"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[JKhayos]

Didn't expect this thread to get more replies. Alas, it has.

 

Firstly, for the nitwits saying my logic is akin to WoW's classes, it's not. That would be me asking to be able to swap to Inquisitor from Warrior, which I don't support. My request is more like asking to be able to change from Restoration to Feral Kitty, all within the Druid tree. That IS an ability in that "other" game and it took a long time to be implemented, but has been incredibly successful in its implementation. I will speak from experience again that in that "other" game, all of my hybrids had dual spec, and I was capable performing both roles. There were NUMEROUS times that I needed to swap between DPS, tanking, or healing, and was thankfully able to. Additionally, my raid team members were able to, and we were able to down content for it. I also was able to level much more efficiently as a DPS from 80-85 in the preferred DPS spec, but still able to queue for dungeons and heal/tank them as necessary. Yes, ACs have heal/tank specs in addition to DPS specs. Sure. I'd align them more along the idea of the various "haste builds" or "spellpower builds" that were once dominant in WoW though. It's not really something that can be truly compared, because it's two entirely different systems between the two games and SWTOR adds an extra tier of interest. Those of you "crediting" me with some bizarre, misaligned, illogical leap should probably take a look at your own reasoning and relationship skills.

 

Secondly, yes, I can reroll Republic. I'd like to try Republic someday. But in the meantime, playing a Jedi makes me want to ragequit. I don't like the community I've experienced Republic side, I especially don't like the stories, and I don't like the armor. Maybe someday that will change. However, I suspect most of the naysayers to this idea are Republic, so I'm not motivated by any means. (Goes back to community.) Yes, I can roll another of the same class. I might just do that. I just feel that it's not something we should do, as the change I'm asking refers to talents and etc that's already attached to the class, or at the very least, my character.

 

No, I'm not leveling without selecting an AC. That doesn't help anyone nor solve any problems.

 

Thirdly, I'm by no means suggesting that obtaining this ability to swap AC should be simply a matter of credits. I'd be happy, nay, ECSTATIC, to spend a few hours (and thus, money) following another questline to unlock that second tier. Personally, I think it's more legit than paying for it, because my characters want to amass all the knowledge they can. Yes, Vader used a single lightsaber. Yes, Maul used a double-bladed saber. But does that mean they were incapable of using other weapons? No, it was a matter of preference, which is why it's called "Main spec." To become truly proficient with that alternate weapon, they'd have to practice with it, which is another reason the quest chain seems halfway decent.

 

Lastly, I'll expand on a few points I snagged while skimming through the replies. The main story arc is not significantly different, or so the impression is being given to me about Inquisitor and other Empire classes. (Maybe it's different for Republic.) I will be doing the exact same class quests, no matter what AC is chosen. Yes, I'm aware that I'll be doing the same side story quests no matter what class I choose. I can, however, choose which of those I want to do. Personally, I find it lacking that we have relatively limited paths to 50. WoW had a few different paths to max level pre-Cata and you could easily avoid zones you deeply hated on your way. I do NOT expect BW to have that much content installed into the game this early. Vanilla WoW certainly didn't, and I dare say that you couldn't pick and choose paths until Wrath popped and were stuck in hated, terrible zones until Outland. Cata freed it up, to be sure. And I'll stomach waiting til the expansion for new zones, there's other classes I can explore in the meantime. I'm also not asking for Dual Spec to be implemented RIGHT NOW, because I know that takes time. I'm merely presenting an argument against a stance someone from BW has taken and urging a reconsideration of that stance. Thankfully, someone who is either not at work or more free to type took up my gauntlet and expanded on it.

 

Either way, it's kind of irrelevant what we think to a certain extent. BW has stockholders to keep happy, so if they've gotta pull punches to keep subs up, then that's what they'll do. All this drama over opinions is goofy.

[VanorDM]

Firstly, for the nitwits saying my logic is akin to WoW's classes, it's not.

 

Nice start off with an insult... That's the best way to make a point. Oh and you're wrong, what you are asking for is exactly that. The ability to change your class.

