Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Illyean]

sp to recap....

 

some people prefer that some other people should not be allowed to use an optional new tool that will help these other people find more people to play the game with instead of them sitting around not playing the game trying to find people who are also not playing the game while some people play the game without needing this tool to help them find their own other people to play the game with?

 

is that right? in which case for the love of god give us a tool to find people to play the game and if you don't want to use it exercise your right not to. If I want to run an FP I'd rather run it now than in 20 minutes after trying to find other people who want to run it, I come here to play.

 

arguments that there are already things to make this happen are pointless, this is another tool, it isn't going to take anything away from anyone

[EvilTrollGuy]

Wow.. last time I checked (last night) there were roughly 850 replies and now there are 250+ in the new one.

 

Anyway here something for people to chew on:

 

People claim that without a cross-server LFD tool they 'know' the server and they know who not to play with. There's a server-wide bond.

 

The thing is, studies have shown that it's not humanly possible for one person to know more than roughly 100 persons - sure they might remember more, but after a certain amount you'll forget facts about people.

 

If we use this study on a game like SWTOR, a game that might have 3500-4000 people on one server (a highly populated servers) the community aspect of the game suddenly becomes somewhat redundant - not that I'm discouraging it.

 

The thing is also that people have been claiming the LFD as a mean for 'douchebags' to just run rampant. Tell me though, with 1500 people on one side of the server, how can anyone prevent it anyway?

 

1. There's a limit on your ignore-list.

2. If someone is called out in the general chat, you most like won't remember them.

3. New alts and players arrives all the time.

 

If someone is serious about being an a-hole, there's no stopping the person. The person can just as well make an alt an start all over. After a couple of months everyone will have forgotten the persons main.

 

 

My personal experience with this game so far (I have a lvl 46 power tech + some alts) is that:

 

1. People I've quested with are sooner or later forgotten unless I play with them regularly.

2. I'm yet to encounter someone seriously determined to ruin a FP run.

3. I've never once seen someone being called out in the general chat so far.

 

Take it however you want. If you feel like disregarding it go ahead.

Edited February 14, 2012 by EvilTrollGuy

[ispanolfw]

Because I disagree that the consequences as put forward exist.

 

Perhaps you can describe them to me? you must know, you keep insisting they exist.

 

I have, you choose to not read or ignore them. Feel free to go back and look. The thing is, you agreeing or not, doesn't change whether they exist or not. The simple fact that any amount of people will use the tool, pulls those people out of the pool for people not using the tool. I don't see how I could simplify that any further. You can disagree all you want, but that would be a consequence of choosing not to use it. Regardless of what you feel or think, or I feel or think, or Random Joe feels or thinks.

[ispanolfw]

Versus the people now that cannot get groups at all because of the server they chose to roll on, or the times that they can actually play?

 

I already touched upon that as a very good reason FOR the tool. And that's the thing, there are reasons for and against. But many don't want to accept(note, not agree) that the other side's reasons are very much valid. They would rather just go with "it's optional" and stop trying.

[darkcerb]

I have, you choose to not read or ignore them. Feel free to go back and look. The thing is, you agreeing or not, doesn't change whether they exist or not. The simple fact that any amount of people will use the tool, pulls those people out of the pool for people not using the tool. I don't see how I could simplify that any further. You can disagree all you want, but that would be a consequence of choosing not to use it. Regardless of what you feel or think, or I feel or think, or Random Joe feels or thinks.

 

It's not a matter of agree or disagree, I see no community as defined I see no socializing lost as defined, I don't believe LFG BLAH BLAH and pestering people via a who search count.

 

I have yet to see one logical negative besides a larger pool of people bringing you in contact with more d-bags, a point which I still can't relate to as defined.

 

If I haven't struck what you think are the consequences then you will have to enlighten me.

 

Have you accepted that the optional tool is truly optional yet, or do you still hold that After it's inception some mysterious force makes you use it. That you aren't making a conscious choice to use it? That whatever negative effect you perceive that has is not therefore accepted as a suitable risk by you?

Edited February 14, 2012 by darkcerb

[vandana_]

The thing is, studies have shown that it's not humanly possible for one person to know more than roughly 100 persons - sure they might remember more, but after a certain amount you'll forget facts about people.

 

As a GM of a small raiding guild being in the process of building from scratch I am against including cross-realm LFD at this stage of the game. Of course it is not possible to know everyone on the server but I regularly meet great players from my server by simply running flashpoints with them and since many people at this stage of the game are looking for guild - it's a great way to recruit. I'm a fan of closed and exclusive recruitment and being able to actually meet and interact with a person before I make a proposition to apply. Cross-realm LFD discourages any effort to actually group up with the people you can later play with.

