me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorc / Sage are over powered and are the reason this will be my last month playing... i'm glad to hear that. less cannon fodder on the battle field. more chances to face a worthy opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barzarel Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 and i might add here that this is a bad choice for pvp. this one is a decent resolve bar filler. you don't want to fill your opponents resolve bar when not needed and then not being able to stunn him/knock him back when you need it. it is one of the worst pvp skills - a tip: don't skill this for pvp if you want to survive encounters when alone. Wasen't saying it was amazing either was just pointing out those stuns and immobilizes come from talent, and many them actually fill resolve ridiciolously fast, compared with classes that can disable for same time, sometimes longer with pushbacks or knockdowns due to animations getting up, which our overload doesn't seem to have btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorc / Sage are over powered and are the reason this will be my last month playing... good informative post with lots of quantitative and qualitative data which makes you not look like a QQer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuicyFruits Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 no, i agree with you if the game would be out long enough to have a player base that palyed a while in edngame pvp and have experience with more than one class. but this is NOT YET THE CASE!!! goddamit, don't be so stupid! The game may still be young, but its still pretty obvious to the "mmo vets". See warhammer bright wizards. Everyone knew it was going to happen, FROM THE START. I dont want to play Star wars, Sorcs of the old republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The game may still be young, but its still pretty obvious to the "mmo vets". See warhammer bright wizards. Everyone knew it was going to happen, FROM THE START. I dont want to play Star wars, Sorcs of the old republic. Im an mmo vet, more so then probably more so then you, yet it is not obvious to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) The game may still be young, but its still pretty obvious to the "mmo vets". See warhammer bright wizards. Everyone knew it was going to happen, FROM THE START. I dont want to play Star wars, Sorcs of the old republic. i haven't seen any mmo vet sustaining your claims. i am one. i contradict you! what are you doing now? i see alot of self claimed mmo vets, and at first assume they are not lying. but then when they tell me stuff like a sages heal is viable during fight (not when braking LOS) and other stupid stuffs i know he was lying. many here are lying to give their post a credibility. a real vet though will see this pretty fast. and btw. the most mmo pvp vets are not even posting in this forums because usually in forums are only the crybabies! every mmo veteran know: forums a dominated by the pug! Edited February 13, 2012 by me_unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Sorc / Sage are over powered and are the reason this will be my last month playing... yes, My goal of pvping players in RL is coming to fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuicyFruits Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Im an mmo vet, more so then probably more so then you, yet it is not obvious to me.... I started with UO in 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I started with UO in 97. So did I, and have played most MMOs since that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltankhsd Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) did you read what i wrote? no i assume. for damage we spam all the time ONE SPELL! waiting for a proc to add in an instant. you just need to use ONE INTERRUPT and we cannot use our main spell and do not get our proc for a hard hitter. sure we have still a low hitter instant and our utilities. if we don't we would be wast on the battlefield, didn't we? I read most of the first post up until interrupts which is what I posted about. Soooo what are you crying about? I beat sorcs and sages all the time. The instant stuff doesn't concern me because generally I mitigate it fairly well. The spells that annoy me the most are force lightning/project because of their snares (yay grapple and jet charge) and heals because that prolongs the fight giving more chance to whittle down my large health pool. Edited February 13, 2012 by ltankhsd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Put it this way, I know players are bad when they whine about individual classes and not comps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I started with UO in 97. and? oh i forgot: doing something for a long time automatically makes you good at understanding it all. most people here are playing mmos for a long time but this does not make them pvp veterans with a good understadning of pvp! i have a friend in my guild playing in mmos pvp since '95. and let me tell you: he sucks at analyzing pvp and balance. though, after he learns slowly his class and the gameplay he starts to play well. but he never ever was good at judging before mechanics have been know and thourougly discussed over a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barzarel Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) i haven't seen any mmo vet sustaining your claims. i am one. i contradict you! what are you doing now? i see alot of self claimed mmo vets, and at first assume they are not lying. but then when they tell me stuff like a sages heal is viable during fight (not when braking LOS) and other stupid stuffs i know he was lying. many here are lying to give their post a credibility. a real vet though will see this pretty