How to beat a Sorcerer/sage or why they arn't overpowered ;)

[me_unknown]

First, let me explain the intention of this thread:

this game is quite new, most people barely have leveled one char to max level (if at all) and thus have at most some insight on class mechanics for at best one or two classes.

 

though, understanding the other classes is the most important thing when you fighting them and it is nothing you will ever learn only buy fighting in warzones. many people think so. that's why we hear so many stupid things of superhero classes being able to do everything at its best.

 

now to me:

i have a nearly 50 sentinel (my first char) and a 50 sage (which i started second and is now my main). i also have a midlevel commando.

 

did i switched from sentinel to sage because sentinel is underpowered or sage is overpowered? no.

 

i switched because i find the gameplay of a sentinel too boring, not my taste. it is too simple, to straight forward. sentinel is mainly just putting your max dmg on your victim while you are running after him, while sage/sorc is more playing with utilities to avoid damage while slowly (in comparison) killing the opponent.

 

yes, even though to me it seems that sentinels need the most hotkeys of all classes it still has a very simple gameplay. when you got used to the rotation to apply your damage then there isn't much complexity left.

 

but now engough about sentinels. lets get back to the tpoic: how to beat a sorc/sage.

 

second: i am talking only about dd sages/sorcs and not about heal specced sages! i have only a view or even no insight about the class mechanic of the other classes than i mentioned above.

 

third: lets take a short look on the three types of sages:

1. The Telekinetiks Sage (middle tree) - this means he has at least 31 points in the Telekinetiks Tree.
   
2. The Balance Sage (the right/class common tree) - also means at least 31 points within
   
3. The hybrid - though here are some variants that may mean some significant differences.
   

 

All three have the following in common: they all have one spall they spam until they get a proc that makes a strong long time cast spell instant. While the Telekinetiks Sage can only make one such spell worth to cast instant (on a 6s cd) the hybrid and the Balance have two such spells (the one from telekinetics and a common one on a 15sec cd).

 

though the hybrid misses the 31 points spells where the one from the balance tree is an instant dot.

 

so what is the most important utility other classes can use against a sage/sorc?

 

it is interrupt!

 

i'm not 100% sure as i didn't looked into the description of all classes but i think all have an instant interrupt ability (correct me if i am wrong).

 

what makes interrupt so good against sages/sorcs?

well, it interrupts the current spell and prevents for several seconds using the same one again.

 

which spells should i interrupt?

interrupt the spame spell - for telekinetiks it is a 1.5s cast one and for balance it is the channeled one.

 

lets first look at the two pure speccs. as i briefly explained above all sages rely on spamming one spell to get a proc for an additional instant. they use these instants to damage you while they are using their utility spells increase distance to you.

if you interrupt the spam spell you basically remove all their damage because they do not get their procc for instant casting a strong damage spell and they also cannot use their spam spell which makes the very most of their damage.

 

so there are two things every one should keep in mind when fighting a sage/sorc:

keep your interrupt on cd and always interrupt their spamming spell.

 

and for melees: the first thing you do when you are in range is SLOW them, so they rarely get out of distance too much to catch up fast enough.

 

 

now lets see in details why this is so bad for sage/sorcerers:

• Telekinetiks - they spam this 1.5s spell. if you interrupt it they need to either cast long time casts spells or witch to the channeled one. though the channeled one will not trigger the procc for instant casts and also will lose damage if being hit.
  
• Balance - actually the same as above. only here the spamed spell is the channeld one. also balance has some stronger damage over time abilities and its 31points talent is an instant + he has a 15s cd aoe instant in the middle of the tree. so a balance cage will do a bit better in such a situation than a telekinetiks.
  
• Hybrid: well, for most hbrids it is the same as for telekinetiks, though they use the same spell to spam as the balance sages.
  But i admit that as hybrid you could use a build which would allow you to switch to the 1.5s spamming spell without such a big drawback of increased cast time when being hit (though there still remains a drawback!).
   
  But the hybrid gives up several passive dmg increasing talents for more active ones which more or less all are build around the channeld spam cast. so even if at first seems that a hybrid won't suffer so much like the other pure speccs he still does a lot.
   
  the main advantage of the hybrid is not his sustained damage (which actually is not really the case), it is the use of utilities from both trees. he can better kite and keep the enemy on distance. but if you interrupt his main spamming spell he has not much what he can fire at you when he is on distance
  

 

so my personal conclusion is: both pure speccs are actually underpowered, while the balance one being the slightly better one of them two. And the hybrid specc is not overpowered it is actually a very well balanced and fun to play playstyle.