 

I also believe running flashpoints with people from the same server is how communities are built. Sure, you won't know 90% of your server but you don't need to - it's enough when you have a chance to meet only some of the good players you wouldn't meet using LFD.

Edited February 14, 2012 by vandana_

[oursacrifice]

I already touched upon that as a very good reason FOR the tool. And that's the thing, there are reasons for and against. But many don't want to accept(note, not agree) that the other side's reasons are very much valid. They would rather just go with "it's optional" and stop trying.

 

Because it IS optional. That's why the discussion ends with that. You aren't forced to use it to find your group. You can always join a guild, ask from your friends list, or ask in chat and fill your group prior to queuing.

[ispanolfw]

It's not a matter of agree or disagree, I see no community as defined I see no lost socializing lost.

 

I have yet to see one logical negative besides a larger pool of people bringing you in contact with more d-bags, a point which I still can't relate to as defined.

 

If I haven't struck what you think are the consequences then you will have to enlighten me.

 

Have you accepted that the optional tool is truly optional yet, or do you still hold that After it's inception some mysterious force makes you use it. That you aren't making a conscious choice to use it? That whatever negative effect you perceive that has is not therefore accepted as a suitable risk by you?

 

First, why do you STILL bring up the community aspect? You know full well I'm not even going there with what i've been saying. And if you DON'T know, then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

The point is, you don't go around saying you disagree with something that actually happens. Ie if Cross Server LFD is implemented, some amount of people, large or small, will use it because they have the option to do so. Another amount of people will not use it because they have the option to do so. But that right there explains it. The ones who choose not to now have a smaller player base to work with when trying to make groups. Some of those people will refuse to use it, their choice. Some will not want to use it, but then decide to do so since they find it gets increasingly more difficult to find groups due to the lowered player pool to work with.

 

I myself fit more closely with that last one, I find it a necessarily evil after a point in time. Doesn't mean I think it's a good tool. And if what I dislike about the game, including the tool pushed past what I liked, i'd stop playing.

 

But in any case, that most certainly does happen, it's actually quite logical that it happens too. You have 100 players, 50 decide they will use the tool, 50 do not. Those 50 that do not just had the player pool cut in half. That's a negative for those people regardless of you agreeing with it or not.

[Mashy]

sp to recap....

 

some people prefer that some other people should not be allowed to use an optional new tool that will help these other people find more people to play the game with instead of them sitting around not playing the game trying to find people who are also not playing the game while some people play the game without needing this tool to help them find their own other people to play the game with?

 

is that right? in which case for the love of god give us a tool to find people to play the game and if you don't want to use it exercise your right not to. If I want to run an FP I'd rather run it now than in 20 minutes after trying to find other people who want to run it, I come here to play.

 

arguments that there are already things to make this happen are pointless, this is another tool, it isn't going to take anything away from anyone

 

Well said!

[ispanolfw]

Because it IS optional. That's why the discussion ends with that. You aren't forced to use it to find your group. You can always join a guild, ask from your friends list, or ask in chat and fill your group prior to queuing.

 

Oi, at least try, ok? I never said it wasn't optional, but you seem stuck on that. The consequences go beyond it being optional. You don't want to, or choose not to, or can't see what happens after the choice is in place. The system works a certain way, and you don't like that, some do. You want it changed, you now flip it to you like it, now they don't.

 

There are pros and cons on both sides, but if you choose not to accept or understand them, for both sides, why should your argument carry much weight?

 

Either way, sleep time. Will have 20 pages to read when I get up.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ispanolfw

[darkcerb]

First, why do you STILL bring up the community aspect? You know full well I'm not even going there with what i've been saying. And if you DON'T know, then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

The point is, you don't go around saying you disagree with something that actually happens. Ie if Cross Server LFD is implemented, some amount of people, large or small, will use it because they have the option to do so. Another amount of people will not use it because they have the option to do so. But that right there explains it. The ones who choose not to now have a smaller player base to work with when trying to make groups. Some of those people will refuse to use it, their choice. Some will not want to use it, but then decide to do so since they find it gets increasingly more difficult to find groups due to the lowered player pool to work with.

 

I myself fit more closely with that last one, I find it a necessarily evil after a point in time. Doesn't mean I think it's a good tool. And if what I dislike about the game, including the tool pushed past what I liked, i'd stop playing.

 

But in any case, that most certainly does happen, it's actually quite logical that it happens too. You have 100 players, 50 decide they will use the tool, 50 do not. Those 50 that do not just had the player pool cut in half. That's a negative for those people regardless of you agreeing with it or not.

