards in the NBA would give more people access to playing pro basketball. Its sooo simple.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Sylriana]

Really?

 

Please be more specific with what you mean. WoW nerfed the whole game, experience gain, faction requirements, dungeon content, at the same time they added daily dungeon rewards granted the tool wasn't auto grouping yet but it was there.

 

The easy content that everyone (primarily) raged about was released along with the 3.0 patch update (though even then not really, since they started reducing the difficulty of content late in the 2.x expansion cycle) The automatic, teleporting dungeonqueue you've been complaining about wasn't released until 3.3. If you're now complaining about the rudimentary LFG system that was already in place, well then we're already screwed since TOR currently has a really crappy LFG system too.

 

The larger point here though is that all of this is irrelevant. As the two are entirely different concepts, regardless of any tenuous correlations we can make.

 

But hell, if we're going to grasp at straws here, the 'hardest' 5-man dungeons of the expansion were released alongside the automatic dungeon finder, which naturally would be irrefutable proof that releasing an automatic dungeonfinder makes content significantly harder, not easier.

[Vlaxitov]

there was a series of nerfs that predated lfd as well.

 

You're right about that. They nerfed the dungeon content twice. After they added the LFD tool, the first nerf wasn't enough.

[ferroz]

Every mmo I've played that added auto grouping tools has been followed up with complaints about content difficulty which was followed up with content nerfs.

You're still only showing correlation, not actual causation.

[Amiracle]

there was a series of nerfs that predated lfd as well.

 

To prep for the tool with the final tweaks done after.

[Amiracle]

You're still only showing correlation, not actual causation.

 

Tool launches....QQ starts

 

 

Yup, they're not related.

 

Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean its not true.

[ferroz]

Already did.

No, you didn't actually.

 

So care to enlighten the masses of the equation you used?

60 minutes of queue time in that hour. 9 groups formed in that time, in that single queue. 60/9 = 6:40

 

is there something you don't understand about that?

 

Provide evidence for that outside of "cause I said so."

I'm guessing you don't know that phrase?

 

edit: to be clear.

 

premise: "If they do not nerf content"

conclusion: "they were wrong for instituting the tool."

 

The second statement does not logically follow from the first. There are lots of reasons to institute the tool that have nothing to do with whether they nerf content or not.

 

Nerfing content gives more people access to gameplay in a mmo just like nerfing standards in the NBA would give more people access to playing pro basketball. Its sooo simple.

False. Nerfing content allows more people to complete the content. Whether it's nerfed or not, the same people have access to it. Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[Yappiz]

the best solution imo would be the "old" wow lfg tool or at least if ppl want the so called "new" version at least make it realm wide but avoid xrealm.

 

the very community would be ruined from the very beginning if this tool would be integrated too soon or foolishly guys and this is not even a community yet,people just started to make links with other people around their own server there's not even any sort of strong linking between people and you wanna bring a dispersive tool in a freshly born game? something that at least needs a rocksolid strong community built in YEARS of playing before working for good and actually bringing benefit?

 

do you even realize that the LFG/LFD tool was brought in wow years after the release not because suddenly some guy in blizz team had this marvelous idea out of the blue,but instead the tool was brought in because they thought ENOUGH YEARS have passed since launch and people already had a solid position in their guilds and group of friends they got to know?!

 

look Im pretty sure most of yall ex-wow people remember the loading screen tip from blizzard suggesting "When interacting with other players a little kidness goes a long way!": well now that tip has no sense anymore since you end up playing with stragers and randoms who dont care about you for more than the instance time and maybe call you "priest" or "mr. shaman" so for what freaking reason in the world would you even care about "the long way"?

 

Speeding up the process of gearing and burning the content in less than a week only changed the rhythm of wow to a "job-like" standard where you have to rush for getting the new gears dropping from herbing or such cause the very basis of the game changed from fun to gears and this comes from a gear-whore like me who admits that the fun coming with gears lasts until you're geared up and thats it from then moment onwards you'll start to see people complaining on the forums "there's not enough content".

think about it and dont let this game be ruined by lazy people who just want the easy-win game easy gearing with no social aspect no reputation so that they can steal whatever they want and maybe leave the group to wiping cause they got "those 2 emblems they wanted" like it used to be in wow.

[ferroz]

Tool launches....QQ starts

 

 

Yup, they're not related.

 

Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean its not true.

actually, there were complaints in both wow and rift related to difficulty before lfd was added. So the "QQ starts" isn't a true statement.

[Amiracle]

Today , 09:08 AM

 

Report Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Progue

There it is, since I'm apparently not linking it correctly.

ah. I initially skipped reading that because the formatting was so messed up.