 

I observed the nearly no one uses interrupts against me. very very rarly i see people doing this and then only one time and often they only do it when i try to cast a long time cast heal. this is STUPID! don't waste the interrupt on the heal!

 

a damage sage/sorcerer heals **** especially while you are hitting him. what he can heal even without the increased cast time due to hits is at best as much as your normal damage you do to him in the same time. i only heal myself if i managed to break LOS or am out of distance.

 

a sentinel being watchmann is one of the deadliest opponents i can face if palyed well. his damage is enormous and his kick is on a 6sec cd, with reduced force jump cd and at best no minimal distance for it. his dot's are eating me even when i manage to get a bit out of range.

it is a hard fight but not an impossible.

 

similar i observed guardians being very hard if played well.

 

about other classes i do not know much, but i observed that also there a good player can be deadly to me. but i very rarely saw any such one

 

also observe that the sage does the lowest or at least one of the lowest single target dps in pvp. nearly all of his damage is mitigated by armor and his damage spikes are less than for any other class. the clues are his utilities to prevent others damage.

 

don't get fooled by high total damage in warzones as they are due to AOE!!!

and because most players are actually ignoring a range dd

 

Final words:

I know many people won't stop flaming and crying about the overpowerness of the sorcs and sages. and of course there are some balance problems overall. but is far too early for a witch hunt.

 

you can't fight nor judge a class that you do not really understand and you can't learn to understand it without playing it yourself or training in duels with a friend for a longer time. and consider that most probalby your friend you are training with maybe still didn't know to play its class for the best. This game is still damn new!

 

just think about it please! It is personally important to me because the sage/sorcs playstyle is the only one i do not find boring.

 

p.s. Thank you all that read this wall of text

[silvercgull]

He's right,

 

Not OP classes just not understood by alot.

Edited February 13, 2012 by silvercgull

[Zlashie]

so my personal conclusion is: both pure speccs are actually underpowered, while the balance one being the slightly better one of them two. And the hybrid specc is not overpowered it is actually a very well balanced and fun to play playstyle.

 

 

This made me lol. Actually let me change that to: This made me ROFL IRL.

 

Also look at this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=271581

 

I call your thread a poor attempt to keep your class on its pedestal

Edited February 13, 2012 by Zlashie

[Kveldur]

Yeah have to aggree that sorc are op atm, bad enough when you meet a really good sorc playing against you but when you enter hutball empire vs empire and see that 80% of the warzone players are Inquisitards I die a little inside, lighting spamm over and over again with every player bubbled throught the whole match makes Huttball even more boring warzone that it already is.

[silvercgull]

yeah have to aggree that sorc are op atm, bad enough when you meet a really good sorc playing against you but when you enter hutball empire vs empire and see that 80% of the warzone players are inquisitards i die a little inside, lighting spamm over and over again with every player bubbled throught the whole match makes huttball even more boring warzone that it already is.

 

then nerf empire who makes up %75 population balance !!!

 

 

If 3/4 of players are empire then %40 of those are sorcs !!!

 

 

Nerf empire and easy fix !!!!

[me_unknown]

This made me lol.

 

Also look at this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=271581

 

I call your thread a poor attempt to keep your class on its pedestal

 

yes i already know this thread. and i disagree with most of it. if you look at it in close you see one is calling this spell, the other this one etc.

 

it is a stupid way to compare and does not reflect gamemechanics of BOTH classes that interact with each other while they are fighting.

 

i was expecting such posts like yours because the most peopel that do not understand game mechanics are too stubborn and prefere ignoring it because it is easier to call out overpowered instead of learning the classes they fight.

 

start playing a sage/sorcerer and fight players that know there class and you will see how wrong you are.

 

i admit that the most fights i had 1vs1 i won. but in EVERY SINGLE ONE of this i can tell you how much wrong my opponent played and how close he actually was to win if he would knew how my class works.

 

edit: oh and it seems you didn't read my post at all. i explained how you could make every fight against a sorcerer/sage much much more easier. try it out at least before you cry again in this thread.

Edited February 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[Wikar]

Mercs (Commandos) don't have interrupt, melees have 4m range interrupt, and to counter this sorc\sages have slow\stun\knockback\sprint spells.

 

You are also not locking down sage\sorcs with interrupts, since their arsenal is huge with instants\dots and other things to do - even if you out of mind what to press now, while interrupted, you can just start healing self or sprinting behind a pilar, creating LoS .