 

You insist I accept the other side, and then deny your arguing about it.

 

And now you insist that even though the tool is optional and you can choose not to...you can't because everyone else has chosen too.

 

So basically it's the "my way or the high way" argument, if people have chosen what they prefer to use who are you to tell them not to?

 

Remembering that people have shown they can easily choose not to use a system even though it would make getting a group far easier.

 

You can't argue from atop the fence and the other side of it as you seem intent on, it makes your arguments illogical and nonsensical.

Edited February 14, 2012 by darkcerb

[oursacrifice]

Oi, at least try, ok? I never said it wasn't optional, but you seem stuck on that. The consequences go beyond it being optional. You don't want to, or choose not to, or can't see what happens after the choice is in place. The system works a certain way, and you don't like that, some do. You want it changed, you now flip it to you like it, now they don't.

 

There are pros and cons on both sides, but if you choose not to accept or understand them, for both sides, why should your argument carry much weight?

 

The same reason that your dismissive attitude towards the much larger playerbase that can't find groups because of a number of uncontrollable factors, and that you somehow believe you're entitled to not having the tool because it will hamper your own enjoyment of the game by "forcing" you to eventually use this tool because for reasons that NOBODY will ever understand, your entire guild and friends list is going to magically stop working leaving you with no "flashpoint pals" to run with.

 

There are zero cons to a tool that gives the entire playerbase a shot at seeing and potentially completing content. ZERO.

[vandana_]

The point is, you don't go around saying you disagree with something that actually happens. Ie if Cross Server LFD is implemented, some amount of people, large or small, will use it because they have the option to do so. Another amount of people will not use it because they have the option to do so. But that right there explains it. The ones who choose not to now have a smaller player base to work with when trying to make groups. Some of those people will refuse to use it, their choice. Some will not want to use it, but then decide to do so since they find it gets increasingly more difficult to find groups due to the lowered player pool to work with.

 

I myself fit more closely with that last one, I find it a necessarily evil after a point in time. Doesn't mean I think it's a good tool. And if what I dislike about the game, including the tool pushed past what I liked, i'd stop playing.

 

But in any case, that most certainly does happen, it's actually quite logical that it happens too. You have 100 players, 50 decide they will use the tool, 50 do not. Those 50 that do not just had the player pool cut in half. That's a negative for those people regardless of you agreeing with it or not.

 

This. And let's face it - everyone will be using it.

[EvilTrollGuy]

As a GM of a small raiding guild being in the process of building from scratch I am against including cross-realm LFD at this stage of the game. Of course it is not possible to know everyone on the server but I regularly meet great players from my server by simply running flashpoints with them and since many people at this stage of the game are looking for guild - it's a great way to recruit. I'm a fan of closed and exclusive recruitment and being able to actually meet and interact with a person before I make a proposition to apply. Cross-realm LFD discourages any effort to actually group up with the people you can later play with.

 

I also believe running flashpoints with people from the same server is how communities are built. Sure, you won't know 90% of your server but you don't need to - it's enough when you have a chance to meet only some of the good players you wouldn't meet using LFD.

 

Nobody is forcing you to use the LFD tool. If doing guild runs and you only need one DPS you're still very much free to just ask the general chat.

 

Besides, you'll still be meeting people on your server by doing planet-side heroics, dailies, pvp and hopefully BW will implement other features.

[ispanolfw]

You insist I accept the other side, and then deny your arguing about it.

 

And now you insist that even though the tool is optional and you can choose not to...you can't because everyone else has chosen too.

 

So basically it's the "my way or the high way" argument, if people have chosen what they prefer to use who are you to tell them not to?

 

Remembering that people have shown they can easily choose not to use a system even though it would make getting a group far easier.

 

You can't argue from atop the fence and the other side of it as you seem intent on, it makes your arguments illogical and nonsensical.

 

I accept the pros and cons of both sides. Accepting as in understanding. Not necessarily agreeing.

 

The tool is optional, you can choose not to. But you will have a harder time finding groups if you do not. Barely harder? Impossible to find groups harder? Who knows, it still remains it will be more difficult.

 

And yes, people do that all the time, choose not to use it because they dislike it or don;t like using it or whatnot. That still does nothing to negate the fact that many people will still use it and limit the pool of non users.

 

Many of the people here have voiced an opinion, on how they feel it should work. But some take it further and try to invalidate any con against their side. This is on both sides mind you, they just seem more prevalent on the Pro Side. Not agreeing with something being a con, doesn't make it not a con, it just means you disagree. I look at what everyone says, and think about it multiple ways. My way, and many other ways others may see it. Many people do not do this, by choice, because they never tried, or who knows.