 

You even quoted Bioware saying as much. Unless you feel that your opinion should carry more weight then that of the Dev's.

[MajikMyst]

I would be fine with a "ONE-TIME-ONLY-ONCE-YOU-DO-IT-YOU-CAN-NEVER-GO-BACK" scenario.

 

The only problem with that is that if you allow something once.. This forum will be flooded with countless threads wanting to do it again.. If we can allow it once, we can use the same logic and arguement to allow it twice. Or 5 times or more.. Why have a limit??

 

You have to know that you are going to have people say they hated the new AC and needs to switch back..

 

Bottom line is that any class switching is a bad thing.. What is the point of having classes if people can change at will?? Or just once??

 

Ever wonder why Mists of Pandera will be the end of WOW's talent trees?? Dual speccing rendered them useless.. Why have them if people can change their spec at will.. Many people had a third and forth spec memorized that they could quickly make and switch too.. Every Paladin in my guild had a heal spec, tank spec, and a ret spec.. Switching to any of them was pretty easy..

 

The same holds true for AC switching.. Why have them if people will be allowed to switch..

 

This point is always ignored.. If you selected your AC during character creation, we wouldn't be having this debate.. It is only because we select it at lvl 10 that people believe it is a viable suggestion to change their AC.. They would be incorrect.. I wish Bioware would make it so that we selected our AC during character creation.. That would end these debates..

Edited February 14, 2012 by MajikMyst

[photometrik]

Firstly, for the nitwits saying my logic is akin to WoW's classes, it's not. That would be me asking to be able to swap to Inquisitor from Warrior, which I don't support. My request is more like asking to be able to change from Restoration to Feral Kitty, all within the Druid tree.

 

Stop right here. This is where I believe you are wrong.

 

Restoration and Feral are Talent trees for a single class in WoW, yes? When you choose an Advanced Class in SWTOR, what are you given? That's right, Skill (Talent) trees.

 

The only real difference between WoW Talent trees for a class and SWTOR Skill trees for an Advanced Class is the fact that one tree is shared between the two ACs. A lot of the time, it seems, that tree is strictly for utility purposes, so it makes sense that they are shared.

 

However, you still have two trees left that perform vastly different roles. For example, Sages have a healing tree and a ranged dps tree. Shadows have a tanking tree and a melee dps tree. Commandos have a healing tree and a ranged dps tree. Vanguards have a tanking tree and a hybrid melee/ranged dps tree. This is the exact same as a class in WoW. A Shadow does not play like a Sage, at all. A Commando does not play like a Vanguard, at all.

 

I am very sorry, but I simply do not understand how you cannot see this.

[VanorDM]

Restoration and Feral are Talent trees for a single class in WoW, yes?

 

I'll go a step farther.

 

I quite simply don't care in the least how they did it in WoW, or any other MMO, because I'm playing SWTOR and not some other MMO.

 

How druids worked in WoW is completely meaningless when we're talking about Advanced Classes in SWTOR. Different system, different game, so it has no bearing on how things should or do work here.

Edited February 14, 2012 by VanorDM

[photometrik]

I'll go a step farther.

 

I quite simply don't care in the least how they did it in WoW, or any other MMO, because I'm playing SWTOR and not some other MMO.

 

How druids worked in WoW is completely meaningless when we're talking about Advanced Classes in SWTOR. Different system, different game, so it has no bearing on how things should or do work here.

 

 

True, but it is the most basic and easy to understand comparison I can make to prove a point. A very large number of people here played WoW or at the very least understand how the game works. Therefore, it is a decent framework for an argument. The same can be said for using the research and textbooks written on a certain subject to prove a point in any debate.

 

Anyways, I'm definitely not arguing with you here, because you and I are on the same side of the Advanced Class debate. Even without using WoW as a comparison, the fact of the matter remains that aside from a very select few skills, the ACs are vastly different from one another.

