"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Lauski]

I saw your example and you decided to only look at a couple abilities. If i am specced a particular way and have 8 abilities and 3 are shared in rotation with the other AC who specs s very particular way, that does not mean i can pull out those 3 abilities alone and make a false claim. I've played powertech, and I've played merc....vastly different. I have a marauder and am leveling a juggernaut....and your example is not representative of the ACs.

 

 

Based off this discussion I'd rather see BW make the change to lock in your AC at character creation so ican stop seeing requests like this.

 

 

You know, that'd be fine. I'd like to see 8 classes. Not 4 classes with 2 "advancement" areas in each.

 

Then I'd probably like to see 16 character creation slots too, if I like my legacy to reach everything (all 16 options) and have it all be playable on one server where I amassed my wealth.

 

Then, they also need to probably beef up their story and options a bit, with some alternative areas to level, not the same linear path with detours in the space shooter and pvp.

 

 

It would really be cool. Really would. I just think at the rate we're going, asking for the option to change our advanced spec would be easier to pull off.

[VanorDM]

More options. More choice.

 

That's not true, and never is true. It's as false as the idea that more options is a good thing.

 

Giving you the option between being shot in the arm or leg, does not make the choice a good one. You're still being shot.

 

More options can mean less choice, and would in this case.

 

devs in MMOs at some point have allowed respec'ing, dual spec'ing and etc. for whatever reasons.

 

Yet no MMO with a class based system lets you change your class. Which is what people are asking for her, to be allowed to change their class.

 

Just because something has happened in the past, does not mean it's the right thing, or that we should keep doing it, just because someone else did.

 

But still. The industry has moved to where it is and I'm fine with that.

 

If Bioware allows people to change AC's I have no indention of quitting the game over it. I do however fear if they allow it, it may very well mean the game is shut down sooner then it would otherwise.

 

But until they do change their mind, I will keep posting my opinion on the matter in hopes they see that there are a number of people against it.

Edited February 16, 2012 by VanorDM

[Varteras]

You know I've been watching debate threads about advanced class switching since the first one started and I must say this has got to be the most civil thread on it I have ever seen.

[Lauski]

That's not true, and never is true. It's as false as the idea that more options is a good thing.

 

Giving you the option between being shot in the arm or leg, does not make the choice a good one. You're still being shot.

 

More options can mean less choice, and would in this case.

 

The difference in this example is that you and I probably agree that either option, is a bad one. In our discussion here on Advanced AC, we do not agree.

 

 

Yet no MMO with a class based system lets you change your class. Which is what people are asking for her, to be allowed to change their class.

 

It's your opinion. I think it is a base spec, not an advanced class. You and I just can't help that we perceive this differently.

 

 

Just because something has happened in the past, does not mean it's the right thing, or that we should keep doing it, just because someone else did.

 

And when it comes to MMOs, well, some people want something new, and others want more of the same with light sabers. It's hard to say what approach to take. I'd rather see a lot of things done differently to make me more passionately desire to play this game, kind of like I did when I first got exposed to the genre, so I really hear you.... but, you and I might be the minority here. The majority may largely like seeing the same style of MMO, but with voice acting.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lauski

[Lauski]

You know I've been watching debate threads about advanced class switching since the first one started and I must say this has got to be the most civil thread on it I have ever seen.

 

 

Welcome to the suggestion forums. I largely find a better quality of life though anywhere but "general". I've thought about making a suggestion to delete the general forum.

 

Every game I've played that forum attracts trolls, trouble and something else that starts with a T. (I don't know what).

[tazdirector]

Well that would of been a different game then what we're currently playing. It's also not what you're really asking for, because if you switch from Guardian to Sentinel you still lose out on 2 of the 5 possible specs.

 

Well, that's true...but at least we're given the choice to choose out of the 5 possible specs.

 

Yet no MMO with a class based system lets you change your class. Which is what people are asking for her, to be allowed to change their class.