[Tic-]

Because its just another step that makes this game exactly like WOW?

 

Is that a legit reason? No, definetly not. Its more personal.

 

I'm tired of playing WoW and games that just have you do the same things as it.

 

This game deserves a LFD tool. You can't copy WoW to the extent BIO did, and leave out something as commonplace as its LFD tool, people will complain. Its just another thing in the long list people will want from that game, and will keep asking for.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Tic-

[ispanolfw]

The same reason that your dismissive attitude towards the much larger playerbase that can't find groups because of a number of uncontrollable factors, and that you somehow believe you're entitled to not having the tool because it will hamper your own enjoyment of the game by "forcing" you to eventually use this tool because for reasons that NOBODY will ever understand, your entire guild and friends list is going to magically stop working leaving you with no "flashpoint pals" to run with.

 

There are zero cons to a tool that gives the entire playerbase a shot at seeing and potentially completing content. ZERO.

 

One, prove it's much larger. I make no claims about the size of the groups, you do. Yes it sucks to be those people, yes we need something to help. Is Cross server LFG the way, maybe, maybe not. I personally dislike it, but I can see how very useful it is to some. I can also see how punishing it can be to those who choose not to use it.

 

I have never argued to not have or to have it. I personally dislike it, that's all. I'm not entitled to anything, but neither are you, at least beyond what the game/devs/whatever give us. Ie if they implement the tool, so be it, if they do not, so be it. I do not force you to play a game you do not like, nor do I tell you not to play it. That's entirely up to you. I do have a dislike for people that like to change a game such as an mmo to their liking at the detriment of others who already like it.

 

And you're still stuck on the point of having a choice and nothing more. You already have a choice as it is, it works both ways, see? Your choice of not wanting(or not able, life is funny that way) to spam for hours and whatnot gets you no groups, that's a big negative, and a good reason FOR the tool.

[ispanolfw]

Nobody is forcing you to use the LFD tool. If doing guild runs and you only need one DPS you're still very much free to just ask the general chat.

 

Besides, you'll still be meeting people on your server by doing planet-side heroics, dailies, pvp and hopefully BW will implement other features.

 

And here's the thing. "You can still do it" Doesn't mean the same thing as "your game experience will remain the same"

 

Gah, and I said it earlier, SLEEP! I'll read the pages I missed when I get up.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ispanolfw

[Concession]

OP is mostly right except the theif part.

 

SWG had next to ZERO issues when it came this this cause the community came otgether and Blacklisted fools/idiots/theives/baddies

 

Had it been MCPS/LFG X server--- we would of been ****ed

 

We were a well oiled ocmmunity - but there is no such thing as community in a themepark game so perhaps a LFG tool won't be as damaging. It seems to ahve worked out decently well in other themepakrs games, i don't see a direct reason why it wou'dn't in TOR

[darkcerb]

I accept the pros and cons of both sides. Accepting as in understanding. Not necessarily agreeing.

 

The tool is optional, you can choose not to. But you will have a harder time finding groups if you do not. Barely harder? Impossible to find groups harder? Who knows, it still remains it will be more difficult.

 

And yes, people do that all the time, choose not to use it because they dislike it or don;t like using it or whatnot. That still does nothing to negate the fact that many people will still use it and limit the pool of non users.

 

Many of the people here have voiced an opinion, on how they feel it should work. But some take it further and try to invalidate any con against their side. This is on both sides mind you, they just seem more prevalent on the Pro Side. Not agreeing with something being a con, doesn't make it not a con, it just means you disagree. I look at what everyone says, and think about it multiple ways. My way, and many other ways others may see it. Many people do not do this, by choice, because they never tried, or who knows.

 

I see there arguments But when in all my many years of mmo gaming (EQ, wow's release through to rift) I have never seen the arguments as defined.

 

And if you insist on defending both your own and there pov you had best read up on the arguments in question.

 

"They have arguments that you must acknowledge without evidence or experience of your own to relate because I say so, No I wont defend there points but will continue to bring them up and berate you with them."

 

Doesn't make for a very logical point of view. And if you're surprised I hold to that point then I don't know what to tell you.

 

As to you're point over how much harder it will be without the tool? I can't see it being much harder then it is now, especially for low pop servers and definitely for republic side everywhere. So if you Choose not to use the tool, you'll get groups but you wont get the volume of groups others would that should be a common sense thing given that you wont have access to the same large pool of players from other servers.

 

But apparently it needs saying.

 

That doesn't make it any less optional and never will.

 

It just means that you make the choice and accept any consequences.