 

Shadow =/= Sage, Scoundrel =/= Gunslinger, Vanguard =/= Commando, Guardian =/= Sentinel. The same goes for the Empire mirror classes, naturally. You should not ever be able to freely (or even for a ridiculous amount of credits) switch between these classes.

Edited February 14, 2012 by photometrik

[Glowrod]

I think the real problem is even more fundimental. People have touched on the edge of it but don't quite go there.

 

The problem is that no one wants to do the quests a second time. Once is enough. I've seen one other game that uses story driven quests and I think this game is superior to other games in every single other way, but I couln't play it longer than it took me to level a couple of classes. After that, the game became dreadfully boring because it's all the same.

 

swtor is far from superior in most categories, and they also use a story driven quest line.

 

The games that enjoy long term success seem to be the ones that have an open quest type of system; let the players go where they want when they want and don't lock them in. Then questing is much more enjoyable and people are ok with leveling different classes.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Glowrod

[Inarai]

Thank you.

 

*bows*

 

I've been involved in this discussion since the first time it came up on these boards. So I've heard it all now.

 

My fav was the post that basically said that Advanced Class respecs should be allowed, because they're not really classes. If they were really classes they'd be called classes...

 

I don't think I need to point out the illogic in that statement.

 

...

 

Are you referencing the thread I think you're referencing? Poster's name started with a "J", was fixated on the Operative and the Sniper?

 

In any case, nothing about similar questing changes the fact that AC's are different classes. Most games, there's no differences in the questing at all - that's just not part of the definition of a class.

 

And class switching is ridiculous on the face of it.

[Autorch]

Saying that Sorceror to Assassin is the same scope of change as going from Mage to Rogue is to view things through a different lens from the OP. It's oversimplifying.

 

From an object-oriented programming perspective, that comparison isn't actually valid--that's pretty much comparing apples to oranges.

 

Being a programmer myself, let me try to explain it like I and obviously several other posters understand it, which is through the lens of polymorphism and inheritance. This just in the interest of fostering understanding.

 

To an OO programmer a "base class" means a code object that has the ability to go from general to specific in its definition, as other classes inherit its basics.

 

(Technically a base class can refer to something that itself inherits from other even more generalized base classes, but in loose talk it's kind of like the atom--you know, you don't need to divide it any further. It's an adult with no parents. Inherits from nothing.)

 

Inherited classes take a base class and bolt onto it, retaining all the features and capabilities of the original, and then extends and modifies them. Inherited classes move the definition of the object from the generalized to the specific.

 

Example: 4-Wheeled Land Vehicle is my base class. It has four wheels, rubber tires, an engine, and other base characteristics you'd expect from most 4-wheeled land vehicles.

 

Now, I make a new class that inherits from 4WLV, and I call it Sports Car. I don't have to create things like four wheels with rubber tires and an engine, because those already came with 4WLV. I might make the tires smaller and wider, the engine a V8 and turbocharged, and so forth.

 

But the base characteristics are the same: Sports Car HAS AN engine. Sports Car HAS 4 wheels and rubber tires.

 

Then I make another class that inherits from 4WLV, and I call it Truck. Truck is quite different from Sports Car. The engine is different, the tires are bigger, there might even be more than 4 wheels. But it IS going to have an engine, and there will be at LEAST four wheels.

 

From a programmer's perspective, I can absolutely change a Sports Car into a Truck. When that happens I lose everything that was specific to Sports Car, and I gain what Truck does, but I always retain what 4 Wheeled Land Vehicle had for me. I retain the commonality.

 

That's called casting--changing an object of one type to another, which you're able to do when they inherit from the same base--4 Wheeled Land Vehicle in this example.

 

Let's say I have another base class: Fixed Wing Air Vehicle. It has wings, minimum two engines, and so forth. From Fixed Wing Air Vehicle I make two new inherited classes: Fighter and Passenger Jet.

 

Now, I can turn a Sports Car into a Truck, and I can turn a Fighter into a Passenger Jet. I cannot change from a Fighter into a Truck, because I can't change the base class--I can't change a 4-Wheeled Land Vehicle into a Fixed Wing Air Vehicle.