 

Very true. The difference is where you and I believe the definition of class is within SWTOR. At present, the line is drawn at the 2nd tier (AC) where I believe there are arguments to support that there are too many EXACT shared abilities, trees, etc to call two ACs COMPLETELY different classes and, instead, a restriction of talent trees within the SAME class.

 

You know I've been watching debate threads about advanced class switching since the first one started and I must say this has got to be the most civil thread on it I have ever seen.

 

Thanks for saying that...and I think that's a testament that constructive conversations and debates CAN happen as long as both sides restrict their arguments to just that...arguments. Not personal attacks.

 

I think everyone would agree that the majority of folks who are staying with this thread have held to a higher standard and I hope that continues. If we can all agree on something, let's agree to be civil!

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[aznthecapn]

No, my time is finite, whether I'm terminally ill or not.

 

"KNOWN finite"

 

Do you know when you're going to die? No? Then it isn't a known finite.

 

Read more carefully.

[Varteras]

Welcome to the suggestion forums. I largely find a better quality of life though anywhere but "general". I've thought about making a suggestion to delete the general forum.

 

Every game I've played that forum attracts trolls, trouble and something else that starts with a T. (I don't know what).

 

I would at least have heavy handed moderation of the general forums. If it looks like someone is trolling with a thread or it's a topic that has already been beaten to death just delete it. Personally I think they allow way too many garbage and repeat threads.

[Lauski]

If Bioware allows people to change AC's I have no indention of quitting the game over it. I do however fear if they allow it, it may very well mean the game is shut down sooner then it would otherwise.

 

But until they do change their mind, I will keep posting my opinion on the matter in hopes they see that there are a number of people against it.

 

 

Just so you know, I too care about the longevity of this game. I wanted to touch on this in full.

 

I care a lot.

 

I was posting in my first week of play that the leveling speed was too fast. Why was my character always receiving rest XP even logging off outside cantinas? Why didn't I have the option to dabble more widely in all the game's systems with just one character? Why was I out-leveling content? Why were people hitting 50 in the first week? Why after just 2 months can the -average- person obtain it very easily?

 

I don't like when I can see the end so fast. It's why I have alts. My main is still just 33 and I've been in before release.

 

There are far better things they can do, or could have done to improve the length of time people could play before getting "bored". But they didn't. They probably have some good plans is what I figure. It'd be killer like I suggested in my other post if we really saw all 8 "classes" as you call them really take on a life of their own. That'd be spot on, because you're right... AC's really are totally different entities in some respects.

 

They have a lot more doing they can still do in this regard. But, even if they don't, I don't feel like changing an AC is going to impact longevity of the game that drastically (my opinion of course).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lauski

[aznthecapn]

I've decided the Pro-AC camp has reached the point that they see the possibility of getting what they want is dwindling to a tiny speck on a very distant horizon and, rather than come up with new and original reasons to allow it, are resorting to just beating the rest of us over the head with the same nonsense while sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "NEENERNEENERNEENERNEENERNEENER" anytime someone confronts them with a reasonable argument why it shouldn't be allowed.

 

(That's a really long sentence.)

 

"Classes are different"

 

"No no they aren't"

 

"Bioware said they are"

 

"They are wrong"

 

"Its their game"

 

"Its bad design. Besides, they share the same skills"

 

"Less than 30% for most classes"

 

"They share a talent tree"

 

"The talent trees have subtle differences between ACs. Besides, its different gameplay"

 

"How are Guardians and Sentinels different?"

 

"Less so, but Inquisitor ACs and Smuggler ACs are very different"

 

"Its the same story"

 

"80% of questing is the same story"

 

"But its a story driven MMO, story matters"

 

This can go around in circles forever (the whole track has been lapped more times than the Daytona 500 - this century). I'd really just prefer a locked sticky at the top with an accumulation of reasoning from both sides and leave it there. Let developers check it when they forget. There are no and will be no new reasons. We've seen them all. The horse is dead, beaten, rotting and I'm not so much swinging my stick as digging a hole.

 

AC changing camp lost for now. Can we just call a truce for a bit? Give it 6, maybe 3, months and then we can rehash this and see what developers say?