[knightblaster]

Something I posted on this yesterday in a different thread:

 

Pre-WoW games were either sandbox (SWG, EVE) or quite hard in terms of time-consumption. This made them less casual friendly (no logging in for an hour or two and running 2-3 instances), and therefore less popular, but much more community-oriented. Not saying that was better (was bad for people who were time-poor), but everything was community-dependent. There was no badge system -- there were only item drops. Heck in Everquest the dungeons were not instanced, so you had groups competing for mob spawns in dungeons. There were some mobs that only spawned once every 24 hours, and had needed gear drops and so on. It was just completely different.

 

Post-WoW it became more oriented towards "getting things done in an hour or two", which made it more friendly to more people (hence the explosion in player populations in MMORPGs), but also made the community increasingly "optional" and, for many players, outright disliked outside their guilds (references to other players as "pubbies", turning off chat other than guild chat and so on).

 

Neither is better or worse, each has pluses and minuses, but there is no going back to the old way. The new way is here to stay. And the new way isn't about community, it's about a manageable gaming session for the average player who has limited time. This is why LFD/LFR is popular -- it's much more efficient. And that makes sense, because the "cost" to community is overblown --> WoW really didn't have a great "community", or much of a community to speak of at all, prior to LFD, so the concern about community is mostly misplaced. All it does is make pugging easier and more anonymous and for the average player, trying to make a bit of progress with limited time to play, it's a big advantage over any system that is more time consuming or "community"-dependent.

[Agrimax]

The main growth in WoW subs happened in TBC, it was at over 9million subs within about 6months of that release back in 2007. There was no LFD then, there were lots of timesinks and extremely long dungeon runs (after hours of grinding to get a heroic key, it could take several hours to complete one even with a competent group). It’s completely disingenuous to suggest that the ‘casualization’ of WoW is what created the mass market for MMO’s.

 

Maybe a lot of players do expect these sorts of features now. The fact there’s a debate at all suggests that at the very least there’s a significant minority who don’t and there’s everything to suggest that ToR will be just as successful appealing to a smaller niche rather than attempting to take on WoW (where so many have failed).

 

As for people needing manageable gaming sessions, the majority of complaints are from people sitting at 50 for over a month who have run out of content. I somehow doubt they’ve been playing the odd couple of hours here and there to have managed 5+ days of solid play (and most likely a lot more) in the last 7-8 weeks required to get there.

[Mephismo]

I can also see how punishing it can be to those who choose not to use it..

 

How ?

[Kaelshi]

How ?

 

I can, in theory , answer this.

 

According to anti-x-server lfd people - by implementing a tool they choose not to use, their will be less people interested in joining a server-side group because of the downsides(the biggest one imo being if a group member has to drop suddenly).

 

I would argue though that these people are doing nothing but harming themselves - nothing stops them from group with their friends/guildies if they want, and if they are just lookin for a PUG the advantage of being able to add a group member with relatively little hassle is such a huge advantage there is no reason to pug server-side.

 

There next argument is that is destroying the community - this leads to the obvious question of "when is the last time you ever heard someone say "I love pugs". Never.

[Kaelshi]

As a GM of a small raiding guild being in the process of building from scratch I am against including cross-realm LFD at this stage of the game. Of course it is not possible to know everyone on the server but I regularly meet great players from my server by simply running flashpoints with them and since many people at this stage of the game are looking for guild - it's a great way to recruit. I'm a fan of closed and exclusive recruitment and being able to actually meet and interact with a person before I make a proposition to apply. Cross-realm LFD discourages any effort to actually group up with the people you can later play with.

 

I also believe running flashpoints with people from the same server is how communities are built. Sure, you won't know 90% of your server but you don't need to - it's enough when you have a chance to meet only some of the good players you wouldn't meet using LFD.

 

Nothing is stopping you from meeting people. As has been pointed out ad-naseum, the content you would be tackling as a guild is not available in WoW's LFR tool, for example, and for flashpoints in particular your small RAIDING guild will have plenty of people I'm guessing.

 

I am the GM of a small raiding guild as well and see nothing but advantages to an LFG tool. It allows members to run groups when a majority of us are not necessarily online(90% of us are working adults or parents) and obtain gear that will HELP us run the raid content.

 

OUR community is/will continue to be strong as LFG will not effect the community within out close knit guild.

 

IF there is any downside, and it is one I am perfectly happy to accept, is a large part of our recruiting is running pug's with people and inviting them if we mesh with them - however by the time we are level-capped and raiding I suspect it wont be a big deal.

 

And it is fair to mention - again - that there is in WoW and likely will be here content that you can NOT use the LFD tool for and so those opportunities to meet people in content will still exist.