fast. and btw. the most mmo pvp vets are not even posting in this forums because usually in forums are only the crybabies! every mmo veteran know: forums a dominated by the pug! True, with knockbacks, interupts and possible stuns most wouldn't even try pulling a stunt like that. Only times i even try that when i have a bubble and not having heavy dps on me and my resolve bar is full, ill test waters with a dark heal see if its interupted before, throwing resurgence and dark infusion, but i would only do this if i am really desperate and see no alternatives. Edited February 13, 2012 by Barzarel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 No I didn't because I don't care. I beat sorcs and sages all the time. The instant stuff doesn't concern me because generally I mitigate it fairly well. The spells that annoy me the most are force lightning/project because of their snares (yay grapple and jet charge) and heals because that prolongs the fight giving more chance to whittle down my large health pool. you mean telekinetic throw. Project is big rock, throw is bunch of little rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veillantif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue isn't necessarily just the damage they are dealing, it's that despite their low armor/hp, they are requiring far too much effort to bring down, especially for the melee classes. Lets say I jump into a fight with a sage, he starts to spam his damage spell, I interrupt it. Great, I should have him. Except he then has the ability to throw me back, bubble, and sprint away, healing any damage I may have dealt. Another thread has pointed out that an easy fix may be to reorganize the spec trees, making it so there are not as many damage buffs at the bottom of the tree. Perhaps another way would be to give the warrior and knight more ways to combat ranged powers, as their interrupt has only a 4m range. And the the juggernaut and guardian have no movement abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwacko Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 shrug, if the game is broken, then fix the broken stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 No I didn't because I don't care. I beat sorcs and sages all the time. The instant stuff doesn't concern me because generally I mitigate it fairly well. The spells that annoy me the most are force lightning/project because of their snares (yay grapple and jet charge) and heals because that prolongs the fight giving more chance to whittle down my large health pool. then interrupt it. stunn me, grab me, jump on me and slow me. and no, the heals are worthless if a sage cannot manage to break line of sight. there are no dots that are harmfull enough to eat you while he prolongs the match with his healing! you do more damage to a dd sage that is healing than any dots he has on you is doing to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue isn't necessarily just the damage they are dealing, it's that despite their low armor/hp, they are requiring far too much effort to bring down, especially for the melee classes. Lets say I jump into a fight with a sage, he starts to spam his damage spell, I interrupt it. Great, I should have him. Except he then has the ability to throw me back, bubble, and sprint away, healing any damage I may have dealt. Another thread has pointed out that an easy fix may be to reorganize the spec trees, making it so there are not as many damage buffs at the bottom of the tree. Perhaps another way would be to give the warrior and knight more ways to combat ranged powers, as their interrupt has only a 4m range. And the the juggernaut and guardian have no movement abilities. And then you forceleap/graple them back to you, before you can heal...force run from melee will take you exactly 30m from the target. Not to mention your leap interrupts already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logisitcs Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The problem isn't them individually, it's when they're STACKED. 4-5 Sorc/Sages in a group means instant win, all that utility (more than any class) times 5 is ridiculous, and most of the time it's the Imps that have the numbers advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue isn't necessarily just the damage they are dealing, it's that despite their low armor/hp, they are requiring far too much effort to bring down, especially for the melee classes. Lets say I jump into a fight with a sage, he starts to spam his damage spell, I interrupt it. Great, I should have him. Except he then has the ability to throw me back, bubble, and sprint away, healing any damage I may have dealt. Another thread has pointed out that an easy fix may be to reorganize the spec trees, making it so there are not as many damage buffs at the bottom of the tree. Perhaps another way would be to give the warrior and knight more ways to combat ranged powers, as their interrupt has only a 4m range. And the the juggernaut and guardian have no movement abilities. any melee class burns a sage in seconds when he is close to us. and when we are running from melees we are not doing much damage. our cd of knockback is longer than for jump (even if unskilled). melees also have a slow, though i rarly see them using it. and so on and on and on.... an ever turnig wheel. learn from meles that know it better isntead of whining here about sages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lormif Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The problem isn't them individually, it's when they're STACKED. 4-5 Sorc/Sages in a group means instant win, all that utility (more than any class) times 5 is ridiculous, and most of the time it's the Imps that have the numbers advantage. And again that is true for any group of any combination of any ACs in the gamee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 The problem isn't them individually, it's when they're STACKED. 