 

Sorcs\sages are incredible if you using all their tools. Basicaly only marauders in open field can overdamage\overlife them (thanks to charge, stacking surge with 100% chance to crit on main nuke and bubble\vanish if needed).

 

Id say big heals interrupted at the end of cast will help alot more than interrupting any damage filler (between instants) spell.

[me_unknown]

Yeah have to aggree that sorc are op atm, bad enough when you meet a really good sorc playing against you but when you enter hutball empire vs empire and see that 80% of the warzone players are Inquisitards I die a little inside, lighting spamm over and over again with every player bubbled throught the whole match makes Huttball even more boring warzone that it already is.

 

you don't die because the sorcerers are overpowered you die because your team is playing stupid. what stops your team from hunting and interrupting the sorcerers?

 

you describe the very biggest problem: most players are letting sorcerers and any kind of range dd shooting from distance without stopping them. jump to them, grab them chase them and none of them will do much damage anymore!

 

i observed it nearly every game: NO ONE IS DOING THIS! MOST PLAYERS ARE HORRIBLE!

[Zlashie]

yes i already know this thread. and i disagree with most of it. if you look at it in close you see one is calling this spell, the other this one etc.

 

it is a stupid way to compare and does not reflect gamemechanics of BOTH classes that interact with each other while they are fighting.

 

i was expecting such posts like yours because the most peopel that do not understand game mechanics are too stubborn and prefere ignoring it because it is easier to call out overpowered instead of learning the classes they fight.

 

start playing a sage/sorcerer and fight players that know there class and you will see how wrong you are.

 

i admit that the most fights i had 1vs1 i won. but in EVERY SINGLE ONE of this i can tell you how much wrong my opponent played and how close he actually was to win if he would knew how my class works.

 

I had a sage during beta. Most of the 50s sages in my guild agree that the sage/sorc class has way too much stuff compared to other classes.

 

I have 11 years of online gaming experience.

 

Why is the thread I linked a good example? Because it analyzes the core of both classes, not based on player skills or player mechanics but because of the core itself.

 

An example: Your PC is running a faster processor than mine. Its a fact. Maybe I overclocked mine to be on par with yours but it doesnt change the fact that the core itself is better.

 

It should be logical. If not point me to another class that has all the following mechanics:

 

- Healing

- "Speed" Healing

- High Damage

- DoTs

- Bubble

- Knockback

- Slow

- Root

- Stun

- Sprint

- Breakable CC / CC Locks

- Slow effect on basic attack

 

Yup. Totally underpowered class

Edited February 13, 2012 by Zlashie

[me_unknown]

Mercs (Commandos) don't have interrupt,

as i said, i do not know this.

 

melees have 4m range interrupt, and to counter this sorc\sages have slow\stun\knockback\sprint spells.

here you didn't understand the whole pouint: it doesnt matter that a sroc/sage can knock back you or stun you, you still can interrupt them, and slow them. who does it better is a matter of players skill!

 

You are also not locking down sage\sorcs with interrupts, since their arsenal is huge with instants\dots and other things to do -

you have no clue of what you are talking.

 

80% dmg comes from the one spammed spell. there are three dots:

1. has no cd, is an instant cast and does very low damage. it is used for a proc in one kind of build or has its damaged increased in the other one. but even then it is a low dps skill

 

2. the other dot is a 2s cast one whith a 15s cd. it is only used when we get the presence of mind proc making it instant and increasing its damge by 20%. so if you lock down our spammed chaneled spell we cannot really use this.

 

3. is the 31 points talent skill in th balance tree.

 

4. the other instant we have must be skilled in the balance tree to not being total crap and is even then so bad that it is only a filler on the run! it does less damage then both spaming spells.

 

even if you out of mind what to press now, while interrupted, you can just start healing self or sprinting behind a pilar, creating LoS .

healing yourself? read my post? even without the interrupts from hits you heal LESS then the damage you get during that cast time.

 

of course we can sprint if not on cd. but what do you want? a guaranteed win? if a sorcerer or sage just stands there without an ability to run he will LOSE EVERY FIGHT because he does LESS DAMAMGE then he EATS!

 

Id say big heals interrupted at the end of cast will help alot more than interrupting any damage filler (between instants) spell.

 

totally wrong for a damage sage. and we are not talking here about heal sages / sorcerers.

 

you sir have absolutely no understanding of sages/sorcerers! and you are the reason for this many false information and the superhero image of the sorcerer!

 

i beg you, paly one at least until level 40 and judge then!