 

Thus, the comparison of changing Mage to Rogue is the same as the comparison of 4-Wheeled Land Vehicle to Fixed Wing Air Vehicle. It's invalid. They are two different things at a base level.

 

One's combat mechanic is Energy and the other is Mana in that situation; this is as different from each other as "flying" is to "driving".

 

For nitpickers, if you're wanting to interject at this point that there are very different WoW classes that still share the same base combat mechanics, congratulations, you've missed the point. In that situation you're simply describing a different level of inheritance anyway.

 

That's why the comparison of changing Sports Car to Truck is more accurate. They share the same base class. They are NOT two different things at a base level. They are both "driving".

 

That the base-class/inherited class thing is how to accurately describe what's going on here is very obvious to any OO programmer. It's just not even up for grabs. A base SWTOR class shares the same base combat resource mechanic, it shares its class quest, its starting planet, one of its talent trees, a slew of its abilities, and so on.

 

It's a base class absolutely, and the AC's are the inherited classes because they retain the base class and then modify and extend that.

 

So in terms of this discussion, the first group is saying "can we change from Car to Truck?" and the second group is going "NO! You can't change from Fighter to Truck!", and the first group is going "but that's not what we said."

 

Now, you can chalk that up to a difference of perspective. As a matter of logic, the logical operation here is simply the comparison of similar things. Those in the second group have a much tighter definition of "completely different", and aren't really open to much nuance on that.

 

The first group is really on stronger logical ground. OK, if Mage to Rogue is as similar as Sorceror to Assassin, then you should be able to name a list of class abilities that Mages and Rogues share, and the amount of the same resource it costs them to use.

 

There aren't any, because Rogues don't use Mana any more than Mages use Energy.

 

In response, you definitely know there's a list of the class abilities that Sorcerors and Assassins share: same ability, same name, same combat resource. And you know they share way more than just the abilities.

 

That's why the WoW classes comparison isn't accurate--it's massively oversimplified. People saying otherwise are misrepresenting the OP, which means you're attacking a straw man, aka "He Didn't Say That, But You Said He Said That".

[grandmasterub]

I am for a questline to switch from one AC to another within the same BC.

 

The quest is repeatable once every 30 days...

 

I would like a sage or commando healer... But I already leveled both a vanguard and a shadow... Why can't I retrain one? Doing the same story again is bleh. And rolling opposite faction defeats the purpose of having a healer to play with my friends...

 

Its not really game breaking...

[HKFortyEight]

I am for a questline to switch from one AC to another within the same BC.

 

The quest is repeatable once every 30 days...

 

I would like a sage or commando healer... But I already leveled both a vanguard and a shadow... Why can't I retrain one? Doing the same story again is bleh. And rolling opposite faction defeats the purpose of having a healer to play with my friends...

 

Its not really game breaking...

 

Because they are different classes and people have already given reasons as to why it is game breaking.

[Gwena]

Hmm, I don't think people should normally be able to switch between AC's. But, I do think you should be able to switch AC's one or two times in total, with the second change having to be done within a fairly limited amount of time as an "oh crud, this is terrible, what did I just do?" button.

 

This way, if you wanted to play both AC's you'd still need 2 characters, but you would be allowed to change your mind once without having to remake your character and go through a nearly-identical leveling route again. And if once to change you mind was not enough, pffft, too bad! No need to disallow this option due to people who will just want more, classes get buffed and nerfed all the time and that is just a part of MMO's. This switch would be for people who had made a mistake in selecting their AC or realized that they do not enjoy that particular play style or enjoy a different one better, yet still like their base class.

 

If AC's being "fundamentally different class designs" included more than just the play style -- companions, story, voice, dialogue, armor, aesthetics -- I'd say no to any switching though. As others have mentioned, AC's may be very different in play style, and the regular quests are the same, but there is more to the leveling experience than that.