[Varteras]

This can go around in circles forever (the whole track has been lapped more times than the Daytona 500 - this century). I'd really just prefer a locked sticky at the top with an accumulation of reasoning from both sides and leave it there. Let developers check it when they forget. There are no and will be no new reasons. We've seen them all. The horse is dead, beaten, rotting and I'm not so much swinging my stick as digging a hole.

 

AC changing camp lost for now. Can we just call a truce for a bit? Give it 6, maybe 3, months and then we can rehash this and see what developers say?

 

Personally I agree here. At this point the debate goes nowhere. Both sides have made their cases. The same cases that were made pre-beta, during beta, at launch, and now post launch. For the forseeable future it's not happening. This whole idea really does need to be laid to rest for awhile. Come back to it at a later date. The amount of thought and energy that has gone into these posts could be used so much more on things that are serious issues in the game.

[aznthecapn]

Personally I agree here. At this point the debate goes nowhere. Both sides have made their cases. The same cases that were made pre-beta, during beta, at launch, and now post launch. For the forseeable future it's not happening. This whole idea really does need to be laid to rest for awhile. Come back to it at a later date. The amount of thought and energy that has gone into these posts could be used so much more on things that are serious issues in the game.

 

I truly feel that we may see a change of views as the game progresses. Just as the game changes and grows, so too does the community. I still haven't hit level 50 on a character, I'm having fun jumping around classes (and not being tied to an MMO schedule for the first time in seven years). I may change my mind as I play. Others may as well. We need some time to step away from the discussion and view it with fresh eyes down the road.

[VanorDM]

The difference is where you and I believe the definition of class is within SWTOR.

 

I understand, and given that point of view I can understand why you feel the way you do. To you changing AC's is no different then changing specs.

 

I don't agree, to me changing AC's is changing your class, which is combination of your basic class and advanced class. To me this is no different then changing from a Mage to a Warrior.

 

I doubt very much that either of us is likely to change our mind at this point, given the length of the discussion and the civil tone, we have both made our points as clearly as is possible, so it's not just a simple matter of not understanding what the other person thinks.

 

Even if I didn't feel it was a bad idea, and would rob the game of one of the few meaningful choices you make. I would still be against it because it seems to me that the less reason you have to roll an alt, the less successful the MMO is in the long run.

 

CO, STO, and Rifts are all examples of recent MMO's that had broke with the traditional class system, and offered very little reason to roll alts. Of the three, CO and STO are now F2P and I wouldn't be surprised to see Rifts go that way soon.

[Lauski]

CO, STO, and Rifts are all examples of recent MMO's that had broke with the traditional class system, and offered very little reason to roll alts. Of the three, CO and STO are now F2P and I wouldn't be surprised to see Rifts go that way soon.

 

I've not played any of these 3, but I see where your concerns are coming from with respect to game longevity and how it ties in here.

 

 

I too will rest on this thread (unless I just can't help myself) and end with:

I'm in favor of allowing advanced class changes but WAY MORE in favor of them fleshing out the advanced classes to be more unique in ability and story, and have a better selection of leveling content. (Thus asserting them more fully as independent classes.)

 

 

Good talking with you all--

[tazdirector]

This was meant to post yesterday, but the interwebz at work went down.

 

I've decided the Pro-AC camp has...resorting to just beating the rest of us over the head with the same nonsense while sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "NEENERNEENERNEENERNEENERNEENER" anytime someone confronts them with a reasonable argument why it shouldn't be allowed.

 

Really? Yikes! If that's the case, I should find better use of my time.

 

I may change my mind as I play. Others may as well. We need some time to step away from the discussion and view it with fresh eyes down the road.

 

Great point...though I believe the horse ain't dead yet, there's only so much we can keep kicking it.

 

Though I believe I've stopped short of screaming NEENERNEENERNEENER, I do think we've presented Bioware with enough evidence from BOTH sides of the argument.

 

I will probably continue to patrol this thread...just because it's become near and dear to my heart.

 

In the meantime, thanks to everyone who's taken part of this discussion and we'll see most you again in three months.