4-5 Sorc/Sages in a group means instant win, all that utility (more than any class) times 5 is ridiculous, and most of the time it's the Imps that have the numbers advantage. i'll bet my salary for a month that if you stack 8 sentinels and let them death match against 8 sorcs it ends with 5 sentinels alive. they can do their full damge even while running after you. the sorcs can't. the first 3 senitnels die due to stunns etc. at the beginning the 8 sorcs die due to cooldown on them and the other sentinels full resolve bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 First, let me explain the intention of this thread: this game is quite new, most people barely have leveled one char to max level (if at all) and thus have at most some insight on class mechanics for at best one or two classes. though, understanding the other classes is the most important thing when you fighting them and it is nothing you will ever learn only buy fighting in warzones. many people think so. that's why we hear so many stupid things of superhero classes being able to do everything at its best. now to me: i have a nearly 50 sentinel (my first char) and a 50 sage (which i started second and is now my main). i also have a midlevel commando. did i switched from sentinel to sage because sentinel is underpowered or sage is overpowered? no. i switched because i find the gameplay of a sentinel too boring, not my taste. it is too simple, to straight forward. sentinel is mainly just putting your max dmg on your victim while you are running after him, while sage/sorc is more playing with utilities to avoid damage while slowly (in comparison) killing the opponent. yes, even though to me it seems that sentinels need the most hotkeys of all classes it still has a very simple gameplay. when you got used to the rotation to apply your damage then there isn't much complexity left. but now engough about sentinels. lets get back to the tpoic: how to beat a sorc/sage. second: i am talking only about dd sages/sorcs and not about heal specced sages! i have only a view or even no insight about the class mechanic of the other classes than i mentioned above. third: lets take a short look on the three types of sages: The Telekinetiks Sage (middle tree) - this means he has at least 31 points in the Telekinetiks Tree.The Balance Sage (the right/class common tree) - also means at least 31 points withinThe hybrid - though here are some variants that may mean some significant differences. All three have the following in common: they all have one spall they spam until they get a proc that makes a strong long time cast spell instant. While the Telekinetiks Sage can only make one such spell worth to cast instant (on a 6s cd) the hybrid and the Balance have two such spells (the one from telekinetics and a common one on a 15sec cd). though the hybrid misses the 31 points spells where the one from the balance tree is an instant dot. so what is the most important utility other classes can use against a sage/sorc? it is interrupt! i'm not 100% sure as i didn't looked into the description of all classes but i think all have an instant interrupt ability (correct me if i am wrong). what makes interrupt so good against sages/sorcs? well, it interrupts the current spell and prevents for several seconds using the same one again. which spells should i interrupt? interrupt the spame spell - for telekinetiks it is a 1.5s cast one and for balance it is the channeled one. lets first look at the two pure speccs. as i briefly explained above all sages rely on spamming one spell to get a proc for an additional instant. they use these instants to damage you while they are using their utility spells increase distance to you. if you interrupt the spam spell you basically remove all their damage because they do not get their procc for instant casting a strong damage spell and they also cannot use their spam spell which makes the very most of their damage. so there are two things every one should keep in mind when fighting a sage/sorc: keep your interrupt on cd and always interrupt their spamming spell. and for melees: the first thing you do when you are in range is SLOW them, so they rarely get out of distance too much to catch up fast enough. now lets see in details why this is so bad for sage/sorcerers: Telekinetiks - they spam this 1.5s spell. if you interrupt it they need to either cast long time casts spells or witch to the channeled one. though the channeled one will not trigger the procc for instant casts and also will lose damage if being hit. Balance - actually the same as above. only here the spamed spell is the channeld one. also balance has some stronger damage over time abilities and its 31points talent is an instant + he has a 15s cd aoe instant in the middle of the tree. so a balance cage will do a bit better in such a situation than a telekinetiks. Hybrid: well, for most hbrids it is the same as for telekinetiks, though they use the same spell to spam as the balance sages. But i admit that as hybrid you could use a build which would allow you to switch to the 1.5s spamming spell without such a big drawback of increased cast time when being hit (though there still remains a drawback!). But the hybrid gives up several passive dmg increasing talents for more active ones which more or less all are build around the channeld spam cast. so even if at first seems that a hybrid won't suffer so much like the other pure speccs he still does a lot. the main advantage of the hybrid is not his sustained damage (which actually is not really the case), it is the use of utilities from both trees. he can better kite and keep the enemy on distance. but if you interrupt his main spamming spell he has not much