 

Just my two cents. Apologies for any way-off-the-mark comments; I haven't played WoW so some of this discussion just zipped right by me.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Gwena

[Dajing]

This is the stuff that breaks an MMO,wake up

[twinionx]

The reason for no AC respec is nonsense. There already is a fundamental difference between a tank and dps or a dps and healer in terms of playstyle. Yet they are giving dual-spec a consideration.

 

ACs share same class story (THAT CANNOT BE SKIPPED, unlike 80% of common quests), same companion, same starship and 80% of same common skills, same stats, same gear etc...

 

So I don't see why they are two different classes.

[Spero-Mcgee]

Thank you.

 

*bows*

 

I've been involved in this discussion since the first time it came up on these boards. So I've heard it all now.

 

My fav was the post that basically said that Advanced Class respecs should be allowed, because they're not really classes. If they were really classes they'd be called classes...

 

I don't think I need to point out the illogic in that statement.

 

You good sir, seem to know what you are talking about and seem to have some keen insight in this matter, I have a request to make, could you look at my post on page 2 and share your thoughts on it? Thx in advance.

[HKFortyEight]

The reason for no AC respec is nonsense. There already is a fundamental difference between a tank and dps or a dps and healer in terms of playstyle. Yet they are giving dual-spec a consideration.

 

ACs share same class story (THAT CANNOT BE SKIPPED, unlike 80% of common quests), same companion, same starship and 80% of same common skills, same stats, same gear etc...

 

So I don't see why they are two different classes.

 

Yes but there is more of a difference between a ranged healer or ranged DPS and a melee Tank or melee DPS; some do not share the same gear and most don't share skills.

 

Based upon what you said you would want to change from a rogue to a warrior or rogue to priest in a game like WoW.

[VanorDM]

The problem is that no one wants to do the quests a second time.

 

There's a major flaw in that line of thinking.

 

In every other MMO out there that I have played, there's no difference in quests between 1 and Max for the most part.

 

Start any character in Champions Online for example, and it's the same exact quest line from 1 to 40. Start a character of the same race in WoW and you have the same choice in quest lines you do with every other character. Even if you pick a different race only the starter area is different. Get into the outlands and beyond and it's the same exact thing for every character. City of Heroes had maybe 2 lines from 1 to max when I played it.

 

So this idea that somehow the class quests being the same is a reason, simply doesn't hold water, because SWTOR already offers more class based content then any other MMO out there. In other MMO's playing a 2nd character of the same faction means going though much the same content over again.

 

...

 

Are you referencing the thread I think you're referencing? Poster's name started with a "J", was fixated on the Operative and the Sniper?

 

Maybe... don't remember who it was. Just remember seeing one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen. That somehow the phrase Advanced Class was proof that they aren't really classes because it doesn't have the word class in it...

 

could you look at my post on page 2 and share your thoughts on it? Thx in advance.

 

I did and I think you're pretty much dead on. Somehow this idea that the fact that you share a quest line is an acceptable reason to allow AC switching is nonsense at best.

 

The fact is, as I pointed out above, most other MMO's have very little difference in terms of leveling content. So playing a Sentinel after a Guardian isn't really much different then playing a Mage after playing a Warrior. Plus as you pointed out, you have options that aren't in other games. You could play a Female Light side Guardian and a Male Dark side Sentinel, which would give at least a slightly different journey from 1st to max.

Edited February 15, 2012 by VanorDM

[Lauski]

There's a major flaw in that line of thinking.

 

In every other MMO out there that I have played, there's no difference in quests between 1 and Max for the most part.

 

Start any character in Champions Online for example, and it's the same exact quest line from 1 to 40. Start a character of the same race in WoW and you have the same choice in quest lines you do with every other character. Even if you pick a different race only the starter area is different. Get into the outlands and beyond and it's the same exact thing for every character. City of Heroes had maybe 2 lines from 1 to max when I played it.

 

So this idea that somehow the class quests being the same is a reason, simply doesn't hold water, because SWTOR already offers more class based content then any other MMO out there. In other MMO's playing a 2nd character of the same faction means going though much the same content over again.