 

You're not correct about the amount of improvement it makes. Just increasing the number of people hitting the queue significantly improves queue time.

 

two cases

 

First case: 3 servers, single server lfg tool

 

server A: average wait time is ~15 minutes; so it forms a group every 15 minutes, on average, or 4 groups of people every hour.

server B: average wait time is ~20 minutes; so it forms a group every 20 minutes, on average, or 3 groups of people every hour.

server C: average wait time is ~30 minutes; so it forms a group every 30 minutes, on average, or 2 groups of people every hour.

 

Average wait time across servers = 20 minutes.

best average wait time across server= 15 minutes.

 

 

(15+20+30)/3=20???

[Vlaxitov]

The easy content that everyone (primarily) raged about was released along with the 3.0 patch update (though even then not really, since they started reducing the difficulty of content late in the 2.x expansion cycle) The automatic, teleporting dungeonqueue you've been complaining about wasn't released until 3.3. If you're now complaining about the rudimentary LFG system that was already in place, well then we're already screwed since TOR currently has a really crappy LFG system too.

 

The larger point here though is that all of this is irrelevant. As the two are entirely different concepts, regardless of any tenuous correlations we can make.

 

But hell, if we're going to grasp at straws here, the 'hardest' 5-man dungeons of the expansion were released alongside the automatic dungeon finder, which naturally would be irrefutable proof that releasing an automatic dungeonfinder makes content significantly harder, not easier.

 

3.0 was the expansion so you're basically saying that WoTLK released pre nerfed. If that was the case then it didn't get nerfed enough as it was decimated into being a game of chutes & ladders afterwards.

 

Then you mention what, halls of reflection? Thats the only 5 man that came close to demanding respect in WoTLK. People absolutely hated it when HoR was the dungeon their LFD put them in because it was such a pain to run successfully through LFD.

 

I'm failing to see your supposed points.

[Vlaxitov]

You're still only showing correlation, not actual causation.

 

You're still not pointing me to one mmo that the connection isn't there.

[ferroz]

To prep for the tool with the final tweaks done after.

Speculation at best.

 

Besides, as I recall, they did one before the tool was announced, and it created quite an uproar at the time.

[Amiracle]

actually, there were complaints in both wow and rift related to difficulty before lfd was added. So the "QQ starts" isn't a true statement.

 

Ah, semantics so you don't have to admit you are wrong.........nuff said.

[Ruudo]

I dont think an LFG tool will ruin anything, the contrary it will speed things up for Soloers that wanna do flashpoints.

 

BUT (yes thats a big but),

-Keep it server wide and not cross-server because THAT will kill the community,

-and Dont utilize instant port to Flashpoints (similar to Warzones,or Wow) because that will lead to empty worlds.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Ruudo

[harpuax]

There are lots of reasons to institute the tool that have nothing to do with whether they nerf content or not.

 

False. Nerfing content allows more people to complete the content. Whether it's nerfed or not, the same people have access to it.

 

There are lots of reasons, but the underlying reason, the reason the other reasons exist, the bottom line is, To allow more people access to content.

 

Content is not just the front door to the instance, it is the whole instance, right to the end. The last boss is just as much content as the first boss. If people cannot kill the first boss they cannot make it to the last. Therefore they miss out on content.

[ferroz]

Ah, semantics so you don't have to admit you are wrong.........nuff said.

No, semantics would be if i were arguing over word meanings. In this case, I'm pointing out that his sequence of events is wrong.

 

he claimed,

 

1. lfd
   
2. QQ starts
   
3. nerf
   

 

when the truth is that iwas more like

1. QQ starts
   
2. nerf
   
3. nerf
   
4. lfd
   
5. nerf
   
6. more QQ
   
7. nerf
   

 

 

You're still not pointing me to one mmo that the connection isn't there.

so? As I said earlier, that isn't actually meaningful. Edited February 14, 2012 by ferroz

[Vlaxitov]

I dont think an LFG tool will ruin anything, the contrary it will speed things up for Soloers that wanna do flashpoints.

 

Because MMORPG is a genre of game for soloers.

[Amiracle]

Speculation at best.

 

Besides, as I recall, they did one before the tool was announced, and it created quite an uproar at the time.

 

 

Speculation at best.

 

Besiades, as I recall everyone said when they planned on doing this that they would nerf the content like WoW did. But of course you choose to not see it.

 

Just like we are saying now but being that 2 previous games did exactly that there is no basis to form the same opinion.

 

Ignorance is bliss in your case.

[Vlaxitov]

so? As I said earlier, that isn't actually meaningful.

 

You can't even add and divide man. You aren't an authority of what is or isn't actually meaningful.