what he can fire at you when he is on distance so my personal conclusion is: both pure speccs are actually underpowered, while the balance one being the slightly better one of them two. And the hybrid specc is not overpowered it is actually a very well balanced and fun to play playstyle. I observed the nearly no one uses interrupts against me. very very rarly i see people doing this and then only one time and often they only do it when i try to cast a long time cast heal. this is STUPID! don't waste the interrupt on the heal! a damage sage/sorcerer heals **** especially while you are hitting him. what he can heal even without the increased cast time due to hits is at best as much as your normal damage you do to him in the same time. i only heal myself if i managed to break LOS or am out of distance. a sentinel being watchmann is one of the deadliest opponents i can face if palyed well. his damage is enormous and his kick is on a 6sec cd, with reduced force jump cd and at best no minimal distance for it. his dot's are eating me even when i manage to get a bit out of range. it is a hard fight but not an impossible. similar i observed guardians being very hard if played well. about other classes i do not know much, but i observed that also there a good player can be deadly to me. but i very rarely saw any such one also observe that the sage does the lowest or at least one of the lowest single target dps in pvp. nearly all of his damage is mitigated by armor and his damage spikes are less than for any other class. the clues are his utilities to prevent others damage. don't get fooled by high total damage in warzones as they are due to AOE!!! and because most players are actually ignoring a range dd Final words: I know many people won't stop flaming and crying about the overpowerness of the sorcs and sages. and of course there are some balance problems overall. but is far too early for a witch hunt. you can't fight nor judge a class that you do not really understand and you can't learn to understand it without playing it yourself or training in duels with a friend for a longer time. and consider that most probalby your friend you are training with maybe still didn't know to play its class for the best. This game is still damn new! just think about it please! It is personally important to me because the sage/sorcs playstyle is the only one i do not find boring. p.s. Thank you all that read this wall of text By spending so much time to teach ppl how to kill you, it means only 1 thing.... Your class is OVERPOWERED and to "avoid" get it nerfed...u try to make ppl have more chances to kill you.... Let me tell some things : 1st ) You quit 1 melee class to play 1 OP ranged class (i have myself melee class and i know how impossible to kill them is on huttball...) 2nd ) Nerf WONT change the playstyle that u love, it will reduce your dmg 3rd ) Fine now...u told ppl how to kill sorcs, if they ever manage to do it... Sooo...how about i teach ppl how to kill sentinels, or snipers, or any other class? Then we go again to SORC/SAGE OP as hell...since they ll know how to counter the other classes in game... You achieved nothing... Only dumb ppl will fall for your post.. 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JuicyFruits Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The issue isn't necessarily just the damage they are dealing, it's that despite their low armor/hp, they are requiring far too much effort to bring down, especially for the melee classes. exactly. Let me walk you how a fight vs a sorc look, for a melee. -Start fighting, first hit absorbed by the bubble. -He KBs -I am rooted in place for 2 seconds, waiting as he start unleashing the fury on me. -Finally the roots end! I use my gap closer and land IN HIS FACE, HECK YEAH! -The combat can finally really begin, I'm rea- I get stunned. -I quickly break the stun! -He force speed away, while I try to catch him at a snail pace, because I already used my gap closer. -I Finally catch him again! BASHHHH and YES I BREAK THE BUBBLE, HES GONNA DIEE! -He cast another bubble FUUUUUUU (this is really how I sound when I pvp. Yes, nerd rage). Basically, before any melee can start doing any real damage to a sorc, the melee will be at 50% health and the sorc still at 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me_unknown Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 By spending so much time to teach ppl how to kill you, it means only 1 thing.... Your class is OVERPOWERED and to "avoid" get it nerfed...u try to make ppl have more chances to kill you.... Let me tell some things : 1st ) You quit 1 melee class to play 1 OP ranged class (i have myself melee class and i know how impossible to kill them is on huttball...) i still play my sentinel. i switched to sage because i allways tend to play mage style classes in mmos. i prefer utility over pure damge. its my playstyle taste. 2nd ) Nerf WONT change the playstyle that u love, it will reduce your dmg it depends what you nerf. if you nerf my utilities it will. and what damage actually do you want to nerf on the sage? it already has BY FAR THE LOWEST OF ALL CLASSES!!!!!! 3rd ) Fine now...u told ppl how to kill sorcs, if they ever manage to do it... Sooo...how about i teach ppl how to kill sentinels, or snipers, or any other class? Then we go again to SORC/SAGE OP as hell...since they ll know how to counter the other classes in game... lol no! i didn't! i just showed people that there is a widly accessable easy to use ability that no one seems to use against us. no, ofcourse it is not that simpe that interrupt alone will kill us. if so we would be the MOST UNDERPOWERED class. You achieved nothing... Only dumb ppl will fall for your post.. says the dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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