 

 

 

Maybe... don't remember who it was. Just remember seeing one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen. That somehow the phrase Advanced Class was proof that they aren't really classes because it doesn't have the word class in it...

 

 

You're right, but unfortunately SWTOR is also different in that it's super quick and easy to get to 50. That, plus the legacy system and the signs are obvious they want you rolling alts.

 

 

I would agree with the OP, and submit that.... we already have enough ALTS to process all the alternative quests/areas that we missed. 4 runs is probably enough. I don't think we need 8.

[Lokiliesmith]

First of all, I agree with you...we should NOT allow people to change from an assassin to a Powertech....that is MAJOR class shift and something that would dramatically alter the game, especially as Bioware continues to balance the game.

 

However, the previous posts have targeted changing Advanced Classes (Sith Juggernaut to Marauder or Assassin to Sorcerer), staying WITHIN the main MAJOR class (Warrior and Inquisitor respectively).

 

Furthermore, I'm all for replay-ability and indeed, when rolling a NEW MAJOR class, one expects to see familiar content all the way to level cap.

 

But again, to emphasize the original point, neither the OP nor I are promoting the ability to change MAJOR class, just the Advanced Class specialization within...since many of the elements between the ACs are shared as noted in my original post.

 

It's still a stupid idea. An Assasin shares far more in common with the play style of a Juggernaut than it does with a Sorc. The Mercenary is closer in play style to the Sorc than the Assassin has ever been. The ACs are diverse enough from each other that they more resemble other classes than they do the opposing AC from the same class. What you have shared are a core of maybe 10 abilities, most of which end up falling by the wayside before the end of the game.

[VanorDM]

4 runs is probably enough. I don't think we need 8.

 

I'm pretty sure Bioware would disagree with you on that. Since the more runs though, the longer people sub. The longer people sub the more money they make.

 

A MMO dev will never do anything that they believe will shorten the subscription time of the player base.

[Sixt]

Based upon what you said you would want to change from a rogue to a warrior or rogue to priest in a game like WoW.

 

Not really true, more like from an enhancement shaman melee dps to an elemental shaman ranged dps or a resto shaman healing

 

or even more a feral cat druid (energy based mDPS) feral Bear druid (Rage based Tank) balance druid (mana based rDPS) resto druid (mana based heals)

 

None of these change the main class Druid, but totally change the play style and any one can be dual spec'd with any other

[Inarai]

Not really true, more like from an enhancement shaman melee dps to an elemental shaman ranged dps or a resto shaman healing

 

or even more a feral cat druid (energy based mDPS) feral Bear druid (Rage based Tank) balance druid (mana based rDPS) resto druid (mana based heals)

 

None of these change the main class Druid, but totally change the play style and any one can be dual spec'd with any other

 

No, those would be more akin to respeccing your tree inside the AC. It's just that part of the design of this game is for no class to be able to fulfill all three roles.

[VanorDM]

None of these change the main class Druid, but totally change the play style and any one can be dual spec'd with any other

 

Yes but the Druid does not exist in SWTOR, so what you can do with one isn't really a valid reason to change how classes work in this game.

 

The best that can be done with that is that the idea of a class that can do all 3 rolls can work.

[SWImara]

I am very glad that players are not allowed to switch AC, though I think dual-spec within AC will be great. Just saying, some disagree with ya OP.

[HKFortyEight]

Not really true, more like from an enhancement shaman melee dps to an elemental shaman ranged dps or a resto shaman healing

 

or even more a feral cat druid (energy based mDPS) feral Bear druid (Rage based Tank) balance druid (mana based rDPS) resto druid (mana based heals)

 

None of these change the main class Druid, but totally change the play style and any one can be dual spec'd with any other

 

Like what Inarai said it's more like specs the cat would be closest to the stealth assassin and the bear to tank assassin(but basically using the same resource) while the balance would be a dps speced Sorc and resto healer speced Sorc.

 

Another example switching for an Sith Assassin to a Sith Sorcerer would be like changing from a Warrior(2 DPS and Tank) to a Priest(except with 2 DPS and Healing)