[complexxLT]

Yes sure it is fundamentally a different class.. it only shares same quests and same gear tokens in raids which does not make them so different..

[inseeisyou]

play the other advanced class on the opposite faction? That's what I do.

 

This. Faction imbalance is bad enough, you can have a whole new story line with the other AC as the opposite faction. Sure you can't get 100k valor in a few hours as Republic, but we have... inferior animations? or wait a second um... argh, I dunno yeah I see why you want to stay Imperial.

[xxdragonragexx]

This basically says "quests are the same so I should be able to turn my mage into a rogue".

I will basically say "All MMO have the same quests from level 1 to max. Quests have nothing to do with Class differences".

[kjryx]

I'd love the option to respec advanced classes. And I can probably make semi-good arguments for it.

 

But then I thought about the only other MMO to have the same sort of system, at least on release. Everquest 2. You chose an archetype when you made the character (mage, rogue, fighter, priest if I recall correctly). Then you got to choose a sub-class (or perhaps you started with the subclass, been a while), then you got to choose your specialty. Once you had your specialty, you were done. Some of the specialties were restricted by alignment, but most were not. And, unless you were going to betray from one faction to another, you could never change your specialty.

 

Some good RP reasons for not allowing it would be something along the lines of the character mindset is too focused on this other way of doing things, so there's no way to go from one to another.

 

Eventually, whether to simplify the game or eliminate some confusion, they decided to just have people choose their specialty at character creation, rather than spend 10 levels as an archetype before getting into specifics.

[Counterintel]

I do not support.

 

Might as well ask for "Well, i made it to 50 I should be able to switch to any class at all, why do i have to spend all this time levelling to 50 AGAIN!? GAWD"

 

So, I do not support.

 

That is all.

[HKFortyEight]

This thread was to die peacefully let it be left alone mods lock or something.

[AzKnc]

Look, a thread in need of a bump.

 

YES to ac switching.

[aznthecapn]

At this stage the developers are aware of the desire and fully aware of any and all reasons for and against. They remain convinced they prefer it this way. People need to be allowed to play the game as it is and give time to step away from the discussion. Minds are likely to change (on both sides) for some and we may very well concoct new ideas as to why this is or isn't warranted. Badgering one another in the umpteenth thread isn't a productive way to discuss the topic and anything beyond discussing is redundant beyond measure.

 

Let's let this rest for a while.

[VulcanLogic]

play the other advanced class on the opposite faction? That's what I do.

 

This. It would do quite a bit to ease the faction imbalance if more people did that. Allowing advanced class changes would remove this incentive, and it's one of the many reasons I think they should never be in the game.

[Autorch]

What I've learned from this thread, thanks to being enlightened by several posters here, is that apples are equal to oranges. That's right! The phrase "comparing apples to oranges" to describe dissimilar things? Is totally wrong!

 

It's wrong, you see, because apples and oranges are both fruits! They both have seeds, both are mostly round in shape, both come from trees, both are eaten by people, and both are available as juices at my grocery store!

 

Because of those several similarities, that means they're actually equal and comparable! So apples really are the same as oranges!

 

That was sarcasm.

 

Seriously, you who are suggesting things like Mage to Rogue is the same as Sorcerer to Assassin, you have failed to correctly perform the most basic logical operation: identity and comparison.

 

Logic and facts are not matters of your opinion or belief. You may be entitled to the one but you are not entitled to the other. You believing or feeling or thinking that two objects are the same does not make them so, and providing a list of similarities does not make them so either. They're objects, they're objective, they exist outside of what you think about them. Objects can have a great many similarities yet still be an invalid comparison.

 

This post will now be followed by a flood of offended people who STILL don't understand identity and comparison, and will put forth a list of specifics and superficial differences to prove a point that, in their ignorance, they are actually making for the "other side" of the argument because their logic is bad at a 2+2=5 level.

 

Seriously. Have AC respec or don't. But if you haven't learned to think properly first, you really should get that straightened out before putting any more time into an MMO.