[me_unknown]

I had a sage during beta. Most of the 50s sages in my guild agree that the sage/sorc class has way too much stuff compared to other classes.

of course they do. no wonder if they have the same pvp experience in warzones like me, facing tons of opponents having no clue about the sage/sorcerer class.

 

as i already said, i win the very most fights quite easy. and it is easy to gain the impression of being overpowered. but you and all your friends are missing oe thing: they fight people that do NOT KNOW how to fight a sage/sorcerer!

 

it is easier to play a sorcerer/sage with low skills against a low skilled melee then vice versa. but we do not intent to balance only around low skills, do we?

 

I have 11 years of online gaming experience.

 

Why is the thread I linked a good example? Because it analyzes the core of both classes, not based on player skills or player mechanics but because of the core itself.

 

An example: Your PC is running a faster processor than mine. Its a fact. Maybe I overclocked mine to be on par with yours but it doesnt change the fact that the core itself is better.

 

It should be logical. If not point me to another class that has all the following mechanics:

 

- Healing

- "Speed" Healing

- High Damage

- DoTs

- Bubble

- Knockback

- Slow

- Root

- Stun

- Sprint

- Breakable CC / CC Locks

- Slow effect on basic attack

 

Yup. Totally underpowered class

 

hmm, so if a class has heal but heals less then it eats damage in the same time,

does far less damage to its target then its target does to him if no stunns/kiting is used,

a single interrupt of its main spell (the spammed one) is enough to stop around 80% (or even more) of its total damage,

don't you think this class acutally NEEDS a lot of utility spells?

 

sorry, but your whole argumention demonstrates quite impressively that you are simply lieing about your pvp and class mechanics understanding. you don't know what you are talking about and you lack of logic

Edited February 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[nowocinm]

The op part of the sage is that pebble throw has a slow. Remove the slow and the melee QQ disappears. Melee players are the ones who start every QQ thread about sorcs/mercs. You are all pathetic Ty for giving the classes you claim as OP free kills because you refuse to understand your opponent

 

Not going to tell you L2P but know your enemy before you fight him and you might actually have nothing to QQ about.

 

/gasp

[da_krall]

First

I observed the nearly no one uses interrupts against me. very very rarly i see people doing this and then only one time and often they only do it when i try to cast a long time cast heal. this is STUPID! don't waste the interrupt on the heal!

 

 

I hardly see anyone use interupts at all, for any spells or heals. Watched 6 people beat on a merc healer the other day and i was the only person using the interupt, they did however all mass stun him so his resolve bar was full in the first 2 seconds of the fight. They then moaned in Op chat that he was to over powered and we couldnt win so stopped playing the game and farmed.....

Edited February 13, 2012 by da_krall

[da_krall]

The op part of the sage is that pebble throw has a slow. Remove the slow and the melee QQ disappears. Melee players are the ones who start every QQ thread about sorcs/mercs. You are all pathetic Ty for giving the classes you claim as OP free kills because you refuse to understand your opponent

 

Not going to tell you L2P but know your enemy before you fight him and you might actually have nothing to QQ about.

 

/gasp

 

Cool, if you remove the ability for melee to do 3 times as much single target damage than my sorc then you have a deal!!!

[Zlashie]

hmm, so if a class has heal but heals less then it eats damage in the same time,

does far less damage to its target then its target does to him if no stunns/kiting is used,

a single interrupt of its main spell (the spammed one) is enough to stop around 80% (or even more) of its total damage,

don't you think this class acutally NEEDS a lot of utility spells?

 

sorry, but your whole argumention demonstrates quite impressively that you are simply lieing about your pvp and class mechanics understanding. you don't know what you are talking about and you lack of logic

 

Again a poor attempt to stay on your pedestal.

 

A well geared sorc/sage heals very well even in dps specc.. Heck my scoundrel scrapper can land 4.8k heals.

 

Sure if you stand still and spam your damage abilities your class probably sux but thats not my problem, thats your problem.

 

I have pvp'ed enough to know when a class has too much utility, and the sage/sorc is a very good example of how their utility give them a heavy upperhand in pvp.

 

you keep focusing on this "interupt" thing, yet its funny. All the sorc I have seen, seem to not have the same problem with interupts as you have. Infact most of them laugh at me when I interupt them. And unfortunately for me my interupt has a 12 seconds cooldown and it only interupts you for 4seconds. 4 seconds is 3 GCDs. By the time my interupt is ready I am allready dead, unless I forfeit the fight myself.

 

Again, the Core of the sage/sorc is much stronger than any other class. If you dont feel overpowered than you are simply not using all the cards at your disposal

[me_unknown]

The op part of the sage is that pebble throw has a slow. Remove the slow and the melee QQ disappears. Melee players are the ones who start every QQ thread about sorcs/mercs. You are all pathetic Ty for giving the classes you claim as OP free kills because you refuse to understand your opponent

 

Not going to tell you L2P but know your enemy before you fight him and you might actually have nothing to QQ about.

 

/gasp

 

only stupid melee palyers. i do not intend you to offend you but actually the melee classes are the strongest counterclasses for sorcerer/sages!

 

without offending you i really must tell you that if you play a melee class you either are too low on level or you still have a lot to learn.

 

edit: or you play a sentinel with combat spec, which seems to me to be the worst pvp spec. use wathcman or focus (though i am not sure if focus lower damage is a good choice for other opponents).

Edited February 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[klathnagma]

Also look at this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=271581

That thread is full of fail. One guy puting up a list of skills and saying "look i wrote down their skills so they are overpowered, yet I destroy every sorc around and do 500k damage in a wz. said that sorcs are op not my class".

 

If you have problems with sorcs being a geared level 50 you are bad, period.

 

If sorcs anoy you at level 10 well, they have most of their stuff early, eat it and level up.

[Kulex]

This thread made me lol. I'm sorry, but if you interrupt my Telekinetic Throw i'm still going to kill you. Its not like i'm going to stand there for 4 seconds doing nothing. I will DoT you and i still have Telekinetic Wave plus Project to hit you with. A good Sage/Sorcerer does not lose to interrupt, especially if they are using the Hybrid spec.

[me_unknown]

Again a poor attempt to stay on your pedestal.

 

A well geared sorc/sage heals very well even in dps specc..

 

no he doesn'T. it is a 2.5s (or was it 3s?) cast which gets even longer with very most hits and it heals less then anything you could do in 3 sec. it might out heal a bit your damage you do in 3s if the heal crits.

 

you are demonstrating very well that you do not know what you are talking about. keep that up. maybe more people that till now only beleived your words without thinking for them selfs are seeing what a ******** you are talking.

 

edit: oh and not to forget: of course it could be that your class actually is weak or underpowered or has a special weakness agains sages/sorcerers but this does not mean that sages/sorcerers are overall overpwoered.

 

did you palyed them all?

Edited February 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[Wikar]

Damn, you are just bad, after "80% of damage coming from chanelled spell" i have no faith in arguing with you. Definately not overpowered and truly balanced class in this, worst possible, playstyle, interrupt is indeed bring them to the ground and free kill

 

 

I have 50 sorc, and i love it.

[nowocinm]

only stupid melee palyers. i do not intend you to offend you but actually the melee classes are the strongest counterclasses for sorcerer/sages!

 

without offending you i really must tell you that if you play a melee class you either are too low on level or you still have a lot to learn.

 

edit: or you play a sentinel with combat spec, which seems to me to be the worst pvp spec. use wathcman or focus (though i am not sure if focus lower damage is a good choice for other opponents).

 

I'm ranged and I was saying that all the people disagreeing with you are melee, bad ones at that. Dunno how melee cant compete against classes that have to cast 75% of their damage. I wish i could stop almost all of my enemies damage with a 6 second cooldown. All this comes from the commando who never gets interrupted

[svartalfimposter]

Maybe I missed it. Can't find interrupt on my Commando's power lists.

[MarcoMontana]

Trying to Interrupt from a 10m range whilst you are destroyed by the Sorc / Sage ......... Sure!

[me_unknown]

Damn, you are just bad, after "80% of damage coming from chanelled spell" i have no faith in arguing with you. Definately not overpowered and truly balanced class in this, worst possible, playstyle, interrupt is indeed bring them to the ground and free kill

 

 

I have 50 sorc, and i love it.

 

you undestood me wrong. not the channeld spell damage alone is 80%. but you need it for the insta proc!

 

ofcourse if you are let alone and can spam also your aoe spells your spamming spell won't contribute that much. but when you fight one on one than preventing the spamming spell is stopping 80% of your damage because you won't get the instant proc, and won't be able to effectivly cast any long time cast spells.

 

what experience did you have with opponents permanently interrupting your main spell? i bet none!

[me_unknown]

Trying to Interrupt from a 10m range whilst you are destroyed by the Sorc / Sage ......... Sure!

 

and you have no way to get close to him? no?

 

sad but true: l2p!